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Goons "legalising" botting!!

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Apollo-Moor
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#141 - 2011-09-29 14:19:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Apollo-Moor
Problem Pattern.. Now thats good..

"We know there's a problem, but the pattern is not perfect yet.. You see that bit of territory to the South and South-West that doesn't belong to the "botters".

"Yea when they cross that line right there. We officially have a pattern until then its just a Clusterfuck.. "

LmAO..

Someone give this guy a raise..
KaarBaak
Squirrel Team
#142 - 2011-09-29 14:23:12 UTC
Apollo-Moor wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Not jumping into the heated rhetorical nature of this thread I did see some comments that I'd just like to get a statement on the record about. When making determinations regarding bans for botting the alliance, corporation, political beliefs, gender or any other anecdotal information about the offender aren't taken into account. At least not in a way that would be considered a net positive to the group the botter belongs to.

Detections determine the administrative action, not corporation or alliance membership.

That being said, if we feel there's a problem pattern developing we will take action to rectify it. Alliances and corporations should not be encouraging malicious/illegal activity and if we see evidence of this occurring action will be taken. I would heartily encourage alliances and corporations not to condone illegal activities.


Blue-On-Blue Violence

This is a sensitive – even a touchy – subject, so let me say that while he is, indeed, a keen ratter – a very keen ratter if we are honest – we have one rule in Goonswarm: we don’t **** other goons. Oh and we don’t play cop for CCP in their own game by reporting or petitioning goons, either:

But if it were the case that he had been ratting just a little too exuberantly for peoples’ liking, or if he had offended them by consistently ignoring their conversation requests for a brief window of, say, seventeen or eighteen hours, for instance, then it would be goon-****** to report him or to kill him. This will land you and your corp in trouble as all we know is that someone shot blues.

You mean something along the lines of this?


I'm no fan of the "snitches get stitches" concept, but frankly if you're a member of a large alliance and your first response to someone acting "suspiciously" [in your opinion] is to report them to CCP, you don't belong in that alliance.

Use your "chain-of'-command." Let your corp directors know....and let them handle it. If they don't, then it's a bad corp to be in and you should drop corp and report. If you remain in corp and your corp leadership and/or alliance leadership doesn't do anything about it, then drop and report.

Once you know, you're either part of the solution or part of the problem.

It makes no sense to report alliance/corpmates.

If you fancy yourself some kind of Seymour Hersh-type and try to expose the evil-doers....then collect data/evidence and report. Still makes no sense to report blues.




Dum Spiro Spero
Apollo-Moor
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#143 - 2011-09-29 14:29:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Apollo-Moor
Reporting someone for cheating in game and breaking EULA is in no means saying you are not loyal to your Alliance. Fighting along side them and defending space and whatever else declares your loyalty.

You don't need to sale your EVE-Soul just to be part of some major alliance. Lots of capsuleers fail to see that. For some leadership to say they will handle the botter in-house is bullshit because they have no power to ban the botter. Banning being the only acceptable punishment means you have to go through the reporting process.

And a fine of a 150MIL or even a PLEX is NOTHING for a botter to recover from. Requiring even more that they just be removed from game entirely. Until lessons are learned which will never be in most cases.

None of which requires Leadership knowledge or approval.

GO HARD!

And if they find out its you, short of you saying "Yea guys I reported" then you know. That possibly and unfortunately there are some higher-ups in CCP possibly working for the interest of botting.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#144 - 2011-09-29 14:35:13 UTC
if you think somebody is botting, report them

let CCP deal with it

If you think your biased nulsec leadership will deal with this in the manner it deserves more fool you

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2011-09-29 14:35:56 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Apollo-Moor wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Not jumping into the heated rhetorical nature of this thread I did see some comments that I'd just like to get a statement on the record about. When making determinations regarding bans for botting the alliance, corporation, political beliefs, gender or any other anecdotal information about the offender aren't taken into account. At least not in a way that would be considered a net positive to the group the botter belongs to.

Detections determine the administrative action, not corporation or alliance membership.

That being said, if we feel there's a problem pattern developing we will take action to rectify it. Alliances and corporations should not be encouraging malicious/illegal activity and if we see evidence of this occurring action will be taken. I would heartily encourage alliances and corporations not to condone illegal activities.


Blue-On-Blue Violence

This is a sensitive – even a touchy – subject, so let me say that while he is, indeed, a keen ratter – a very keen ratter if we are honest – we have one rule in Goonswarm: we don’t **** other goons. Oh and we don’t play cop for CCP in their own game by reporting or petitioning goons, either:

But if it were the case that he had been ratting just a little too exuberantly for peoples’ liking, or if he had offended them by consistently ignoring their conversation requests for a brief window of, say, seventeen or eighteen hours, for instance, then it would be goon-****** to report him or to kill him. This will land you and your corp in trouble as all we know is that someone shot blues.

