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T2 BPO - Rehashing an old argument.
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Kalipoli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-04-04 18:48:40 UTC
Last night I started up a couple of T2 manufacturing jobs, to get my list of needed materials since i didnt have the BPC with me so i typed in the name and linked it, when it opened it was the T2 BPO not the BPC.

What i noticed was that the BPO unresearched at 10% waste is still almost twice as efficient as an invented BPC at -4 -4. Decryptors aside, This means that the invented BPC is close to 20% waste.

I guess my gripe is that CCP should bring this more into balance. Say for instance change the -4 to be 10% waste to make it close to the level of an unresearched BPO.

I believe T2 BPO's have a place in EVE, in fact it would be awesome to have one. At the same time I believe that invention needs a bit of a kick and CCP needs to stop punishing industrialist for inventing.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#2 - 2012-04-04 19:15:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
There are very few T2 BPO's out there. Although you can get a link to show info on most of the older ones. I think many of these are legacy market entries and do not necessarily indicate that T2 BPO's of that item are available.

Search contracts to find out which ones actually exist. Most T2 BPO's that were actually seeded have at least one available on contracts,if not there will at least be copies made from the BPO's, although the prices are insanely high.

Fact is there are very few actual T2 BPO's in game. If you do not want to compete with T2 BPO's then chose an item that was added to the game after the seeding of T2 BPO's stopped.

Very few players actually use T2 BPO's for production. The reason why is they are so insanely expensive that if you are looking to make money off it, the amount of profit you can make from it would take several years to equal what you could get by just selling it. The only players holding these legacy T2 BPO's are insanely rich collectors, they are not among your competition.

Let it go. invention and T2 BPC's are fine just the way they are.
Kalipoli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-04-04 19:40:43 UTC
I understand that there are not many T2 BPO's out there but that still doesn't explain a reasoning behind why Invention of a T2 BPC is so much more inefficient than an unresearched T2 BPO.

The T2 Lottery happened, I accept that i was not around for it and probably wouldnt have gotten one had i been around for it

Im not actually looking to gripe about T2 BPO's, I think that T2 BPO's have a place in this game but the price and availability is out of whack for almost anything in eve.

It isn't really an issue of competing with someone producing my T2 item via BPO vs BPC it is an issue of the invention process being just a little askew in terms of waste. I believe an invented BPC at -4 should be as efficient as the corresponding T2 BP
unresearched

The fact that even with the right decryptor the BPC is still not as efficient as the corresponding unresearched BPO. It is the fact that no matter what invention always results in a very inefficient BPC
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#4 - 2012-04-04 19:49:06 UTC
I have found many t2 modules made through invention make me a profit equal to what I invested. In other words, I'd it cost me 400k to make, I can sell in jita for 800k. I am quite content with that profit. What reason or what would increasing that profit balance out given that your suggestion would increase profit from t2 manufacturing while incurring no additional risk?
Kalipoli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-04-04 20:03:33 UTC
The risk is already there, do you calculate you're invention/datacore losses into the profitability of said item?

I have no problem making profit off the items i invent as well and have had some success with selling invented BPC's for a fair price.

It really isn't a gripe its more of a quandary as to why there is such a disproportional amount of waste in an invented BPC vs a BPO.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#6 - 2012-04-04 20:16:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
I see your point. And I certainly would no mind seeing the invention changed so that the ME/PE of the BPC used for the invention influenced the T2 BPC ME/PE.

Considering how much mats are expected to go up this summer it would help to reduce the amount of inflation we will see in T2 production.

Even if it was crazy low like 100 ME gives +1 ME on the T2 invented BPC. researching a BPO to 300 ME could be a worth while investment if it resulted in invented T2 BPC's with ME 0.
Stella SGP
#7 - 2012-04-04 20:16:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Stella SGP
Kalipoli wrote:
The risk is already there, do you calculate you're invention/datacore losses into the profitability of said item?

I have no problem making profit off the items i invent as well and have had some success with selling invented BPC's for a fair price.

It really isn't a gripe its more of a quandary as to why there is such a disproportional amount of waste in an invented BPC vs a BPO.

Invention is working as intended as you no longer pay 20 mil for a cap recharger/ cargo expander or 300 mil for a HAC pre-invention. It is an alternative to T2 production, much like how alchemy is an alternative to R64 goo. Inefficiency in both cases were put in place not by accident.

Purpose of invention was to break up T2 cartels, nothing else. You can blame the other inventors who can't do math for the slim profits. Making invented BPCs more efficient will do nothing except further decreasing the price of T2 items, only benefitting those PVPers who looks down on industrialist.

Edit - People in general will never stop asking for more, why stop at 10% waste on invented BPC? Next thing ou know people will be asking for positive ME/PE.
Kalipoli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-04-04 20:40:57 UTC
Stella. good point.

The change in efficiency would not equate to anything at all other than a decrease in the items across the board but no improvement profit wise.

I guess that answered my question, it is by design and working as intended not to compete with T2 BPO's but instead to keep the market viable.

"Edit - People in general will never stop asking for more, why stop at 10% waste on invented BPC? Next thing ou know people will be asking for positive ME/PE." - If you give a mouse a cookie.

thank you for the good replies.
Kalipoli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-04-04 21:06:33 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
I see your point. And I certainly would no mind seeing the invention changed so that the ME/PE of the BPC used for the invention influenced the T2 BPC ME/PE.

Considering how much mats are expected to go up this summer it would help to reduce the amount of inflation we will see in T2 production.

