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so the hulk WTF CCP?!!?!?

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Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#781 - 2012-04-13 13:56:02 UTC
@Tipia

And how bad for the game is that a ship that can't dps anything else than a shuttle with it's drones gets a decent tank other than make you need more ships to kill it and by so, destroying more ships is good for the game.
It will only make me pick wisely my targets or go kill defenceless mining barges in low null sec where I could do this without Concord ganking me.

Bot argument is dead, CCP is taking care of it and for what we can see is doing rather good.

Gank argument is pointless, you don't gank an Orca with a single Battleship in high sec, why should you be able to gank an hulk with a regular fit with a single Brutix or even a single Tornado? -what argument can be valid enough to make it proportional.

-By the way, why the hell pvp is that easy and no risk in high sec? Shocked
-How good it is for the game, for low sec and null sec development, that high sec is that easy for pvp and avoid the real pvp aspect of the game that is low sec, null sec?
-How good is for mining and industry in general that mining barges and exhumers are that awful ships to fly for such tedious activity badly designed on top.

I don't see any good reason to keep this, or think for whatever reason it's good for the game because it isn't at the end.

It's just pick the "pvp" argument turn it "we free high sec from bots" when it's clearly not the case, it's pure grieffing because high sec rules are so badly designed I can turn them on my favor whenever I want and be right such as you can turn them in whatever sense you want and be right, so at the end we're doing an exercise of writing -witch you obviously win hehe-

I'm not tounting your intelligence by any means nor trying to make you agree with me in all terms, but you have to agree at some point that all those high sec arguments are fake invalid when it comes to pvp because high sec is the best place/way to avoid it.
The easy gank target that are mining barges just feed this argument of high sec being far too safe for pvp without real drawback that should be proportional risk vs reward.

Once again it's only my opinion.
Whitehound
#782 - 2012-04-13 14:00:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Then there's zero argument for giving a hulk 80k ehp like you're defending.

And neither against it.

What is it you are defending by the way? To whom or what are mining ships a threat?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#783 - 2012-04-13 14:12:09 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Tippia wrote:
No, because then you have an industrial resource ship that outtanks and outflies pretty much everything else of a similar size ...

Wrong. A tank alone does not decide over victory or defeat.

Then there's zero argument for giving a hulk 80k ehp like you're defending.


Hey guys stop that 80K ehp argument, I've just thrown a number like that so that would mark something to you guys understand that an Exhumer shouldn't be that easy to kill and need some more effort like you need to gank an orca or a freighter.

Thing is that whatever EHP you give it it's always far too easy to gank an hulk because I only risk a 80M (1 argument valid or not it is one) Tornado that has as much ehp (another argument valid or not) as the hulk full fit but the Tornado is full gank mods.

Thing is at the end, that what this brings up is not really the EHP or price or align argument the real problem because those are the same mining barges used in null sec.
The real problem is how easy is to avoid pvp or consequences and how biased risk/vs reward pvp is in high sec.
Lol


Blink
Ildryn
IDLE INTENTIONS
#784 - 2012-04-13 14:23:34 UTC
Hulks are made for 0.0. If the player is paying attention and gets to a pos when a neutral enters local then he will be fine.
In high sec use a covetor or a rokh.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#785 - 2012-04-13 14:23:56 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Hey guys stop that 80K ehp argument, I've just thrown a number like that so that would mark something to you guys understand that an Exhumer shouldn't be that easy to kill and need some more effort like you need to gank an orca or a freighter.
…and as always, the question is: why?

Quote:
The real problem is how easy is to avoid pvp or consequences and how biased risk/vs reward pvp is in high sec.
Inferno is coming. It should make highsec a bit more dangerous.
Whitehound
#786 - 2012-04-13 14:25:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Tanya Powers wrote:
Hey guys stop that 80K ehp argument,

It is a number as good as any. The decision on what to change exactly, if it needs a change, falls to CCP.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Whitehound
#787 - 2012-04-13 14:31:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Ildryn wrote:
Hulks are made for 0.0. If the player is paying attention and gets to a pos when a neutral enters local then he will be fine.
In high sec use a covetor or a rokh.

It is not a good argument. The Hulk pilot will want to get to the POS with or without his Hulk and to switch into a combat ship.

Why should a Hulk then not be able to tank enough until someone comes to the belt for support?

Would a stronger tank on mining ships lead to bigger fleet fights in 0.0 when one had to bring more DPS to kill them?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#788 - 2012-04-13 14:59:56 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Tippia wrote:
No, because then you have an industrial resource ship that outtanks and outflies pretty much everything else of a similar size ...

Wrong. A tank alone does not decide over victory or defeat.

Then there's zero argument for giving a hulk 80k ehp like you're defending.


Hey guys stop that 80K ehp argument, I've just thrown a number like that so that would mark something to you guys understand that an Exhumer shouldn't be that easy to kill and need some more effort like you need to gank an orca or a freighter.

Few if any hulk gank victims bother fitting a tank instead of maximum cargo + yield. If they're easy to kill, it's because the victim fit them that way, not because of any flaw in the balance of the ship.

And clearly despite all the complaints, the Hulk is fine according to players' tastes seeing as it's the most popular PvE ship in the game. Despite not even fitting tanking modules or rigs. So no fix is needed.
Ildryn
IDLE INTENTIONS
#789 - 2012-04-13 15:01:36 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Ildryn wrote:
Hulks are made for 0.0. If the player is paying attention and gets to a pos when a neutral enters local then he will be fine.
In high sec use a covetor or a rokh.

