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Ultimate Hardcore Cloneing - WIP
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Jasmin Vito
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-04-08 06:29:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jasmin Vito
WIP

Brief Intro
Before I start let me just say that I know I haven not played for very long myself, however I was tossing this idea around in my head for a little and with another person about the concept of having to actually protect your clones and consciousnesses. The concept is really aimed at those long term players who are looking for the next big challenge or simply just want to take part in an enhanced hardcore mode that offers something worthwhile for the effort.


The Idea
If you have been playing for over a 6 months - 12months (time-frame is definitely negotiable) you unlock an option that you may opt into accepting that will consequently allows you to create a clone facility and this will become your FIRST clones official HQ, meaning that it would essentially become the building that holds your original self, Once you do this all current existing methods of creating jump clones and or any other clone will fall to your own responsibility in keeping those two structures alive and well.

This CloneHQ would be under your own protection and it would be your own job to maintain your survival in relation to this concept it would be that you need to protect that HQ at all costs by moving it if you have too. Additionally you can buy one additional Clone Facility which would serve as your backup. The catch is that you can only ever own one of each, if you lose one it is gone for good.

If the CloneHQ and Clone Facility were both destroyed you could no longer make additional clones to re-spawn into and then if you lost all your created clones (Jump Clones) it's game over, as in your character gets removed consider it the same as deleting the character from your account. These two facility's could be placed in HIGHSEC if desired.



What would be the PROS and the CONS

Pros

  • Any future character upon creation starts with a selection of 6 certs to highest level chosen upon creation.
  • Any future character starts with some amount of ISK.
  • You can start anywhere in the EvE Universe.
  • Unlock some form of whole new tier of mods
  • Ability to have any two of your ships be remote controlled like an NPC Wing-man this is applied too all existing and new characters tied to the account. (Of course these would be limited to running only in missions and or running freight around)
  • Possible 30 day 0.0 sec Concord protection if you choose to setup your facility in those sectors of space.

Cons

  • The choice is permanent. (But can be opted out of at a price and only once a year see below)
  • Every new character made after you opt in also must be protected in the same manner.
  • If you lose your CloneHQ and your Clone Facility you cannot produce any more clones and then if you lose your existing capsule pilots you lose your character.
  • You only can build one of each facility if you lose one you do not get it back.


How would I get this character back if I really really wanted too?
Well if you really think it was a mistake and you want your character back you could either use the account manager and PEX to purchase the character back or you could use the PEX in game at any of your other characters Facility's.

Final Thoughts
Although there is much that would need to be looked over before introducing anything quite like this including the idea it self could use some more polish so please if you have something mature to add do so.
Behedwin
RSP Enterprises
#2 - 2012-04-08 09:46:56 UTC
i vote no

start with 100mil isk... eve got way to much isk in it already
wouldent ppl just start accounts to earn 100mil isk...

dont see the point of this
it seems to be way to hard to rly kill someone and be sure he dont have a backup etc.
so in the end what does it add, just extra stuff to do for the individual pilot... nothing that ads to the group play.
Jasmin Vito
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-04-08 10:51:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jasmin Vito
I was thinking and I came to the same conclusion, but this is why I posted it here as you guys have experience with the game I do not. I was hoping you guys could help reform the idea to something that could be accepted.

Edit
Doh I forgot to include the part about how you would get 1x CloneHQ and 1x Clone Facility you can only ever have one of each and if they get destroyed you cannot rebuild them. For instance if you lose your HQ you have your backup, lose the backup you have the HQ, lose both you have nothing left but any remaining Jump Clones.

We all know that we use clones to pilot so every time you fly a ship your taking a big risk because if you pop that is one less life you have left.

Edit2
Updated main post with reflected thoughts.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#4 - 2012-04-08 11:08:18 UTC
Diablo hardcore mode in EvE? So people who have trained for 10 years lose everything? I bet they will be happy.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Jasmin Vito
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-04-08 11:20:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jasmin Vito
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Diablo hardcore mode in EvE? So people who have trained for 10 years lose everything? I bet they will be happy.

