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so the hulk WTF CCP?!!?!? First post
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baltec1

Bat Country

Pandemic Horde

Likes received: 19,001

#101 - 2012-04-11 11:26:09 UTC

Jojo Jackson wrote:

True ..

BUT PvP guys like to whine like sissys "risk v reward".

Using a T1 Destroyer which cost about 15m with guns and w-ups to eazy mode gank a 300m (WITHOUT mods) T2 ship ..

not enough risk for the reward!

It is YOU (wannabe PvPler) who over abuse this "risk v reward"! Not the miners.

After CCP buffed the Destroyer, Projectil and Hybrid guns ... they destroyed any balance for Mining+Industrial ships.

Now they MUST fix this balance problem again (nerf Destroyer+Hybrid+Projectil OR .. better for both sides buff mining+industrial ships).

No. You must fit a tank to stop them.

Prince Kobol

Likes received: 2,558

#102 - 2012-04-11 11:27:10 UTC

Jojo Jackson wrote:

Prince Kobol wrote:

Personally I think this is a pointless discussion for the simple reason EVERY SHIP an be ganked and it has been covered god knows how many times.

There is no balance problem.

The problem is that people want to be able to mine afk and are too damn lazy to do any kind of intel and to work together.

Tippia

Sunshine and Lollipops

Likes received: 27,526

#103 - 2012-04-11 11:29:37 UTC | Edited by: Tippia

Jojo Jackson wrote:

Using a T1 Destroyer which cost about 15m with guns and w-ups to eazy mode gank a 300m (WITHOUT mods) T2 ship ..

not enough risk for the reward!

It's 100% risk and what is the reward?

Quote:

It is YOU (wannabe PvPler) who over abuse this "risk v reward"! Not the miners.

Good job missing the point: the problem is that the miners refuse to accept the increased risk that comes with the increased reward — want more yield (reward)? Then you get higher risk (less tank). Want more yield again (reward)? Then you get higher risk (more expensive ship).

Quote:

Now they MUST fix this balance problem again (nerf Destroyer+Hybrid+Projectil OR .. better for both sides buff mining+industrial ships).

What balance problem? Fitting a tank still makes you impervious to these ships, even after the buff. Yes, if there are a whole bunch of them you die, but guess what — welcome to the numbers game where 1+n > 1 (for positive n).

TheBlueMonkey

Center for Advanced Studies

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 716

#104 - 2012-04-11 11:33:28 UTC

Prince Kobol wrote:

Jojo Jackson wrote:

Prince Kobol wrote:

Personally I think this is a pointless discussion for the simple reason EVERY SHIP an be ganked and it has been covered god knows how many times.

There is no balance problem.

The problem is that people want to be able to mine afk and are too damn lazy to do any kind of intel and to work together.

This is why they should allow mining bots or make mining some kind of interesting\taxing tbh.
Not even the miners want to mine when they mine.

Danny John-Peter

The Congregation

RAPID HEAVY ROPERS

Likes received: 579

#105 - 2012-04-11 11:35:02 UTC | Edited by: Danny John-Peter

This Again...

Sigh

[Rapier, Shield Standard] (I AM A ******* DEDICATED COMBAT VESSEL)
Damage Control II
Overdrive Injector System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Dark Blood Warp Disruptor
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Stasis Webifier II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake M
Cynosural Field Generator I
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Core Scanner Probe I
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

26K EHP Before Links

[Hulk, Tanked Hulk] (I AM TANKED PROPERLY)
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium Shield Extender II
Upgraded EM Ward Amplifier I

Strip Miner I
Strip Miner I
Strip Miner I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

32k EHP Before Links

(Also, if attacked, heat invuls for 36k EHP and even better resists)

Now you see, that seems awful unfair, nerf hulks IMO

Buzzmong

Aliastra

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 276

#106 - 2012-04-11 11:35:31 UTC

The Hulk is a broken design anyway.

By CCP's own admission, T2 are meant to be more specialised. The Mackinaw and Skiff are brilliant examples of this by being better at specific types of mining (Ice and Mercoxit respectively), but the Hulk is just an all round better Covetor.

Arguably, the Covetor should be the best miner in terms of m3 pulled for normal rocks and the Hulk should do something different like either being a tanky mofo (really not a good idea as they need to pop), being specialised for Gas Havesting or something else that's unique to it (automatic ore compression maybe? Useful bonus but being popped with a full hold will hurt more).

