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so the hulk WTF CCP?!!?!?

First post
Author
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#181 - 2012-04-11 15:49:10 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
Sasha Azala wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Nura Taron wrote:

Using a tank that costs thousands of times more than the tank others ships of its size need.


In high sec, it needs no tank mods at all. In 0.0 it can tank the belts with a token effort.




That's rubbish, if I had not fitted the Hulk to tank in hi-sec I would have lost both Hulks that were suicided, both survived but that was before there were any t3 BC. I doubt either would have survived if a t3 BC had attacked them.


The Hulk is a crap vessel to tank as it is, only way to get a reasonable (pre t3 BCs) tank is to make it less efficient for the job it's supposed to do.

In short they need looking at and make them at least stand more chance of survival whislt they're doing the job they're supposed to do.


I also hate how fitting tank makes my pvp ship do less dps and stuff. Buff megathron so I can skip armor plates and fit more gank.

...

seriously....


Hulk has a base of 8000EHP. Also if you'll read the OP isn't complaining about loosing mining yield to tank. He is complaining about the fittings of the hulk making it literally impossible to fit a descent buffer tank.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
No Handlebars.
#182 - 2012-04-11 15:50:19 UTC
bornaa wrote:
Buzzmong wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
I've yet to see a sensible (ie: game balance-based) argument against enabling Hulks to fit Large Shield Extenders.

I honestly don't care at all for the "but they're supposed to be non combat ships" arguments. Game balance is more important than fluff every time. Come to that, Amarr are supposed to be far more advanced than the other races, but CCP discarded the idea of making Amarr ships more powerful.

By far the greatest danager to Hulks comes from player ships, not rats. And the ability of player ships to attack Hulks has expanded far faster than the ability of Hulks to withstand them.

By all means jig the Hulk's fittings so that fitting a Meta 4 LSE means that you need a fitting mod and can't put in any MLUs - much like putting an MSE is now. But an LSE should indisputably be a viable module on a Hulk fit that's focused on tank.

It honestly won't make all that much difference: greedy idiots will still mine with 0 tank mods and 2x T2 cargo rigs. But the alert, capable player who wants to actually protect his ship should have a better option than a Frigate shield module.



I'm fine with Hulks getting buffed to fit LSEs.

Providing they lose the Exhumer 3% Mining Buff per level.

I don't see why the gap between them and Covetors should be widened any more considering Hulks are the only non specialised T2 industrial ship.


Find me what other BC size ship T2 version costs that much over T1 version.
You see, Hulk costs 10 times more then Covetor.


Go compare Jita prices on a Prophecy and a Damnation, just sayin...

Severian Carnifex
#183 - 2012-04-11 15:51:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Severian Carnifex
Tippia wrote:

Damnation
Armored Warfare Link - Damage Control II
Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense II
Armored Warfare Link - Rapid Repair II
Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers II
Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Maneuvers II
Skirmish Warfare Link - Rapid Deployment II
Information Warfare Link - Sensor Integrity II
4× Command Processor I
6× Co-Processor II
2× Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

…oh dear. At just under 50k EHP, It can also be ganked by a small gang of destroyers. It's obvious that the Damnation needs to have its tanking abilities drastically buffed because it's such a weak ship. Roll



You see, it is fitted to completely use its bonuses and completely is spelialized for its purpose and it have 50k EHP.
Hulk is aluminium foil when its specialized in mining.
And completely tanked it cant completely use his bonuses (it looses them) and have slightly above half of Damnations tank.
Give Hulk that tank and we are happy... Big smile

And,
- Damnation is 2/3 of Hulks price.
- Damnation does not costs 10 times more then Prophecy, like Hulk is then Covetor, its 4 times.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#184 - 2012-04-11 15:51:49 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I quote you because you are the only one who can bump a thread forever.
So you admit that what you said was completely nonsensical and irrelevant and had nothing to do with what was being discussed.

Goodie. Yet another failure at explaining why the Hulk needs to be adjusted.


I admit I am using you to bump a thread where people can only see how it was good to buff the bejeezus of destroyers, implement T3 BCs, buff hybrids (all things needed or useful for PvP) while they can't see how the existing other ships get potently negatively affected.

