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New dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, one ship at a time

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Mathieollo
Ind Inc
#2001 - 2012-04-21 14:09:37 UTC
good to know in that case, it just kind of made me wonder why ccp hadn't said what would happen except if you were at lvl 5, glad to hear that though.
Demonfuge Malevolent
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2002 - 2012-04-21 15:02:49 UTC
I would just like to add can you please notify us of the implementation date as far in advance as possible?

That way we can remap in time and train up BC 5 before the change.

(If I hold out a month I can use my regular remap, otherwise I need to use a bonus remap, hence the date for implementation will decide what I do with my attributes and skills!)
Skarned
Inroads
#2003 - 2012-04-21 16:31:03 UTC
What's your timeline for implementing this? How many years till it's done?
ikke bensuper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2004 - 2012-04-21 21:21:28 UTC  |  Edited by: ikke bensuper
jizzah wrote:
Mathieollo wrote:
[quote=Razor Rocker]When is this actually going to be implement? I know I've trained up BC and destroyer to 5 for this patch, but I also know a lot are still training them. What happens if you are 1/2 way done BC 5 when the patch hits? do you get all racial BC skills to 4 1/2 or 4?


come about, you'll have amarr BC @ 3 and caldari BC @ 3 (so you can still fly drake and harbinger.

The reason you're hearing people mentioning level 5 trains is due to command ships. At the monent to get into say an amarr command ship, you need amarr cruiser AND BC @ level 5. By training the faction cruisers to level 3 (or being safe 4) and battlecruisers to level 5, they're opening up all command ships via a 20 day train, as opposed to having that 20 day train plus 4*20 days for the 4 faction cruisers @ 5. This is because the future command ship reqs are being reduced to racial cruiser 4 racial BC 5.

Either way, 'if you can fly it before, you can fly it now' has been said several times by the devs and therein should be the case.



Don't get people TOO excited about command ships, that 20 days train time you mention is only if they already have the other prerequisites for the other required ship classes to open up Command Ships, such as Logistics V for Fleet Command Ships and/or HAC V for Field Command Ships. As far as I know, those are still going to be required in the new trees. http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Amarrshiptree2_1920.jpg

IE, still gonna need Signature Analysis V and Long Range Targeting V before you can train Logistics, before you can train Fleet Command Ships.
Preston Vane
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2005 - 2012-04-21 21:26:54 UTC
@ ikke, you posted the tree as is atm, not the one that will be.
They specificly stated that they no longer want Command ships to need logistics or hacs.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#2006 - 2012-04-22 06:18:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Jumpfreighters are tech 2 freighters. They currently require racial Freighter 4.

Will the prerequisite for Jumpfreighters be raised to racial Freighter 5?

If you can pilot a Jumpfreighter now, you would get racial Freighter 5 (about 42 days of training), and the ship bonuses that come with it. If you also have BC 5 and Destroyers 5 (I do), that could be a lot of free SP.
jizzah
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2007 - 2012-04-22 10:53:23 UTC
ikke bensuper wrote:
Don't get people TOO excited about command ships, that 20 days train time you mention is only if they already have the other prerequisites for the other required ship classes to open up Command Ships, such as Logistics V for Fleet Command Ships and/or HAC V for Field Command Ships. As far as I know, those are still going to be required in the new trees. http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Amarrshiptree2_1920.jpg

IE, still gonna need Signature Analysis V and Long Range Targeting V before you can train Logistics, before you can train Fleet Command Ships.


It's logi 4 and HAC 4 for the field/fleet command just now. Granted, they have a lot of other prereqs-spaceship command 5, warfare link 4, leadership 5, etc.
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#2008 - 2012-04-22 20:13:08 UTC
Naglfar could use a lot of love. Maybe change 2+2 layout to 3+1 turrets + launchers. Currently a Revelation with artillery has higher alpha than Naglfar which is kind of ridiculous. Minmatar are supposed to have the highest alpha at least...
ikke bensuper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2009 - 2012-04-23 08:57:18 UTC
So, if we're 1 day short of having BC V done, will we then be 1 day short of each racial BC V after the change? Or will we simply be at BC 4 and have to do the entire 5th level all over on each race? Anyone know for sure?
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#2010 - 2012-04-23 11:12:56 UTC
Destroyer / battlecruiser skill revamp is not coming for Inferno. We will make sure to let you know in advance if and when this happens for a future release.

Please remember, the time line for ship balancing spans over several expansions, as:


  • There are too many changes to put that in a single release - not only ships need be looked into, but some modules / weapon systems need rebalancing as well (ex: active versus passive tanking, missiles...)

