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so the hulk WTF CCP?!!?!?

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Sasha Azala
Doomheim
#141 - 2012-04-11 13:51:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Sasha Azala
baltec1 wrote:
Nura Taron wrote:

Using a tank that costs thousands of times more than the tank others ships of its size need.


In high sec, it needs no tank mods at all. In 0.0 it can tank the belts with a token effort.




That's rubbish, if I had not fitted the Hulk to tank in hi-sec I would have lost both Hulks that were suicided, both survived but that was before there were any t3 BC. I doubt either would have survived if a t3 BC had attacked them.


The Hulk is a crap vessel to tank as it is, only way to get a reasonable (pre t3 BCs) tank is to make it less efficient for the job it's supposed to do.

In short they need looking at and make them at least stand more chance of survival whislt they're doing the job they're supposed to do.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#142 - 2012-04-11 13:57:33 UTC
Sasha Azala wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Nura Taron wrote:

Using a tank that costs thousands of times more than the tank others ships of its size need.


In high sec, it needs no tank mods at all. In 0.0 it can tank the belts with a token effort.




That's rubbish, if I had not fitted the Hulk to tank in hi-sec I would have lost both Hulks that were suicided, both survived but that was before there were any t3 BC. I doubt either would have survived if a t3 BC had attacked them.


The Hulk is a crap vessel to tank as it is, only way to get a reasonable (pre t3 BCs) tank is to make it less efficient for the job it's supposed to do.

In short they need looking at and make them at least stand more chance of survival whislt they're doing the job they're supposed to do.


That was about belt rats. If you want a pvp tank go look at the one I posted.
Arkon Olacar
black.listed
#143 - 2012-04-11 13:59:56 UTC
Sasha Azala wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Nura Taron wrote:

Using a tank that costs thousands of times more than the tank others ships of its size need.


In high sec, it needs no tank mods at all. In 0.0 it can tank the belts with a token effort.




That's rubbish, if I had not fitted the Hulk to tank in hi-sec I would have lost both Hulks that were suicided, both survived but that was before there were any t3 BC. I doubt either would have survived if a t3 BC had attacked them.


The Hulk is a crap vessel to tank as it is, only way to get a reasonable (pre t3 BCs) tank is to make it less efficient for the job it's supposed to do.

In short they need looking at and make them at least stand more chance of survival whislt they're doing the job they're supposed to do.

Cruisers - designed for combat, so have decent armour and shields
Battleships - designed for combat, so have decent armour and shields
Industrials - designed for haulage, so have decent cargo capacity
Mining barges - designed for mining, so have access to unique mining lasers

I see no problem here. Each ship is designed for its purpose. Giving a hulk a good tank would be like giving an industrial eight turret slots; it is inappropriate for the ship class, and has nothing in common with the intended purpose of the ship.
Sasha Azala
Doomheim
#144 - 2012-04-11 14:01:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Sasha Azala wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Nura Taron wrote:

Using a tank that costs thousands of times more than the tank others ships of its size need.


In high sec, it needs no tank mods at all. In 0.0 it can tank the belts with a token effort.




That's rubbish, if I had not fitted the Hulk to tank in hi-sec I would have lost both Hulks that were suicided, both survived but that was before there were any t3 BC. I doubt either would have survived if a t3 BC had attacked them.


The Hulk is a crap vessel to tank as it is, only way to get a reasonable (pre t3 BCs) tank is to make it less efficient for the job it's supposed to do.

In short they need looking at and make them at least stand more chance of survival whislt they're doing the job they're supposed to do.


That was about belt rats. If you want a pvp tank go look at the one I posted.




If you're talking just belt rats in hi-sec then you don't need to tank a hulk, just let your combat drones get rid of them. But belt rats in hi-sec are not the real threat to a Hulk these days.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#145 - 2012-04-11 14:05:13 UTC
Sasha Azala wrote:




If you're talking just belt rats in hi-sec then you don't need to tank a hulk, just let your combat drones get rid of them. But belt rats in hi-sec are not the real threat to a Hulk these days.