It is not a good argument. The Hulk pilot will want to get to the POS with or without his Hulk and to switch into a combat ship.

Why should a Hulk then not be able to tank enough until someone comes to the belt for support?

Would a stronger tank on mining ships lead to bigger fleet fights in 0.0 when one had to bring more DPS to kill them?


Fleet fights are pretty big in 0.0.....
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#790 - 2012-04-13 15:03:05 UTC
Ildryn wrote:
Hulks are made for 0.0. If the player is paying attention and gets to a pos when a neutral enters local then he will be fine.
In high sec use a covetor or a rokh.



You are only proving that high sec pvp is far too easy and without real negative consequence.

And using a Retriever or Covetor just makes it even more laughable since you don't need any more a Brutix for the job but a single neutrons catalyst or arty thasher, hell a pair of arty rifters can do it Roll

What is good for the game is that more ships die trying or die doing it because you can't do it with a single one, rather than more players leaving mining to bots and those using them.
I hope Sreggs will really put a marker on those and related accounts so I/you can have some laughs ^^ and then see who will ask for more ehp on hulks or say that hulks are far too easily ganked, this day I will probably get -10 with all my accounts faster than I can spell it knowing who's asking my 48 on it's ass. Lol
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#791 - 2012-04-13 15:12:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Tippia wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Hey guys stop that 80K ehp argument, I've just thrown a number like that so that would mark something to you guys understand that an Exhumer shouldn't be that easy to kill and need some more effort like you need to gank an orca or a freighter.
…and as always, the question is: why?


Exactly, I could have said 40K EHP without sacrifice cargo or mining mods. My bad Oops

Quote:
The real problem is how easy is to avoid pvp or consequences and how biased risk/vs reward pvp is in high sec.
Tippia wrote:
Inferno is coming. It should make highsec a bit more dangerous.


Well, if Concord is not a joke any more (I don't believe a word on this), if pvp has real consequences in high sec (I don't believe it neither) and if SS farming becomes actually really tedious leading to more low/null sec pvp (now this one I really don't believe CCP will ever do it), then inferno will probably surprise me a little bit more than hybrids (unfinished) rebalance.

Lol
Whitehound
#792 - 2012-04-13 15:20:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Ildryn wrote:
Fleet fights are pretty big in 0.0.....

That is what I am thinking, too.

If one had to bring actually some DPS to bother a mining fleet then it could lead to pretty nasty fights and more than just POS bashing.

By the way, a Hulk should not be able to tank more than a T2 transporter or it becomes a competitor to their role.

A T2 Occator, with one cargo expander to match a Hulk's cargo space, can have ~70k eHP.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#793 - 2012-04-13 15:23:40 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Well I don't see such a big population increase to justify the rise of BPC requests. Yes I also have Tempest BPO, it was not so hot.


Nados get used for way more than gankingBlink
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#794 - 2012-04-13 15:26:18 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
By the way, a Hulk should not be able to tank more than a T2 transporter or it becomes a competitor to their role.


That's not going to happen.

- Hulk has worse align time than triple plated Abaddon
- No covert ops cloak
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#795 - 2012-04-13 15:30:00 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


That's not going to happen.

- Hulk has worse align time than triple plated Abaddon
- No covert ops cloak


Thats a blocade runner not a deep space transport.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#796 - 2012-04-13 15:31:17 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:


A simple T2 fit it's at worst 2 cycles for a gank 720 T2 hotwizer Hurricane. 1 Volley for a simple Tornado. 2 Volley for a single T1 fitted Neutron Talos.



Can I see this tornado fit that can alpha a 33k tank with 80% resists?
Ildryn
IDLE INTENTIONS
#797 - 2012-04-13 15:32:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Ildryn
Whitehound wrote:
Ildryn wrote:
Fleet fights are pretty big in 0.0.....

That is what I am thinking, too.

If one had to bring actually some DPS to bother a mining fleet then it could lead to pretty nasty fights and more than just POS bashing.

By the way, a Hulk should not be able to tank more than a T2 transporter or it becomes a competitor to their role.


^^ Baltec People are saying that a tornado gets two shots in high sec. thats two alphas.....heh


The ehp on a hulk is fine. Small ships should be able to take it out in gangs. Providing it is properly fit....with tank.
Hulks are not worth what they are being sold for....they are just sold that high because people can get away with it.
I used a 14million isk frig to take out a 100million isk t2 fit raven before.....does that mean that the raven needs a buff?
No it means people need to play smarter and tank their **** or use something that does tank. It really is simple as that.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#798 - 2012-04-13 15:38:30 UTC
Ildryn wrote:


^^ Baltec People are saying that a tornado gets two shots in high sec. thats two alphas.....heh




Not that guyWhat?

In any event arty nado can only do two vollies in 0.5 and 0.6 and even that isnt enough to kill a supertank hulkBlink
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#799 - 2012-04-13 15:42:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Thats a blocade runner not a deep space transport.


As far as I know DSTs have faster align time than triple plated Abaddon. I also know that it is possible to have quite tough tank on those things too. Way over 20k what a typical tanked Hulk has.

- Abaddon: over 14 seconds
- Hulk: over 16 seconds
- Abaddon has 200k+ EHP
- Hulk has only 20k+ EHP
Mark Androcius
#800 - 2012-04-13 15:44:57 UTC
Maybe i'm ********, but you could just align your ship to station, then ctrl-space and when the baddy comes, almost instant warp.

https://androcius.wordpress.com