Slowly, very slowly, the appropriate amount of social engineering plus the fact it's just true will make the exhumers reinforced up to standards.
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#185 - 2012-04-11 15:51:56 UTC
bornaa wrote:
Find me what other BC size ship T2 version costs that much over T1 version.
You see, Hulk costs 10 times more then Covetor.


Er, most of them actually if we're going on mineral cost.

Don't forget prices of Hulks are inflated due to demand for the ultimate mining vessel and the market is current fubar anyway.
Kinroi Alari
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#186 - 2012-04-11 15:52:53 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
26,700 EHP Iteron Mark V with 15,500 m3 cargo hold lol.

Passive Regen: 114
Resists: 75.9, 77.2, 72.8, 77.4




~grin~
I've done this.
bornaa
GRiD.
#187 - 2012-04-11 15:55:37 UTC  |  Edited by: bornaa
Buzzmong wrote:
bornaa wrote:
Find me what other BC size ship T2 version costs that much over T1 version.
You see, Hulk costs 10 times more then Covetor.


Er, most of them actually if we're going on mineral cost.

Don't forget prices of Hulks are inflated due to demand for the ultimate mining vessel and the market is current fubar anyway.



so... when did Hulk Cost 120mill (thats 4 times over the price of covetor (today))??? - it was when tritanium was one third of todays price.
[Yes, I'm an Amateur](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRa-69uBmIw&feature=relmfu)
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
No Handlebars.
#188 - 2012-04-11 15:56:34 UTC
Severian Carnifex wrote:
[quote=Tippia]

And,
- Damnation is 2/3 of Hulks price.
- Damnation does not costs 10 times more then Prophecy, like Hulk is then Covetor, its 4 times.


Em, lol

Jita Prices

Lowest Damna -
299,999,999.95

Lowest Prophecy -
32,899,999.97

So not quite no, but pretty much
bornaa
GRiD.
#189 - 2012-04-11 15:58:49 UTC  |  Edited by: bornaa
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Severian Carnifex wrote:
[quote=Tippia]

And,
- Damnation is 2/3 of Hulks price.
- Damnation does not costs 10 times more then Prophecy, like Hulk is then Covetor, its 4 times.


Em, lol

Jita Prices

Lowest Damna -
299,999,999.95

Lowest Prophecy -
32,899,999.97

So not quite no, but pretty much



I think that guy used my data.

I used the cheapest prices in Hi-sec for both.

Don't tell me that you are the one who is only buying from Jita even there half of things cost much more then its worth. Roll
[Yes, I'm an Amateur](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRa-69uBmIw&feature=relmfu)
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#190 - 2012-04-11 16:02:20 UTC
You know what for the slow amongst the PvP community here are two Hulk fits showing exactly what the problem is:

Quote:

[Hulk, Can't Tank]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Reactor Control Unit II

[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Requires: 536 PG
Has: 60.88
Needs and additional: 475.12 PG

Quote:

[Hulk, Can't Tank]
Reactor Control Unit II
Reactor Control Unit II

Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Requires: 148.5 PG
Has: 70.01PG
Needs and additional: 78.49 PG

Oh and also

Quote:
[Hulk, Can't Tank]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]

Medium Shield Extender II
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I


Requires: 59.25 PG
Has: 43.75 PG
Needs and additional:15.75 PG

This ship cannot even fit a MSE without TWO ACR's and an RCU!

Yeah this ships could use some more PG.
Prince Kobol
#191 - 2012-04-11 16:03:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
bornaa wrote:


Find me what other BC size ship T2 version costs that much over T1 version.
You see, Hulk costs 10 times more then Covetor.



Since you asked, I will even do cruisers for you as well Big smile

Lets do amarr cruisers using current Jita Prices.. can't be bothered doing the other races

T1 - Arbitrator 5.8mil - T2 Pilgrim 145m/ T2 Curse 153m

T1 - Augoror 4.5m - T2 Guardian 141m

T1 - Maller 12.4m- T2 Sacrilege 172m / Devoter 220m

T1 - Omen 6.9m - T2 Zealot 149m

Battle Cruisers - All Races

Amarr T1 Prophecy 31m - T2 Absolution 204m / Damnation 299m

Caldari T1 Ferox 32m - T2 Nighthawk 254m / Vulture 217m

Gallente T1 Brutix 38m - T2 Astrarte 189m / Eos 195m

Minmatar T1 Cyclone 28m - Claymore T2 259m / Sleipnir 245m


If you are going to complain about the cost between T1 and T2 ships then you should really be complaining about frigs as their T2 counterparts can cost up to 20x more.
bornaa
GRiD.
#192 - 2012-04-11 16:05:33 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
bornaa wrote:


Find me what other BC size ship T2 version costs that much over T1 version.
You see, Hulk costs 10 times more then Covetor.