Hence my fit which can take an arty tornado and just keep on smiling.
Alara IonStorm
#146 - 2012-04-11 14:09:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Tippia wrote:
…so how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with?

Well no one asked for a 1600mm Plate, they asked for a Large Shield Extender. Iterons T1 so we will use the T2 Iteron's the Occator and Viator...

Hey you can fit both of them with a LSE. Oh and most of the lows are free Cargo Expanders even after a DCU.

Looks like CCP designed these ships right.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#147 - 2012-04-11 14:13:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
Quote:


Wow, talk about apples and oranges!

I will say that I'd take a hulk tank nerf if you give my hulk the agility and speed of a Rapier. Roll



Well, naturally its an extreme example, point being, the only reason hulks die, is because they are not fitted properly, 36K EHP is plenty enough to deter almost any gank, I mean Jesus, it would take 4 Nados to alpha the thing, thats definetaly not isk efficient.
Sasha Azala
Doomheim
#148 - 2012-04-11 14:13:34 UTC
Arkon Olacar wrote:
Sasha Azala wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Nura Taron wrote:

Using a tank that costs thousands of times more than the tank others ships of its size need.


In high sec, it needs no tank mods at all. In 0.0 it can tank the belts with a token effort.




That's rubbish, if I had not fitted the Hulk to tank in hi-sec I would have lost both Hulks that were suicided, both survived but that was before there were any t3 BC. I doubt either would have survived if a t3 BC had attacked them.


The Hulk is a crap vessel to tank as it is, only way to get a reasonable (pre t3 BCs) tank is to make it less efficient for the job it's supposed to do.

In short they need looking at and make them at least stand more chance of survival whislt they're doing the job they're supposed to do.

Cruisers - designed for combat, so have decent armour and shields
Battleships - designed for combat, so have decent armour and shields
Industrials - designed for haulage, so have decent cargo capacity
Mining barges - designed for mining, so have access to unique mining lasers

I see no problem here. Each ship is designed for its purpose. Giving a hulk a good tank would be like giving an industrial eight turret slots; it is inappropriate for the ship class, and has nothing in common with the intended purpose of the ship.



And they need to be made so they can potentially survive a suicide attack more successfully as that is the threat to them. If you were in a war and the equipment you had was useless against a certain attack and you were losing many, you would either stop using them and replace them with something else or improve the existing equipment. I see no problem with upgrading them as that would be a natural course of their development.
BrutalButFair
Fleet of the Damned
#149 - 2012-04-11 14:13:50 UTC
[Hulk]
Reactor Control Unit II
Carpo Mining Laser Upgrade
Republic Fleet Medium Shield Extender
Pithum A-Type EM Ward Amplifier
Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster
Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II

Works fine to me :) (20k ehp + 271dps repair)

cargohold full in 6 cycles
bornaa
GRiD.
#150 - 2012-04-11 14:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: bornaa
Today, 150 TIMES cheaper ship can kill hulk! UghUgh
And, what when you completely tank your hulk and loose all its benefits?
Then it will it will be "only " 50 TIMES price difference??? RollRollRoll
[Yes, I'm an Amateur](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRa-69uBmIw&feature=relmfu)
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#151 - 2012-04-11 14:17:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Kengutsi Akira
Arkon Olacar wrote:

Cruisers - designed for combat, so have decent armour and shields
Battleships - designed for combat, so have decent armour and shields
Industrials - designed for haulage, so have decent cargo capacity
Mining barges - designed for mining, so have access to unique mining lasers

I see no problem here. Each ship is designed for its purpose. Giving a hulk a good tank would be like giving an industrial eight turret slots; it is inappropriate for the ship class, and has nothing in common with the intended purpose of the ship.


Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Quite irrelevant.

The point is, they're both the same kind of ship: a non-combat industrial-type ship meant for one thing and one thing only (and, just to repeat that: it's not combat). You can still squeeze 30k EHP out of a Hulk, and that's fairly respectable for what it is and what it's supposed to be doing.