Of course, doing this would also make mining a bit more lucrative as well, as the amount mined goes down a little.


baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Horde Likes received: 19,001	#107 - 2012-04-11 11:54:43 UTC Buzzmong wrote: Arguably, the Covetor should be the best miner in terms of m3 pulled for normal rocks and the Hulk should do something different like either being a tanky mofo. It is. The problem is people set it up for max mining then whine when their ship with no tanking mods at all gets torn apart by a destroyer.

Aqriue

Center for Advanced Studies

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 738

#108 - 2012-04-11 11:55:24 UTC | Edited by: Aqriue

Oh, awesome how some chumps don't think the hulk needs a buff. With all kind of excuses, they will always be against it. Lets get CCP to bring down the Freighter and Jump Freighter to the same effective tank as the Hulk (JF gets 20K htpoints like the hlk, Freighter gets roughtly 9k like industrials). Align time stays the same. Bang, we got balance. Thats fair! Talking about 3-10 destroyers, valued up to 20m to destroy your 850m / 4 billion isk ship excluding cargo.

So, how would you feel that your investment of billions and many months of time spent training would get smoked again and again by a dude who trained a throw away character under a day? Sure you risked it and relized it was just as dumb to fly a hulk, but one would have to think that both sides should risk something of near equal value beyond 5m to score a 200m ship killmail since both of you pay the same monthly subscription

edit: and I am all for just removing asteroid belts, grav sites, reducing reprocessing yield, no SP reassignment for the miners and everything stays the same. Enjoy that version of EVE when hulks are totally useless, you got nothing to blow up, and you have difficulty replacing a ship since the supply will always be tiny.

Prince Kobol

Likes received: 2,558

#109 - 2012-04-11 11:57:53 UTC

Aqriue wrote:

Oh dear god

Droxlyn

School of Applied Knowledge

Caldari State

Likes received: 120

#110 - 2012-04-11 12:00:42 UTC | Edited by: Droxlyn

Some T2 medium ship classes to compare: (base)
Class Shield HP Armor HP Hull HP CPU Grid
Hulk 1519 1013 2531 300 35
Covetor 781 1250 1875 200 35
---
Bustard 3516 2391 3938 250 200
Crane 1758 1196 1969 285 125
---
Basilisk 2109 1125 1287 510 825
---
Nighthawk 4805 3363 3844 555 710
Vulture 4805 3363 3844 545 1275

Should a Hulk be able to fit this (about 35,024 EHP)?:
[Hulk, Hulk]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Amplifier II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Cargohold Optimization I
Medium Cargohold Optimization I

If so, then it needs +150 power grid and +100 CPU give or take.

Even a Crane can fit a LSE2 with no problem.
This Crane works today (about 40,870 EHP):
[Crane, EHP]
Power Diagnostic System II
Damage Control II

Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Amplifier II
Medium Shield Extender II

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

So should a Hulk be able to do the same (about 46,990 EHP)?
[Hulk, LSE2]
Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II

Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Amplifier II
Medium Shield Extender II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

(LSE2 Hulk Yield is 1302/minute)

Yield of 1058/minute for
[Covetor, Disposable Miner]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Co-Processor I

EM Ward Amplifier I

Strip Miner I
Strip Miner I
Strip Miner I

Yield of 1234/minute for
[Covetor, Disposable Miner T2]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Co-Processor I

EM Ward Amplifier I

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

It almost does not make financial sense to ever use a Hulk if the choice is between 1436 (max hulk) and 1234 (max covetor) (202 m3/minute)

I think the hulk should have a decent survivability with full-miner mode on and a great surviviablility if you
back it down a notch. For the investment, it should be awesome. As it is, it is an expensive covetor.

Tippia

Sunshine and Lollipops

Likes received: 27,526

#111 - 2012-04-11 12:00:59 UTC | Edited by: Tippia

Aqriue wrote:

Oh, awesome how some chumps don't think the hulk needs a buff.

…largely because no-one can come up with a useful argument why it needs one that can't be answered with “fit a tank”.

Quote:

Lets get CCP to bring down the Freighter and Jump Freighter to the same effective tank as the Hulk (JF gets 20K htpoints like the hlk, Freighter gets roughtly 9k like industrials). Align time stays the same. Bang, we got balance.

How is it balanced?

Quote:

one would have to think that both sides should risk something of near equal value

No. Balance doesn't work that way. Cost is not a balancing factor.

Droxlyn wrote:

Should a Hulk be able to fit this (about 35,024 EHP)?:

You can already get a Hulk to 35k EHP, and as has been pointed out numerous times by now, if the difference is really that small between the Covetor and the Hulk, and it makes such financial sense to use the Covetor instead, how come the Hulk is one of the most used ships in the game? The usage pattern does not support the supposition that it needs any kind of fix.