  • Even if we could, this would not be wise to change everything in a single release - we want to approach this through iteration steps. That means rebalancing one ship class at a time, gathering feedback / data, iterating on it while balancing the next class and so on.


The estimated process is to start with Tech 1 ships, frigates first, then move our way up. Since Tech 2 and 3 are variations of Tech 1, they will be tackled later when we are confident we have a good baseline to work with.

Hope that helps Blink
Lorginir
#2011 - 2012-04-23 12:42:02 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Destroyer / battlecruiser skill revamp is not coming for Inferno. We will make sure to let you know in advance if and when this happens for a future release.

Please remember, the time line for ship balancing spans over several expansions, as:


  • There are too many changes to put that in a single release - not only ships need be looked into, but some modules / weapon systems need rebalancing as well (ex: active versus passive tanking, missiles...)

  • Even if we could, this would not be wise to change everything in a single release - we want to approach this through iteration steps. That means rebalancing one ship class at a time, gathering feedback / data, iterating on it while balancing the next class and so on.


The estimated process is to start with Tech 1 ships, frigates first, then move our way up. Since Tech 2 and 3 are variations of Tech 1, they will be tackled later when we are confident we have a good baseline to work with.

Hope that helps Blink


Hope humanity will still exist when rebalansing will be finished.

Licensed 07.06.2010 R.I.P 10.06.2012 nevermore.
cApAc aMaRu
Burning Sword
#2012 - 2012-04-23 12:46:04 UTC
Lorginir wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Destroyer / battlecruiser skill revamp is not coming for Inferno. We will make sure to let you know in advance if and when this happens for a future release.

Please remember, the time line for ship balancing spans over several expansions, as:


  • There are too many changes to put that in a single release - not only ships need be looked into, but some modules / weapon systems need rebalancing as well (ex: active versus passive tanking, missiles...)

  • Even if we could, this would not be wise to change everything in a single release - we want to approach this through iteration steps. That means rebalancing one ship class at a time, gathering feedback / data, iterating on it while balancing the next class and so on.


The estimated process is to start with Tech 1 ships, frigates first, then move our way up. Since Tech 2 and 3 are variations of Tech 1, they will be tackled later when we are confident we have a good baseline to work with.

Hope that helps Blink


Hope humanity will still exist when rebalansing will be finished.


We'll still exist. On the other side of the wormhole from which there is no return.

Protip: re-balancing never ends.
Preston Vane
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2013 - 2012-04-23 14:23:48 UTC
At least we now have thousands of ppl with BC V who didn't bother training it before Big smile
ikke bensuper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2014 - 2012-04-23 15:09:34 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Destroyer / battlecruiser skill revamp is not coming for Inferno. We will make sure to let you know in advance if and when this happens for a future release.

Please remember, the time line for ship balancing spans over several expansions, as:


  • There are too many changes to put that in a single release - not only ships need be looked into, but some modules / weapon systems need rebalancing as well (ex: active versus passive tanking, missiles...)

  • Even if we could, this would not be wise to change everything in a single release - we want to approach this through iteration steps. That means rebalancing one ship class at a time, gathering feedback / data, iterating on it while balancing the next class and so on.


The estimated process is to start with Tech 1 ships, frigates first, then move our way up. Since Tech 2 and 3 are variations of Tech 1, they will be tackled later when we are confident we have a good baseline to work with.

Hope that helps Blink



Thanks for the post, but may I ask for a little clarification? When you say Destroyer/Battlecruiser skill revamp is not coming for Inferno, does this mean it won't be during Inferno's lifespan, or does it mean just not for Inferno's release tomorrow? And how much advance warning are we talking? The date of May 24th for these changes had been floating around, and I was contemplating having to burn 2 bonus remaps to make that date. A little clarification would be much appreciated.

Thanks Ytterbium!
Mathieollo
Ind Inc
#2015 - 2012-04-23 16:48:22 UTC
Preston Vane wrote:
At least we now have thousands of ppl with BC V who didn't bother training it before Big smile


BlinkBig smile

ikke bensuper wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Destroyer / battlecruiser skill revamp is not coming for Inferno. We will make sure to let you know in advance if and when this happens for a future release.

Please remember, the time line for ship balancing spans over several expansions, as:


  • There are too many changes to put that in a single release - not only ships need be looked into, but some modules / weapon systems need rebalancing as well (ex: active versus passive tanking, missiles...)