Youre right. they should make it so you CANT
AT ALL
fit defensive stuff on that "NON COMBAT" ship

as it is after all non combat


wasnt meant as a tossaway troll, was being serious

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#152 - 2012-04-11 14:18:43 UTC
Sasha Azala wrote:

The Hulk is a crap vessel to tank as it is, only way to get a reasonable (pre t3 BCs) tank is to make it less efficient for the job it's supposed to do.

In short they need looking at and make them at least stand more chance of survival whislt they're doing the job they're supposed to do.


So you have to make a compromise between efficiency and survivability. How outrageous! It's almost like I had to fit plates, nano membranes and Damage control on my Abaddon instead of only heat sinks in pvp, making my ship less efficient for the job it's supposed to do – killing – only to stand a chance for survival... oh, wait.

Whatever. I never tried suicide-ganking before (killing miners only in wormholes), and have never been ganked, so I have a question: How can one thrasher gank a hulk in hisec? Even an unfitted hulk has 9.2k ehp. A t2-fitted max-dps thrasher should need nine salvos or about 20 seconds to do that much damage. Do you have 20 seconds in hisec before Concord kills you?

And a Tornado can do enough damage to kill unfitted Hulk with one salvo, but fit a single damage control to the hulk and it survives easily. To fire a second salvo, the tornado would have to wait about 17 seconds...

Am I right to assume that to kill a properly tanked hulk in hisec you'd need two Tornados or a greater number of destroyers?

.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#153 - 2012-04-11 14:18:47 UTC
BrutalButFair wrote:
[Hulk]
Reactor Control Unit II
Carpo Mining Laser Upgrade
Republic Fleet Medium Shield Extender
Pithum A-Type EM Ward Amplifier
Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster
Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II

Works fine to me :) (20k ehp + 271dps repair)

cargohold full in 6 cycles



Obvious troll is obvious, also, alpha
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#154 - 2012-04-11 14:25:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Tippia wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Yeah when a PvP ship sucks people dump it and go for a similar worth and role another ship.

When a mining ship sucks people dump it and go for .... oh wait, that's it.

[…]

You can buy a fully insurable covetor, have somewhat less yield. Cost approximates zero, yield is o(Hulk), tank is o(Hulk), that is covetor WILL die but at zero cost.
…so in other words, there is no real need to buff the Hulk since there is a viable alternative, and yet the Hulk is the ship everyone uses. In fact, it's one of the most used ships in the game, so it can't be nearly as bad as people make it out to be.


In other words, when you have 1 choice for 1 task (even if required in great numbers) that's the choice you get.


Tippia wrote:
Pak Narhoo wrote:
The Hulk was designed with the gameplay of 2006 in mind. We're 5+ years further now.
The Hulk in these days needs a buff to be able, even tough oh so slightly, to cope (just a little bit), with the challenges of today.
What challenges are those and what buffs would that be? It rather sounds like people are stuck in the gameplay of 2006 and refuse to adapt it to the realities of 2012 (viz. by fitting a tank).


Guess why they buffed destroyers? They brought them up to current specs (and did it wrong, because they keep re-buffing everything causing a stats inflation feedback). If "bringing up to 2012" is their politic, then all the ships should have a chance to be brought up to 2012 standards. You can't double some ships damage while leaving others as is.

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QU0RRA
Isomorphic Algorithms
#155 - 2012-04-11 14:26:41 UTC
This is going to shock some people, but as a 100% at the keyboard miner who uses 7 accounts (2 orcas and 5 hulks) I can absoutely state that the Hulk is perfect as is and DOES NOT need any buff.

I fit mine out for max yeild, but do so knowing that I could lose my ships if ganked, but I could lose ANY ship if the gankers really want to get me. I chose to do that knowing the risks because I mitigate this by first of all being at the feckin keyboard, keeping an eye on local, using the system scanner and being in a quiet minnie system since all the bozos use Caldari space like lemings. I can't be aligned due to using a static TANKED orca with bonuses (hence the other cargo orca).