You mean something along the lines of this?


No, I mean evidence of coordinated wrongdoing. Just like I said. Feel free to email said evidence to security@ccpgames.com


You actually quoted a post in which you were directly quoted and I see nowhere that you said "evidence of coordinated wrongdoing". You specifically said " Alliances and corporations should not be encouraging malicious/illegal activity and if we see evidence of this occurring action will be taken.". Encouraging malicious/illegal activity would include threatening to evict someone from an alliance for reporting botting of another alliance member. By doing that you are basically saying it is ok to bot in our alliance because we will not report you. That is encouragement.

So...just like I said. You may want to investigate your CSM chairman and the botting activities of all the alliances that the current CSM members are a part of. We wouldn't want CCP to look hipocritical and foolish now would we?

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#146 - 2011-09-29 14:46:48 UTC
i like the part where people think that alliance rules supercede the EULA

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#147 - 2011-09-29 14:54:16 UTC
Most alliances prohibit blue-on-blue violence, simply as an administrative matter. Else it would be very easy for a pilot with an itchy trigger finger to shoot a suspected bot first and find out later that he was just alt-tabbed and AFK-ratting, or to shoot someone they don't like and claim that they thought it was a bot, or to simply suicide-gank alliance members and steal their modules under cover of bot hunting.

Mittens' main point is that suspected botters should be reported first to the alliance, that being suspected of botting does not make a pilot a target, and that he has a zero-tolerance policy for blue kills. Such a policy is hardly uncommon. While I wouldn't hesitate to report a botter, regardless of alliance or corporation, I wouldn't start ganking them until getting the go-ahead from corporation/alliance leadership. Because it would look rather bad if leadership thought I was hunting blues.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2011-09-29 15:13:32 UTC
Alice Katsuko wrote:
Most alliances prohibit blue-on-blue violence, simply as an administrative matter. Else it would be very easy for a pilot with an itchy trigger finger to shoot a suspected bot first and find out later that he was just alt-tabbed and AFK-ratting, or to shoot someone they don't like and claim that they thought it was a bot, or to simply suicide-gank alliance members and steal their modules under cover of bot hunting.

Mittens' main point is that suspected botters should be reported first to the alliance, that being suspected of botting does not make a pilot a target, and that he has a zero-tolerance policy for blue kills. Such a policy is hardly uncommon. While I wouldn't hesitate to report a botter, regardless of alliance or corporation, I wouldn't start ganking them until getting the go-ahead from corporation/alliance leadership. Because it would look rather bad if leadership thought I was hunting blues.


Zero tolerance policy on blue kills? Goonswarm? What? Unfortunately I have to disagree. I also have to disagree with your interpretation of "The Mittani's" address to his alliance. I seriously doubt he botheres removing people from his alliance for botting.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#149 - 2011-09-29 15:17:33 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Zero tolerance policy on blue kills? Goonswarm? What?


I'm not sure if it's your blind hatred for Goonswarm or your stupidity that makes you think that any alliance, let alone one of the largest in the game, would let its members run around shooting each other willy-nilly.

(Counterpoint: TEST Alliance)
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#150 - 2011-09-29 15:22:39 UTC
Taken from the EVE EULA;
EULA wrote:
You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play.

means no automated botting allowed
EULA wrote:
You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.

yup, no botting allowed
EULA wrote:
B. Selling Items and Objects
You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions (such as ebay), newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game.

And you are definitely not allowed to sell any in game item or indeed your whole account. Also, i would seem that by not reporting players you KNOW to be actively breaking these rules you are 'encouraging' them and by extension, breaking the EULA yourself.
EULA wrote:
You have no interest in the value of your time spent playing the Game, for example, by the building up of the experience level of your character and the items your character accumulates during your time playing the Game. Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP, including any and all copyrights and intellectual property rights in or to any and all of the same, all of which are hereby expressly reserved.

This little bit here also states that anything gained in-game isnt even yours to sell, it ALL belongs to CCP.
In closing;
EULA wrote:
To play EVE, you must: ~snip~ (iv) comply with the EULA.

Please try and argue that reporting botters to your alliance leaders and not to CCP is the correct thing to do

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Maxpie
MUSE LLP
#151 - 2011-09-29 15:43:00 UTC
Funny how you can tell who the botters are just by reading their responses in this thread.