Well if you don't want the risk don't opt in, hence the opt in function and only done via the account management.

Additionally to this risk you get ability to start at a new character at a some what 3month pre-trained mark any where in the universe. Also you can reveres your decision, obviously only after a certain amount of time has passed since you made the choice, I provided an estimated time frame.

I said I only wanted mature discussion about the idea, If you don't like the idea that's fine, I don't see a reason to post at all if you are not interested. Sorry to sound like an old bastard but I rather not dis the idea based on personal opinion. Since you are relating this to Diablo what do you think will happen in when D3 rolls out, people will roll hardcore trust me.

I get the fact that this idea would pose a sufficient almost crazy risk factor but like everything else in EvE no risk no gain, some people have already spent 10 years on corps and things like that another corp could take it all away I bet they would be feeling much same as if the character got deleted.

Note: I have no intention to sign up for this if it was me but I still thought about the concept. I will say again I posted this for reflection and positive ides to include to the concept, I have tossed around some thoughts about enhanced loot or mods being re searchable but have not got any solid ideas on this worthy of posting at this stage. Might I just the fact that you could place these in Hisec then destroying them would become a task for the established and well planned attacker.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-04-08 11:33:15 UTC
Jasmin Vito wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Diablo hardcore mode in EvE? So people who have trained for 10 years lose everything? I bet they will be happy.

Well if you don't want the risk don't opt in, hence the opt in function and only done via the account management.

Additionally to this risk you get ability to start at a new character at a some what 3month pre-trained mark any where in the universe. Also you can reveres your decision, obviously only after a certain amount of time has passed since you made the choice, I provided an estimated time frame.

I said I only wanted mature discussion about the idea, If you don't like the idea that's fine, I don't a reason post at all if you are not interested. Sorry to sound like an old bastard but I rather not dis the idea based on personal opinion. I have no intention to sign up for this if it was me but I still thought about the concept.



I don't understand what this is even for. it seems to serve no real purpose other then to ...

I'm not even sure what purpose this serves. I don't understand why anyone would want this service at all. Just because its optional doesnt mean its worth the programming time. or even the art departments time for the new structures(?) i dont even know what these clone how things are supposed to be, modules /structures/ ships/ what?

also whats to stop a person from creating new jump clones at a rorqual/mom? clone bays ftw, or would they work like the actual jump clones and not have anything to do with sp retention/destruction ?

I don't have any alts that are close to your age, they are all older, In fact this is my youngest alt. Please play the game a bit more before you start suggesting things that don't make sense. how about more then the free trial time?


Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Jasmin Vito
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-04-08 12:35:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jasmin Vito
Kusum Fawn wrote:

..... I didn't read.


Well the fact that you have no clue and think this is about some sort of new clone screams you did not read a single line, and instead posted anyway.

What this is about is actually bringing some attention to the fact that you have a real you somewhere and not just clones. With the idea being that you would have these two structures which are the basics for creating your additional jump clones the very ones you make now you would need these two buildings to make.

So further more the REAL you the one who is controlling all these clones would be in your own personal HQ with idea that if you lost both of these structure you would be at a great risk due to the fact you would only be able to die and rebirth for how ever many clones you had created that are still existing.

If you lost all of your existing clones then its game over chr gets deleted, I bet not a lot of people are huge fans of this idea but that is why it comes with perks and opt in.

Actually read the top post please it does make sense, I'm talking about the ability to actually control the survival of your character not just by not getting poped but by literally having too protect the very buildings that create more of you. If I am missing important information about how EvE works and why this idea simply could not work then enlighten me, don't just rubbish the idea because you don't understand it.

I know full well that there are going to be flaws in this concept but that is why I bothered to post it, I was talking to someone in game who has been playing for over a year and they suggested it I should take the idea here as it was somewhat interesting to them how something like this could play out.