Since you asked, I will even do cruisers for you as well Big smile

Lets do amarr cruisers using current Jita Prices.. can't be bothered doing the other races

T1 - Arbitrator 5.8mil - T2 Pilgrim 145m/ T2 Curse 153m

T1 - Augoror 4.5m - T2 Guardian 141m

T1 - Maller 12.4m- T2 Sacrilege 172m / Devoter 220m

T1 - Omen 6.9m - T2 Zealot 149m

Battle Cruisers - All Races

Amarr T1 Prophecy 31m - T2 Absolution 204m / Damnation 299m

Caldari T1 Ferox 32m - T2 Nighthawk 254m / Vulture 217m

Gallente T1 Brutix 38m - T2 Astrarte 189m / Eos 195m

Minmatar T1 Cyclone 28m - Claymore T2 259m / Sleipnir 245m

If you knew what you were talking about you would know that the material costs for T2 ships in most cases are approx 10 times greater then their T1 counterpart

If you are going to complain about the cost between T1 and T2 ships then you should really be complaining about frigs as their T2 counterparts can cost up to 20x more.






Ill repeat myself

"I used the cheapest prices in Hi-sec for both.

Don't tell me that you are the one who is only buying from Jita even there half of things cost much more then its worth. Roll"
[Yes, I'm an Amateur](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRa-69uBmIw&feature=relmfu)
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#193 - 2012-04-11 16:05:51 UTC
Buzzmong wrote:
bornaa wrote:
Find me what other BC size ship T2 version costs that much over T1 version.
You see, Hulk costs 10 times more then Covetor.


Er, most of them actually if we're going on mineral cost.

Don't forget prices of Hulks are inflated due to demand for the ultimate mining vessel and the market is current fubar anyway.


and hulkageddon

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes

Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#194 - 2012-04-11 16:06:05 UTC
bornaa wrote:
Buzzmong wrote:
bornaa wrote:
Find me what other BC size ship T2 version costs that much over T1 version.
You see, Hulk costs 10 times more then Covetor.


Er, most of them actually if we're going on mineral cost.

Don't forget prices of Hulks are inflated due to demand for the ultimate mining vessel and the market is current fubar anyway.



so... when did Hulk Cost 120mill (thats 4 times over the price of covetor (today))??? - it was when tritanium was one third of todays price.


Looking at the year long price changes in Verge Vendor (where this toon is), Covetors cost 18 mill 12 months ago, Hulks 185m.

Which is the same jump up for pretty much all the T1 -> T2 ships, such as Vexor->Ishtar, Proph->Damnation (or Asbo) etc, the Cov->Hulk has an easier time of it.

Thorax to Deimos has been a x20 jump at times.

Or shall we look at Omen to Zealot, which is around a x30 jump.
What about frigates to AF's? Looking at x100 figures here.

Battleships? Apoc to Pally is also around a x10 jump.

The market figures are showing the jump from Cov to Hulk is on par with the rest of the game.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#195 - 2012-04-11 16:07:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Avila Cracko wrote:
No, wast majority of wuss gankers that only have balls to PVP against defend-less target are "useless sycophantic half wits without the brains to realise" that they got in last 6 months many boosts (dessy boost, hybrid boost and tier 3 BC) and miners none and that they are now even bigger wussies then before.

Balance was broken before too, but now we can't talk about balance at all.
Why is the balance now any worse than it was before? It used to be that years of security buffs made it silly safe in highsec; now the gankers have been given some tools to counter-balance those ridiculous safety levels. If anything, it is balanced now, when it was hilariously off-balance before.

bornaa wrote:
Find me what other BC size ship T2 version costs that much over T1 version.
You see, Hulk costs 10 times more then Covetor.
Again: so what? Decreasing improvement for exponential cost. It's how all of EVE works. By the way, 10× more is a very very small markup in that segment…

· Bestower: 1–2½M — Impel: 190-220M
· Sigil: 1–3M — Prorator: 100M
· Badger: 0.7M — Crane: 100M
· Badger II: 1.5M — Bustard: 130M
· Iteron: 0.8M — Viator: 100M
· Iteron III: 1M — Occator: 135M
· Mammoth: 2M — Mastodon: 200M
· Wreathe: 1M — Prowler: 100M

…so that's maybe 100× on average.