No good deed goes unpunished
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#152 - 2011-09-29 15:43:15 UTC
Quote:
That being said, if we feel there's a problem pattern developing we will take action to rectify it. Alliances and corporations should not be encouraging malicious/illegal activity and if we see evidence of this occurring action will be taken. I would heartily encourage alliances and corporations not to condone illegal activities.


You mean like the evidence in the OP?

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Dunbar Hulan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#153 - 2011-09-29 15:51:41 UTC
Storm in a tea cup.

 ** Manchester United - Paul Scholes= Genius**
SmashTech
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#154 - 2011-09-29 15:55:45 UTC
I could've guessed from the title that this was going to be a BoB-fest but jeeze oh man this exceeded all my expectations. I mean seriously: Goons "legalising" botting!! You sorry pubbie.
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#155 - 2011-09-29 16:17:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
there is a pretty large difference between an alliance that is not fully cooperative with CCP when it comes to fighting EULA violations and an alliance that exists to facilitate EULA violations.

Sreegs seems to address the latter rather than the former.

some people in this thread try very hard to make both things look as if they are the same.

Apollo-Moor wrote:
Reporting someone for cheating in game and breaking EULA is in no means saying you are not loyal to your Alliance. Fighting along side them and defending space and whatever else declares your loyalty.

when your alliance says "we don't want snitches amidst our own" how loyal can you be to your alliance while being a snitch?
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#156 - 2011-09-29 16:23:32 UTC
How ironic.
The goons with their 1 year propaganda against botters while at the same time doing it themselves and now they give goons a green light to do botting. Big smile
Well this would be the final coffin to eve. Having huge alliance income is no longer enough.
I guess this is how a game dies....If this persist, its the begining of the end, specially when the Mitani been the president of CSM sponsors botting.
This is how great games dies.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2011-09-29 16:27:47 UTC
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Zero tolerance policy on blue kills? Goonswarm? What?


I'm not sure if it's your blind hatred for Goonswarm or your stupidity that makes you think that any alliance, let alone one of the largest in the game, would let its members run around shooting each other willy-nilly.

(Counterpoint: TEST Alliance)


I am not sure if it's your blind faith in Goonswarm or your stupidity that makes you think recruiting members and then immediately destroying thier ship and podding them isn't considered killing blues. (FYI Goonswarm is well known for doing this.)

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#158 - 2011-09-29 16:32:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
I am not sure if it's your blind faith in Goonswarm or your stupidity that makes you think recruiting members and then immediately destroying thier ship and podding them isn't considered killing blues. (FYI Goonswarm is well known for doing this.)

I heard they also shoot blue dictors that managed to bubble their own fleet.... Shocked

what a bunch of unruly anarchists! not even the beautiful color "blue" is sacred these days...
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#159 - 2011-09-29 16:41:00 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
I am not sure if it's your blind faith in Goonswarm or your stupidity that makes you think recruiting members and then immediately destroying thier ship and podding them isn't considered killing blues. (FYI Goonswarm is well known for doing this.)


As a Goonswarm Recruiter™ I can assure you that no individual who has been accepted into a Goonswarm corporation has been immediately set upon and been robbed and killed. If we really don't like somebody we don't allow them in because that would mean they'd have access to all of Goonswarm's vast OOG resources and it would provide them an opportunity to be a nuisance before a director would revoke their privileges and undo their actions.

Also your true motivation for calling Goons an evil botting empire is showing through there just a liiiiittle bit.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2011-09-29 16:44:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Vertisce Soritenshi
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
I am not sure if it's your blind faith in Goonswarm or your stupidity that makes you think recruiting members and then immediately destroying thier ship and podding them isn't considered killing blues. (FYI Goonswarm is well known for doing this.)


As a Goonswarm Recruiter™ I can assure you that no individual who has been accepted into a Goonswarm corporation has been immediately set upon and been robbed and killed. If we really don't like somebody we don't allow them in because that would mean they'd have access to all of Goonswarm's vast OOG resources and it would provide them an opportunity to be a nuisance before a director would revoke their privileges and undo their actions.

Also your true motivation for calling Goons an evil botting empire is showing through there just a liiiiittle bit.


The definition of "denial" right there.

When did I call Goonswarm an "evil botting empire". I called out for an investigation not only against Goonswarm but all alliances in which any CSM member resides. I believe that if you are going to be in the CSM then not only you but your alliance as a whole should be held to a higher standard because you now (in a way) represent CCP. This is not to say that all players shouldn't be held to the same standard but it should be enforced more diligently on those who represent CCP.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821