So I am here discussing the concept and looking for like minded people who are actually willing to share some something useful to help fill in and flaws this concept has.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#8 - 2012-04-08 13:21:07 UTC
I can agree it would be cool to have a place that I could call my own 100%. But I don't want hardcore mode. Remember the shitstorm that followed the announcement of splitting battlecruiser skill? People raging wildly over 20 days of training.

Your problem with this idea is that they are in fact going to redo POS so that everyone can have them. From small, one man POS to huge ones. If I may be so bold, maybe you thought of this idea because you wanted your own "home structure", and wanted to add more than just a useless hangar, so you added risk of total death? If I can have this in highsec, with the ability to make jumpclones at will, immunity from wardeccing and protection from concord, I'm all for it.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-04-08 15:38:21 UTC
Pro-tip: OP is an idiot.

EVE is way to harsh. But there is no point to pay a monthly sub, opt in, then have someone else completely wipe out $500 that I paid for to invest in my own time. WHY WOULD YOU WILLING ERASE WHAT YOU PAID FOR? Thats like going down to the electronic store, buying a 50 inch (what ever the whacky Europeans use in the metric system) flatscreen TV, take it out to the parking lot, then run it over BUT you don't bother to get it replace. WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO LOSE SOMETHING OF VALUE ON PUROSE? It just doesn't make sense nor would I want to allow someone to screw me over.
MushroomMushroom
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-04-08 16:06:45 UTC
The proposed jumpstart of 6 certs really does not justify the massive risk the player would undertake, not to mention the fact that the account would already have a main character with 12 months of training done, more then the other two new jumpstarted characters combined.

I'm not saying the hardcore concept is a good idea, but if it were to go anywhere at all, it would need to offer permanent advantages in exchange for the permanent increase in risk.
Jasmin Vito
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-04-08 16:19:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Jasmin Vito
Hannott Thanos wrote:
I can agree it would be cool to have a place that I could call my own 100%. But I don't want hardcore mode. Remember the shitstorm that followed the announcement of splitting battlecruiser skill? People raging wildly over 20 days of training.

Your problem with this idea is that they are in fact going to redo POS so that everyone can have them. From small, one man POS to huge ones. If I may be so bold, maybe you thought of this idea because you wanted your own "home structure", and wanted to add more than just a useless hangar, so you added risk of total death? If I can have this in highsec, with the ability to make jumpclones at will, immunity from wardeccing and protection from concord, I'm all for it.


Thats the spirit, I was playing around those same ideas as well, like so you place these in highsec but they totally change how jumpclones are made now and instead you make your own useing this system.


MushroomMushroom wrote:
The proposed jumpstart of 6 certs really does not justify the massive risk the player would undertake, not to mention the fact that the account would already have a main character with 12 months of training done, more then the other two new jumpstarted characters combined.

I'm not saying the hardcore concept is a good idea, but if it were to go anywhere at all, it would need to offer permanent advantages in exchange for the permanent increase in risk.

What would you consider a good asking price then for such a risk ?, These are what I don't know I only suggested an idea feel free to come up with your own and I will add them to OP. What about something more reasonable like your other toons get to pick 6 new certs up all the way up to second highest rank or something. Maybe even all your ships unlock 1-2 new mod slots, there could even be an entire new tier of upgrades based around this that all of your characters could use.




@These Haters
I don't appreciate the tone around here, calling me an idiot for wanting to take bigger risks than you are is just rude. I don't understand EvE very well, I said this right in the OP if you were going to tarnish the idea you could have at least done so by explaining why it would be a bad idea without the insults.

I said this a couple posts up as well. Besides this an idea you just don't like because the game is super hard already does not make me an idiot.