  • Even if we could, this would not be wise to change everything in a single release - we want to approach this through iteration steps. That means rebalancing one ship class at a time, gathering feedback / data, iterating on it while balancing the next class and so on.


The estimated process is to start with Tech 1 ships, frigates first, then move our way up. Since Tech 2 and 3 are variations of Tech 1, they will be tackled later when we are confident we have a good baseline to work with.

Hope that helps Blink



Thanks for the post, but may I ask for a little clarification? When you say Destroyer/Battlecruiser skill revamp is not coming for Inferno, does this mean it won't be during Inferno's lifespan, or does it mean just not for Inferno's release tomorrow? And how much advance warning are we talking? The date of May 24th for these changes had been floating around, and I was contemplating having to burn 2 bonus remaps to make that date. A little clarification would be much appreciated.

Thanks Ytterbium!


yeah i'd like to hear the answer on that too, i already used one of the two needed to make the deadline but it's nothing too big of an issue and it'll still be nice to have the training out of the way ahead of time.
Mashie Saldana
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#2016 - 2012-04-23 19:40:54 UTC
Well that was one remap wasted on an alt...

How to win EVE
Opa God
Northwest Industries International
#2017 - 2012-04-23 20:34:12 UTC
Mashie Saldana wrote:
Well that was one remap wasted on an alt...


I am sure we will get a free remap to go back to what we were training before. You know CCP Ytterbium said:

To remind it again, there are other options to consider, but no matter which one which choose, you won't lose anything out of the skill reimbursement plan.

// sarcasm off
Morar Santee
#2018 - 2012-04-24 07:54:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Morar Santee
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Please remember, the time line for ship balancing spans over several expansions, as:

  • There are too many changes to put that in a single release - not only ships need be looked into, but some modules / weapon systems need rebalancing as well (ex: active versus passive tanking, missiles...)

  • Even if we could, this would not be wise to change everything in a single release - we want to approach this through iteration steps. That means rebalancing one ship class at a time, gathering feedback / data, iterating on it while balancing the next class and so on.

I think it's only understandable you would want to have a longer time frame over which you conduct these changes, considering it took you about 10 years to achieve the fragile balance we are working with right now.

What I don't understand, and please bear with me in this, is how you want to "rebalanc[e] one ship class at a time". Balance it against what exactly? Against all the other ship classes which you are also going to rebalance at a later point in time?
Now I'm no pro at this, but logical deduction tells me that if you balance A against B and then change B... A is probably no longer balanced at all?

What I see happening is that you throw us back years and years in terms of actual, live game balancing. As in: The reality we have to make do with in-game, as opposed to the grand plan you have in mind, which may or may not work out, eventually.
ikke bensuper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2019 - 2012-04-24 16:27:01 UTC
Morar Santee wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Please remember, the time line for ship balancing spans over several expansions, as:

  • There are too many changes to put that in a single release - not only ships need be looked into, but some modules / weapon systems need rebalancing as well (ex: active versus passive tanking, missiles...)

  • Even if we could, this would not be wise to change everything in a single release - we want to approach this through iteration steps. That means rebalancing one ship class at a time, gathering feedback / data, iterating on it while balancing the next class and so on.

I think it's only understandable you would want to have a longer time frame over which you conduct these changes, considering it took you about 10 years to achieve the fragile balance we are working with right now.

What I don't understand, and please bear with me in this, is how you want to "rebalanc[e] one ship class at a time". Balance it against what exactly? Against all the other ship classes which you are also going to rebalance at a later point in time?
Now I'm no pro at this, but logical deduction tells me that if you balance A against B and then change B... A is probably no longer balanced at all?

What I see happening is that you throw us back years and years in terms of actual, live game balancing. As in: The reality we have to make do with in-game, as opposed to the grand plan you have in mind, which may or may not work out, eventually.


First off, I would think balancing a ship class means balancing all frigates against each other, balancing all bc's against each other, etc. So by balancing one class at a time, they're not upsetting that balance when they move on to the next ship class.

Now, there will likely be some balancing between classes as well, ie balancing cost and effectiveness vs. the next class up of ships. However, I'm sure CCP has enough forethought to make these adjustments based on what they have planned for the next class in line to be balanced.
cApAc aMaRu
Burning Sword
#2020 - 2012-04-24 16:30:30 UTC
ikke bensuper wrote:

Now, there will likely be some balancing between classes as well, ie balancing cost and effectiveness vs. the next class up of ships. However, I'm sure CCP has enough forethought to make these adjustments based on what they have planned for the next class in line to be balanced.


Is this the same CCP that Electronic Attack Ships?