Eternum Praetorian

Doomheim

Likes received: 1,240

#112 - 2012-04-11 12:02:20 UTC | Edited by: Eternum Praetorian

Your hulk only has tech I guns on it though.
Your rapier on the other hand gets not only Tech II Guns, but a faction probe, a cyno generator and a cover ops cloak all central to it's "Tech II" purpose.

Danny John-Peter wrote:

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

Danny John-Peter

The Congregation

RAPID HEAVY ROPERS

Likes received: 579

#113 - 2012-04-11 12:07:04 UTC | Edited by: Danny John-Peter

Eternum Praetorian wrote:

Your hulk only has tech I guns on it though.
Where as your rapier gets Tech I IGuns, a faction probe, a cyno generator and a cover ops cloak.

Danny John-Peter wrote:

Yup, and to do that it sacrifices quite a fair bit of tank.

(Oh and put a T1 720mm if you want, it makes no difference, its not there to kill things)

Every hulk I have seen that gets ganked is not tanked, at all.

EDIT; Also, 29k EHP

[Hulk, Tanked Hulk]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium Shield Extender II
Upgraded EM Ward Amplifier I

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Horde Likes received: 19,001	#114 - 2012-04-11 12:07:25 UTC Droxlyn wrote: stuff A hulk will tank 33k which is in the same range as most t2 cruisers.


Eternum Praetorian Doomheim Likes received: 1,240	#115 - 2012-04-11 12:08:08 UTC Show me a respectable Hulk tank with tech II strip miners and a roid scanner. [center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

Prince Kobol

Likes received: 2,558

#116 - 2012-04-11 12:11:22 UTC

Droxlyn wrote:

Stuff about comparing ships

So now people are saying that CCP should buff the hulk because of the Covetor.

Hulk can mine more, tank a lot more, can carry more cargo, has better resists, has more CPU, has a better capacitor.

Erm.. Hulk is a better ship then a Covetor.

Also do not use price as an argument since its the player base, not CCP that dictates the price.

Raven Ether

Doomheim

Likes received: 164

#117 - 2012-04-11 12:11:39 UTC

MeBiatch wrote:

never minned a day in my life other than that mission that made me mine once...

so i was looking at the hulk today and was wondering why there are so many high sec bear tears... when i noticed it had this awesome resist bonus profile but it cant fit a bloody LSE?!?!??!

either fix the damn ship ccp or add the 5th subsystem to TIII ships that are indy/minning based... shesh!

T3 Industrial, please.

plz
plx
pl0z
pl0x
plox
plzzz
plss
pls
please
plea of help from the infinite heavens

baltec1

Bat Country

Pandemic Horde

Likes received: 19,001

#118 - 2012-04-11 12:14:44 UTC

Eternum Praetorian wrote:

Show me a respectable Hulk tank with tech II strip miners and a roid scanner.

[Hulk, New Setup 2]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Rock-Scanning Sensor Array I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

Use a +4 implant to fit. 29k tank.

You can use more implants to get the tank even bigger.

Mara Rinn

Cosmic Goo Convertor

Likes received: 6,095

#119 - 2012-04-11 12:17:50 UTC

Eternum Praetorian wrote:

Show me a respectable Hulk tank with tech II strip miners and a roid scanner.

Put the survey scanner on the Orca, which is bonuses for that hardware Lol

Fit the hulk for maximum yield, keep your eye on local, spam D-scan. If you see incoming, dock the hulk in the Orca, swapping it for the Basilisk that was in the hangar. Now you can get your Orca out unless the bad guys are flying in a fleet of ships to gank the orca.

It would, of course, be wonderful if you could fit an MWD and three gang links to the Orca, but we can't have everything. So fit fed navy webs to the basilisks (you have two hulk/basilisk pilots, right?) and you should be able to get that Orca out too. Or skip the basilisks, use Daredevils or Ashimmus: ships that have bonuses to webifier strength.

Fitted for maximum yield, those two hulks are going to be requiring your attention to be on the computer anyway.

Day 0 Advice for New Players


Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops Likes received: 27,526	#120 - 2012-04-11 12:18:02 UTC \| Edited by: Tippia Eternum Praetorian wrote: Show me a respectable Hulk tank with tech II strip miners and a roid scanner. 2× Invuln II, SSE II, DC II, PDU II, 2× CDFE → 27k. …but as mentioned, the scanner should be on the Orca anyway, which lets you squeeze another Invuln there and get up to 35k+.

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