I stated above and in the OP post that YOU COULD PLACE THEM IN HIGHSEC and that you COULD USE PEX TO OPT BACK OUT and if you OPT in not knowing the risks and do something stupid then that is your own fault I don't see how this is any different than spending all the money you say you would have spent and then having another Corp come in and wreck your **** years down the drain. Also Smashing a TV is different than this game for a start a 50 what ever will cost you about 1000 bux or more. Secondly people delete toons everyday for fun in other mmo's how is that different than this other than your not being rewarded for retiring the game you come back with nothing if you come back that way in the other MMO's.

Granted this idea is a little too hard but I posted it here to test the waters it can always be tweaked. The basic concept with out the lose of your character i not that bad so stop seeing the negative and give me positive suggestions please.


Seriously EvE is supposed to be better known for its players having higher IQ's and generally less childish crap, so far I have only seen one person comment in a constructive manner. I am not going to waste my time replying to anymore of you haters after this.

Edit
I have made changes to the OP as it is clear that we need a better incentive to do this and also some sort of way to reverse it at some expense. Please look over these changes and let me know what you think.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-04-08 20:30:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Kusum Fawn
1. rorqual can use a clone vat bay. it makes jump clones. you are rendering this obsolete by haveing to have an additional two structures? or do you not know about clone vat bays?

2. Why would i not want the real me to be in a station? NPC and immutable? Why wouldn't i want my base to be , say at the DED station in Yulai? What possible bonus to the game could dropping it into space provide me?

3. what does this mean

"Secondly people delete toons everyday for fun in other mmo's how is that different than this other than your not being rewarded for retiring the game you come back with nothing if you come back that way in the other MMO's. "

this sentence doesnt make much sense to me,
~what reward does this game give you for retiring?
~you have to delete the character in other games for it to not be there right? (just as you can biomass your current character in this game)
~If you biomass (delete) your character here (Eve) you dont get its things or sp on another character so the analogy is the same no? what difference are you trying to hilight?

4. The way the game lore is constructed now, you have a "real you" its the station you wake up in when you get podded. You can change which station the "real you" wakes up in because you have transited your body/consciousnesses?whatever to that station.

5. NPC wingmen? really? this is about wanting a bot? really? I can see people doing this for that reason alone, however the idea is both directly against CCP ideals (power of two deals, anti bot campaigns, and of course lost revenue from fewer power of two deals) I'll be one of the first to give up an alt to this jsut so i can have a character with two ships. now i can have two fleets of 250 instead of one, just think oi what the goons could do if they had twice their numbers.
****, im more then a year old, the main on this account is older i wonder what i could do with an alt wing man for my 70 mil sp character.

the question remains, to what benefit does this suggestion (your suggestion) provide to anyone? other then a theoretical reason to wardec hisec corps ? or is that the whole reason?

Can you answer the questions asked of you instead of just saying
"Oh you obviously didnt read it because if you did you wouldnt be disagreeing with me".

thats why others are calling you an idiot. i have yet to do so.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Jasmin Vito
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-04-09 04:58:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Jasmin Vito
1.Nope I had no idea about this system at all sorry, I figured once you opted in all and every method of making a clone would only become available by using the two structures you built.

2.I guess the only reason you would want to drop it into DED would be the fact you want to keep it withing your range of your megacorp HQ because I think some people do have the corp power to fight CONCORD and it might be safer in the hands of a megacrop. Other than this no real reason why dropping it somewhere dangerous would give you much benefit.

3.Oh no I was referring to the fact that in any other MMO ppl quit and when they do the sometimes decide to delete the characters or sell the account which is stupid but some people pride on doing that, So what I was getting at with this was if you had plans to quit soon you could use this idea as sort of like a somewhat interesting way to end yourself with at least a bit of a story to go along with it.. Plus when you want to come back if at all you can RE BUY your character back with PEX.

4.That is the part that I am still trying to base the idea around of, with the fact that your logical self could be housed by you in a station you have to protect as well as your clones giving the chance that when you die with neither of the factory's what you said does not take place.

You don't wake up you get an endgame death sequence or something and maybe something can be done in game as sort of like a space graveyard. Right now unless I am missing something you never actually can lose your consciousnesses if you get podded you just wake up in another clone this idea is meant to make you responsible for looking after your own consciousnesses.

