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Inferno And Datacores

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Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol
#41 - 2012-04-28 20:22:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Aron Croup
Damn, this sucks.

I've got 4 characters doing research, two of which I started and trained specifically for the purpose of having a passive income. It took about 3 months pr. character to get the relevant skills, so combined that's a year worth of skill training, some 500m in skillbooks and implants not to metion all the work going into boring grinding of missions to gain the necessary standings.

Dear CCP, I implore you to really think this through before you completely negate the purpose of 2 of my characters, render a year worth of skill training useless and rob me of all my work on this.

Fixing the FiS part of EVE doesn't mean it all has to be nerfed into the ground.

/Croup
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol
#42 - 2012-04-28 20:43:23 UTC
To those who don't know here is a breakdown the amount of ISK earned with Research Agents:

With lvl 5 negotian, lvl 5 in the relevant research skill and lvl 4 agent you can earn around 120 RP's pr. day in the high value category.


  • That's 2.4 datacores pr. day pr. agent.
  • You can have six agents so that's 14.4 datacores.
  • Prices on datacores vary greatly, but normally ranges between 150k and 300k, so that's an average of 225k.
  • 14.4 x 225k = 3.24m ISK


So, if we assume you have done this for all three characters on your account you can now in total earn:

3.24m ISK x 3 characters x 30 days = 291m ISK pr month.

That's not even close to being a PLEX.

Also, consider that players who chose to do this normally train a character on a separate account and then transfer it once it's ready to make ISK. That means the initial investment is 3 months of game time which translates into 3 plex of around 500m plus a character transfer fee.

That's a 2b ISK investment pr. character, so each character will have to run research for almost 2 years before you see a return on your initial investment.

Whomever said this was an ISK printing machine needs to learn the facts.

/Aron
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol
#43 - 2012-04-29 07:56:24 UTC
Oh and one final point.

There is no way this can ever become a problem for the EVE economy, for two reasons.

1: The datacore system does not introduce any new ISK into EVE.
2: If more people start doing research, the price on datacores will simply go down.

Sometimes you just gotta wonder if these guys even play their own game.

/Aron
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
#44 - 2012-04-29 08:55:49 UTC
I grinded lvl 4 R and D agents too, was about to train the skills for datacores, all suspended for now Cry

Evelopedia; 

The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion  †  
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
#45 - 2012-04-29 09:11:33 UTC
One of the things that sets EVE apart from other games is that there are long term consequences for what you do, both good and bad.

Datacores provide a good return for those that plan long term, these long term players are also likely to be good reliable customers for CCP.

Datacores have already been nerfed by reducing the standing requirements for agents, if you want to nerf datacores even more, then you should allow a refund for all datacore related skill points (even if they can also be used for invention) and provide another benefit for having high corp standings.
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#46 - 2012-04-29 09:50:11 UTC
Eliminating gun-mining in missions so forth is good.
Adding gun-researching in FW is... good?

While the method, the mechanics, of the new system is entirely unknown I would expect all datacores to appear in FW LP Stores.
If they're still available through R&D Agents in parallel then I would not expect the datacore market to change that much (though the prices might) as the FW datacores will be competing with Navy 'geddons and so forth for profit/LP.
Most likely the datacores will be pitched high initially and we'll see a huge oversupply which will drop the price of datacores sharply (good news for us inventors) but that in itself will effectively eliminate the FW LP Store from the equation.

The only way it can work in the way Soundwave seems to be hoping is if FW LP Stores become the only source of datacores...
Lictor Yeva
WoonGaffe
#47 - 2012-04-29 11:03:39 UTC
The thing is, a lot of us researchers have trained our characters specifically for the purpose of research agents and have no other use for them.

If a particular PvP tactic is nerfed you can just adapt to a new tactic. There's no adapting to losing the entire reason you created your character in the first place. It'd be like CCP saying "We're removing mining/pvp/missions/exploration, etc...".

Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2012-04-29 12:08:53 UTC
+1 for nerfing passive income !
clixor
Celluloid Gurus
#49 - 2012-04-29 12:29:51 UTC
Lictor Yeva wrote:
The thing is, a lot of us researchers have trained our characters specifically for the purpose of research agents and have no other use for them.



You know you could use the invested SP into good use right? With little additional training you have a good inventor.

But anyway, first of all, we're talking about the RACIAL DC, so changes would effect only a small portion of the agents.

Second, the DC markets are pretty stable. So in this case we're not talking about something that is broken.
Arec Bardwin
#50 - 2012-04-29 12:32:57 UTC
I just cashed out over 2 years worth of datacores on all my R&D alts. Thank god I installed jump clones in the agent locations back then, cause flying all those alts around....
Lictor Yeva
WoonGaffe
#51 - 2012-04-29 12:41:15 UTC
clixor wrote:
Lictor Yeva wrote:
The thing is, a lot of us researchers have trained our characters specifically for the purpose of research agents and have no other use for them.



You know you could use the invested SP into good use right? With little additional training you have a good inventor.

But anyway, first of all, we're talking about the RACIAL DC, so changes would effect only a small portion of the agents.

Second, the DC markets are pretty stable. So in this case we're not talking about something that is broken.