Using these tactics I have NEVER been ganked since 2007. If I get ganked, so what, the gankers are just playing eve the way they want, just like I play the way I want. As an Industrialist (note not carebear, I bite back when provoked mofo Big smile) I can replace any loss within 1 - 2 days. As I do so regularly with my FW loses.

BTW, cant wait for hulkageddon, might activaly participate this year as I detest bots and AFK'ers. The mining system is no excuse for AFK'ing. If bots are removed, drone poo is replaced by bounties and mineral prices go up then the current system of belt mining doesnt need to change FOR BELTS.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#156 - 2012-04-11 14:32:00 UTC
bornaa wrote:
Today, 150 TIMES cheaper ship can kill hulk! UghUgh
Yes? So? That's a good thing.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
In other words, when you have 1 choice for 1 task (even if required in great numbers) that's the choice you get.
…which means the Hulk isn't a problem since you obviously have more than one choice. You and many others keep pointing this out in this very thread. You have demonstrated that there are other choices, which aren't being used because the Hulk provides enough benefit to be worth it. Consequently, there is absolutely no reason to buff it.

Quote:
Guess why they buffed destroyers?
Because they were woefully inadequate since inception compared to what you'd get out of frigates and cruisers. It also provided gankers with a much-needed buff to counteract the many security buffs highsec have received over the years.
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2012-04-11 14:34:55 UTC
BrutalButFair wrote:
[Hulk]
Reactor Control Unit II
Carpo Mining Laser Upgrade
Republic Fleet Medium Shield Extender
Pithum A-Type EM Ward Amplifier
Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster
Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II

Works fine to me :) (20k ehp + 271dps repair)

cargohold full in 6 cycles



LOL You could buy several hulks just for the cost of the invuln field and shield booster. 
This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.  Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless
BrutalButFair
Fleet of the Damned
#158 - 2012-04-11 14:38:18 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
BrutalButFair wrote:
[Hulk]
Reactor Control Unit II
Carpo Mining Laser Upgrade
Republic Fleet Medium Shield Extender
Pithum A-Type EM Ward Amplifier
Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster
Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II

Works fine to me :) (20k ehp + 271dps repair)

cargohold full in 6 cycles



Obvious troll is obvious, also, alpha


Why would you say troll? EFT begs to differ. Only prob is 17 mins of cap. But he, you don't need the booster all the time right :) natural shield repair already is 84 dps. That's more then sufficient in highsec.
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#159 - 2012-04-11 14:38:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Kengutsi Akira
Tippia wrote:
bornaa wrote:
Today, 150 TIMES cheaper ship can kill hulk! UghUgh
Yes? So? That's a good thing.
.


Yea ships shouldnt be invulnerable to attack from smaller ones

BrutalButFair wrote:


Why would you say troll? EFT begs to differ. Only prob is 17 mins of cap. But he, you don't need the booster all the time right :) natural shield repair already is 84 dps. That's more then sufficient in highsec.


Probably cause if youre trying to argue you only have to deal with belt rats in High sec you ARE trolling.

or being obtuse

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#160 - 2012-04-11 14:48:37 UTC
I've yet to see a sensible (ie: game balance-based) argument against enabling Hulks to fit Large Shield Extenders.

I honestly don't care at all for the "but they're supposed to be non combat ships" arguments. Game balance is more important than fluff every time. Come to that, Amarr are supposed to be far more advanced than the other races, but CCP discarded the idea of making Amarr ships more powerful.

By far the greatest danager to Hulks comes from player ships, not rats. And the ability of player ships to attack Hulks has expanded far faster than the ability of Hulks to withstand them.

By all means jig the Hulk's fittings so that fitting a Meta 4 LSE means that you need a fitting mod and can't put in any MLUs - much like putting an MSE is now. But an LSE should indisputably be a viable module on a Hulk fit that's focused on tank.

It honestly won't make all that much difference: greedy idiots will still mine with 0 tank mods and 2x T2 cargo rigs. But the alert, capable player who wants to actually protect his ship should have a better option than a Frigate shield module.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016