5.Well that was something that could be talked about, For instance they could be NPC wingman but they might not have many of same ability's as you have and be limited in what class of ships can be used for example the EvE devs could decide how it that system would work and what the limits of these wing-man could be such as you may only be able to use them in missions for example but not in a fleet that part is yet to be decided even by me.

Does this make any more sense now to you ? I'm talking about the theory of actually housing your own consciousnesses in something that would need to keep hidden and safe and your over all ability to re spawn and stay alive would be in yours and only players hands not a magical fairy that exists only in the game engine design.

Let me know if want me to clarify any further. I honestly was not expecting so much confusion over the idea as I thought the longer running players would have figured out what it essentially would be used for and fill in the blanks such as the existing VAT system would not longer apply to you instead you rely solely on your own ability to protect your clone facility.

Edit:
Added a couple more important bits of theory to the OP as from the poster above it seems nobody is getting what this is supposed to actually change in the game.
Laioken
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2012-04-09 06:26:55 UTC
Just some thoughts on your idea,

===PROS===
"Any future character upon creation starts with a selection of 6 certs to highest level chosen upon creation."
Just about any certificate grouping of skills are worth more or less than another cert group (Large Autocannons - Standard would be worth more than Sheilding - Basic).

Same goes with some certificate lines from basic to specialist would be arguably worth more than others. However with a point system, where you would get say 100 points worth of certificates and each certificate worth a certain number of points based on training time and cost to obtain the skillbooks.

"Any future character starts with some amount of ISK."
Instead of ISK perhaps a selection of preset packages, ie a battlecruiser combat package that could contain a race specific battlecruiser, ammunition, puppies, and whatnot that are all untradeable to anybody to prevent people just using inactive alts into hardcore for a quick ISK injection.

"You can start anywhere in the EvE Universe."
Perhaps if it were a selective choice from main hubs like say Jita instead, as frankly there could be complications from people spawning into any location in the 'verse with a fully armed battleship suprise.

"Unlock some form of whole new tier of mods"
I would not agree with this part, an additional teir of mods would probably upset PVP ballance (Cue laughter here) and make sure the more diehard pvp fans among us would feel forced into making a hardcore charachter to stay on top of the game.

"Ability to have any two of your ships be remote controlled like an NPC Wing-man this is applied too all existing and new characters tied to the account. (Of course these would be limited to running only in missions and or running freight around)"
In my humble opinion this would be by far the most signifigant game changer, the ability to have a wingman. Consider that if it was applied to all charachters, anyone able to make a hardcore charachter would do so just for the benefit of having a computer controled wingman for their other non hardcore charachters.

It is a facinating idea but would need a HUGE downside of some sort, as right now i could see pilots exploiting the mission part of bringing a wingman to protect you, by say taking a mission in 0 space that just so happens to be in the same system that you might want to setup a gatecamp, participate in a raid against x party, make off-colour jokes about other peoples mothers, and so on.

Running freight around would be awfully convenient since you could just deligate your clone (Who i am assuming gets a carbon copy of all your skills) to go off and trade for you while you sit back and watch the latest Blasto film, however this would also be murdering any chance of making a market trading profit for anyone who doesnt do this option, aswell as other complications i cannot remember right now.

"Possible 30 day 0.0 sec Concord protection if you choose to setup your facility in those sectors of space."
To be blunt, no. If you were able to setup anywhere in 0 space, people may end up doing so to set up safe staging grounds for raids on other corperations who have their pockets of the 'verse under their control, not to mention there would all of a sudden be a massive influx of people who made hardcore charachters setting up something in 0 space who cant be attacked without facing a concordoken.

===CONS===
"The choice is permanent. (But can be opted out of at a price and only once a year see below)"
Well yes the choice should be permanent, but i do not see why the option of opting out would be allowed, as people would generaly do so and reap the benefits of having an incredibly signifigant boost in skills, assets and whatnot early on.