1. The invested SP's are useless, because I trained these characters for a passive income. I have no use for another active income toon. Besides, I do have an invention character, she does all the invention I need to do... so can hardly use 3 more toons for that purpose.

2. Racial datacores? No, the jist of Soundwaves talk is that they're considering the changes for all datacores and research agents.

3. The DC markets are pretty stable now. If CCP mangles them in some ill conceived nerf, that may no longer be the case. The stability of the markets also does nothing to address the concern that there are MANY players out there who have spent what amounts to years of skill training, standings grinding and ISK investment, long term, to be able to have a modest passive income which CCP now threatens to take away for no good reason.
Sunviking
Doomheim
#52 - 2012-04-29 13:54:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Sunviking
I really don't like this change.

I just trained my 2nd account up to do Research with agents, and I am now stuck in a rut with what to do for the next month while I wait for Inferno and confirmation on what is going to happen.

Research Project Management cost me ISK40million. Ok, I am rich, but it's still alot of ISK. And each of the Science skills used for Research costs ISK10million a pop. I spent hundreds of millions on these skills.

I agree that there should be no passive income to help fund PLEX, but as someone else has already stated, Why Not just make the continued accumulation on Research Points dependent on you completing those daily Research missions that are offered? i.e. if you don't do the mission after a day, your agent stops working for you until you complete it.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#53 - 2012-04-29 14:07:46 UTC
Xython wrote:
The problem is, people aren't doing datacore farming for datacores, but as a source of free money.

3x Datacore Farming Alts that are also PI Alts at the same time = enough money for a PLEX or Two a Month, as I understand it. The fact it took them this long to fix such a horrific isk faucet is kinda sad.



Being in goons you should probably know the difference between an isk faucet (i.e. something that adds isk to the economy and leads to inflation) and a material faucets such as moongoo or datacores that just lead to redistribution of isk already in the game.

Concerning the possible changes, I don't really care since I couldn't be arsed to grind research alts up - however CCP will have to come with something to compensate those with research alts for their efforts. 
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
#54 - 2012-04-29 16:28:50 UTC
This way of passive income comes at a price: Invest alot of playing time and the training time, plan ahead, maybe for years to get a ROI. Some people even created accounts for that and put in real cash.

I wonder how many RPs are researched each day in total. Maybe we can get a statement from CCP?

Odyssey: Repacking in POS hangars for modules +1,  but please for other stuff too, especially containers. Make containers openable in POS hangars.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2012-04-29 17:08:54 UTC
clixor wrote:
Lictor Yeva wrote:
The thing is, a lot of us researchers have trained our characters specifically for the purpose of research agents and have no other use for them.



You know you could use the invested SP into good use right? With little additional training you have a good inventor.

But anyway, first of all, we're talking about the RACIAL DC, so changes would effect only a small portion of the agents.

Second, the DC markets are pretty stable. So in this case we're not talking about something that is broken.


Guess you missed the part where CCP Soundwave talked about increasing the amount of research points needed to redeem Data Cores and possibly adding an ISK fee on top of that.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2012-04-29 17:26:16 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
+1 for nerfing passive income !

Ah good, if you could just sign this petition to buff Hulks...

Wait here me out....it can't even fight...T2 drones don't count since its dead before they react...thin easy to break tank...you can't get a more passive easy isk generating income when it comes to hulk bashing when that salvage and modules drop that easily replace the destroyers.

Now if you could just sign right here...
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2012-04-29 17:34:17 UTC
Remove 50% waste from datacore bpc's while you are at it. BPO owners have had their cake for too long.
Vince Snetterton
#58 - 2012-04-29 18:34:01 UTC
For those have not watched Soundwave in the Ten Ton Hammer interview, it gets even better.
The idiot does not even have a clue how this this will impact the datacore market and ultimately invention / T2 costs.
And he is quite proud of this. These are not my words, but his. Watch the interview.

In the interview, Soundwave paints a scenario, where the Caldari side of FW blows away the Gallente side.
He then goes on to describe how this will cause an immense reduction of Gallente datacores available, and that the Eve player community will have to "get involved" with FW to rectify the situation.

So now we will have all these industrialist chars who need Gallente datacores either training PvP skills for their chars and organizing massive FW fleets to gain Gallente datacores, or paying people to fight in Gallente FW.

I am sure that industrialists will be thrilled to spend months training chars for FW PvP, and I am equally sure that it will be very cheap to hire merc corps to fight FW to generate said datacores.
Zaerlorth Maelkor
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2012-04-29 19:24:29 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:

So is the real motivation for this change because Research as a business is costing CCP profits, as in training up my two alts to do R&D and buying PLEX with the profits? Well, I don't do that.



What are you talking about? When you buy a plex someone has paid CCP $15. It doesn't matter who redeems it for gametime.
Duvida
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2012-04-29 19:34:04 UTC
Zaerlorth Maelkor wrote:
Urgg Boolean wrote:

So is the real motivation for this change because Research as a business is costing CCP profits, as in training up my two alts to do R&D and buying PLEX with the profits? Well, I don't do that.



What are you talking about? When you buy a plex someone has paid CCP $15. It doesn't matter who redeems it for gametime.



Simply stated and precise. This is the point that many people miss about PLEX.