· Prophecy: 32M — Absolution: 210M / Damnation: 300M
· Ferox: 35M — Nighthawk: 250M / Vulture: 215M
· Brutix: 40M — Astarte: 190M / Eos: 200M
· Cyclone: 29M — Claymore: 280M / Sleipnir: 245M

…so quite close to that 10× markup. So even within your very limited selection, your argument doesn't particularly hold water (and if we look outside the BC-sized segment, we quickly notice how very small a 10× cost for a T2 upgrade is).

Severian Carnifex wrote:
You see, it is fitted to completely use its bonuses and completely is spelialized for its purpose and it have 50k EHP.
Hulk is aluminium foil when its specialized in mining.
I suppose you missed the point that by the miners' logic, the Damnation needs to have its tanking buffed. The Damnation. If you cannot figure out why this is gut-bustingly laughably insane, you need to have a look at the ship in question…

Oh, and as mentioned above:

Damnation 300M vs. Prophecy 32M — close enough to 10× to count.
Hulk: 310M vs. Covetor 33M — almost exactly the same multiplier… and it's not 50% more than the Damnation / Prophecy either.

…but of course, cost is not a balancing factor, so it wouldn't matter if you were actually even remotely close to being correct. These are the current Jita prices, by the way. You should probably use actual data if you're going to try that kind of argument (not that it really matters since it's an irrelevant argument anyway, what with cost not being a balancing factor and all that…).
bornaa
GRiD.
#196 - 2012-04-11 16:09:57 UTC
Buzzmong wrote:
bornaa wrote:
Buzzmong wrote:
bornaa wrote:
Find me what other BC size ship T2 version costs that much over T1 version.
You see, Hulk costs 10 times more then Covetor.


Er, most of them actually if we're going on mineral cost.

Don't forget prices of Hulks are inflated due to demand for the ultimate mining vessel and the market is current fubar anyway.



so... when did Hulk Cost 120mill (thats 4 times over the price of covetor (today))??? - it was when tritanium was one third of todays price.


Looking at the year long price changes in Verge Vendor (where this toon is), Covetors cost 18 mill 12 months ago, Hulks 185m.

Which is the same jump up for pretty much all the T1 -> T2 ships, such as Vexor->Ishtar, Proph->Damnation (or Asbo) etc, the Cov->Hulk has an easier time of it.

Thorax to Deimos has been a x20 jump at times.

Or shall we look at Omen to Zealot, which is around a x30 jump.
What about frigates to AF's? Looking at x100 figures here.

Battleships? Apoc to Pally is also around a x10 jump.

The market figures are showing the jump from Cov to Hulk is on par with the rest of the game.


Thats why i said "BC size".

And Ill repeat myself again:

"I used the cheapest prices in Hi-sec for both.

Don't tell me that you are the one who is only buying from Jita even there half of things cost much more then its worth. Roll "

I used data from web market site that compare prices between all EVE markets.
[Yes, I'm an Amateur](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRa-69uBmIw&feature=relmfu)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#197 - 2012-04-11 16:12:55 UTC
Why are you lot comparing the hulk to t2 battlecruisers? The hulk is more of a cruiser sized ship...
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#198 - 2012-04-11 16:15:07 UTC
bornaa wrote:
Don't tell me that you are the one who is only buying from Jita even there half of things cost much more then its worth. Roll
Jita is the pretty much the standard point of comparison since it's where the market moves the fastest towards the current equilibrium, and since it's objectively true for, and available to, everyone.

If you want to use some other non-standard data for comparison, provide sources and links.
bornaa
GRiD.
#199 - 2012-04-11 16:15:34 UTC
Look people, I am not miner, I dont have not even one SP in industry, I am just saying what I think and I say it because my best RL friend who was miner quit EVE and i want to see him back.

I only want, if they boosted offence of combat ships by a third, boost defense on mining ships by third.
[Yes, I'm an Amateur](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRa-69uBmIw&feature=relmfu)
Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2012-04-11 16:16:10 UTC
What is the max amount of DPS a ganker can do in 0.5 before concord show up?