"Every new character made after you opt in also must be protected in the same manner."
Disagree on this part, one should be able to choose if they wish to have a hardcore charachter or not, especialy since the change effects all charachters regardless at least via the npc wingman part.

"If you lose your CloneHQ and your Clone Facility you cannot produce any more clones and then if you lose your existing capsule pilots you lose your character."
So what are these CloneHQ thingymawhats anyway? A module installed on a station? An actual physical object in space like a station? If it were a module on a station this would make CloneHQ's unkillable and thus safe in non 0 space, if it were in 0 space however, well that could get interesting especialy if soverignty claims changed over the station your CloneHQ was installed in and the new owner wants to clean off all the CloneHQs on his or her newly liberated station.

A physical object on the other hand would need to be incredibly durable lest an individual (or group of individuals) decide to just suicide gank one in high sec space. Setting one up in 0 space would be tantamount to suicide if a stealth bomber could just turn up and throw some unpleasantries in its direction, hostile fleet sees it, and so on.

Not sure how you would be able to make this part manageable however, but perhaps another player could enlighten me.

"You only can build one of each facility if you lose one you do not get it back."
Good enough, as it is hardcore afterall, assuming the above situation is handled to a more ballanced maner.

"How would I get this character back if I really really wanted too?
Well if you really think it was a mistake and you want your character back you could either use the account manager and PEX to purchase the character back or you could use the PEX in game at any of your other characters Facility's."
It would not be hardcore if this were possible, but more akin to "Insert Coins to continue" machines in the arcade.

In general it has interesting concepts, but begs for more refining, will need to think more on this.
Jasmin Vito
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-04-09 06:44:23 UTC
Laioken wrote:
Just Thoughts.

Will respond to this in full later but Excellent ideas, This is what I wanted to see someone who knew the game to help tidy up the kinks in this WIP.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-04-09 06:51:40 UTC
1.I cant tell if you are sarcastic or you dont really know the game, Im going to assume the latter because of #2
~ this is restricted jump clones without the standings issue. jump clones are a reward for doing missions to get standings, or for getting to know someone with the skills and the ship to do it with. (or learning about the forums and contacting one of the services that do it

2. the DED station in yulai is NPC owned and concord protected. so it is untouchable by player actions also Yulai is a 1.0 system, the home of Concord. as Concord is the NPC navy that chases you around if you are a pirate (-1.0 or lesser) they lock the gates on you and you die in your ship unlerss you can dock fast enough. the reason to drop your clone boxes there would be because its not player killable in station. You do not really know what it is you are talking about.

~oh and "fighting concord and doing anything other then dieing is an exploit, so there isnt any chance of even the greatest of megacorps "winning" against Concord ~ for the amount of time it would take to destroy the npc station, were that even possible.

3.so you die and its just like biomassing ..... until you buy it back with plex, so if i decided that i really wanted that character back, i could just throw cash at it . and the actions would have no real consequences. other then i get a shiny new wingman

4. your logical self is already based in a station. you are already responsible for your consciousnesses in buying medical clones. making sure you have the right station selected. and a ship at that station.
you just seem to want to make it destructible in space. while you aren't currently logged into the game. why

5. missions mining it doesnt matter. a bot is a bot is a bot. how you dress it up doesnt make much difference if the core is you just want a npc friend without the effort in an mmo to make actual friends. or pay for the second account.

[quote=Jasmin Vito
Does this make any more sense now to you ? I'm talking about the theory of actually housing your own consciousnesses in something that would need to keep hidden and safe and your over all ability to re spawn and stay alive would be in yours and only players hands not a magical fairy that exists only in the game engine design.
[/quote

The whole point of clones/jump clones is that a magical fairy transports you from where you died to where ever your medical clone is. or jump from body to another. if it makes you feel better , what you are suggesting is the same lore as the current game mechanics. just in space and destroyable.

without a good reason to be so.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.