Even if it was crazy low like 100 ME gives +1 ME on the T2 invented BPC. researching a BPO to 300 ME could be a worth while investment if it resulted in invented T2 BPC's with ME 0.


I also like that idea, it would help justify over researching BPO's.
Kenshin Tzestu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-04-04 22:12:18 UTC
Though there might be a limited number of T2 BPOs out there, the production from them can make up a significant proportion of the total. See the recent tweets from CCP.
Del DelVechio
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
#11 - 2012-04-04 22:22:06 UTC
Kenshin Tzestu wrote:
Though there might be a limited number of T2 BPOs out there, the production from them can make up a significant proportion of the total. See the recent tweets from CCP.


This ^^.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#12 - 2012-04-05 00:09:00 UTC
On some things, it's worth inventing. Which means for those, the BPO isn't killing invention's profits.

On others, it's not.


As with all things, just run the numbers.

If it's low volume, and there's a BPO, then it's probably not worth invention. As with Command ships.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Breaker77
Reclamation Industries
#13 - 2012-04-05 00:31:42 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

Fact is there are very few actual T2 BPO's in game. If you do not want to compete with T2 BPO's then chose an item that was added to the game after the seeding of T2 BPO's stopped.



You are aware that items without a T2 BPO are less profitable than items with a T2 BPO right?

Do the math on a cap recharger II compared to a salvager II. You will make more profit per item on the cap recharger that HAS A T2 BPO than you will with a salvager II.

Sadly, ships are the exception to this rule.
Atossa Exior
Midnight Conclave
#14 - 2012-04-05 00:33:57 UTC
The things higher ME would affect would be minerals. The most expensive things in a T2 item are the moon goo components and the PI materals.

Using a T2 heatsink with ME -4:

Nanoelectrical Microprocessor: 5

R.A.M. Electronics: 1 @ 15%

Isogen: 2
Megacyte: 2
Mexallon: 150
Morphite: 3
Tritanium: 213
Zydrine: 2

Mechanical Parts: 5
Minature Electronics: 2

T1 heatsink: 1

Going to ME 0:

Nanoelectrical Microprocessor: 5

R.A.M. Electronics: 1 @ 15%

Isogen: 1
Megacyte: 1
Mexallon: 110
Morphite: 2
Tritanium: 156
Zydrine: 1

Mechanical Parts: 5
Minature Electronics: 2

T1 heatsink: 1

You really don't see a major change between ME -4 and Me 0 for the stuff that matters.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#15 - 2012-04-05 00:51:06 UTC
Atossa Exior wrote:
The things higher ME would affect would be minerals. The most expensive things in a T2 item are the moon goo components and the PI materals.


http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/2364/-4/5/0/5

That's the T2 Heatsink's details. As Atossa says, the difference (at current jita prices. These figures and others in this post are subject to change) is around 16,232.87 ISK between perfect (ME 28) and ME -4

Someone with a perfect BPO could sell at just over 363,520 and make a profit. As is, they sell at around 825,000. Which gives around 460,000 to absorb the invention cost, and give a profit.

Invention cost, with low/moderate skills will be around ((170k x2 + 230k x2) /0.43) /10, or 344k per unit. Higher skills can make a big difference to this number. A Meta module might also make a positive difference. depending on how much you could get it for.


So, for a heatsink II, the profit margin is around 12.5% (depending on how much you charge per blueprint, invention time, and so on.)
Other modules can be worth more. And you can also sell them away from Jita, which gives a bigger trade profit.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Breaker77
Reclamation Industries
#16 - 2012-04-05 00:52:40 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
And you can also sell them away from Jita, which gives a bigger trade profit.



Shhh!! Don't give away too many secrets
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#17 - 2012-04-05 01:38:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
There are very few T2 BPO's out there.


WTF!?!? Since when??

I know ppl who have hundreds... ?!?

Look the T2 BPO's are an obvious flaw in the system. CCP have put it in the "too hard" basket for a longass time. One wonders if they will ever remove it from there.

I find it ironic that the same company that said shuttles needed to stop being sold by NPC's because it created an illusory tritanium price cannot see the obvious inbalance here.

The increase in pos fuel prices via PI over the past year or two have not helped in the slightest.

I think the only reason CCP haven't removed them from the game is that so many have invested billions BUYING the bpo's after the lottery was taken out of the game. If it was such a great mechanic they would've kept the lottery - simple as that.

I agree it wouldn't be fair for people to lose billions on the BPO's but at the same time it's not fair for the other 90% of indy people that want to login to their favourite game and build things.

.
The Breadmaster
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-04-05 01:43:16 UTC
Atossa Exior wrote:
The things higher ME would affect would be minerals. The most expensive things in a T2 item are the moon goo components and the PI materals.

Using a T2 heatsink with ME -4:

Nanoelectrical Microprocessor: 5

R.A.M. Electronics: 1 @ 15%

Isogen: 2
Megacyte: 2
Mexallon: 150
Morphite: 3
Tritanium: 213
Zydrine: 2

Mechanical Parts: 5
Minature Electronics: 2

T1 heatsink: 1

Going to ME 0:

Nanoelectrical Microprocessor: 5

R.A.M. Electronics: 1 @ 15%

Isogen: 1
Megacyte: 1
Mexallon: 110
Morphite: 2
Tritanium: 156
Zydrine: 1

Mechanical Parts: 5
Minature Electronics: 2

T1 heatsink: 1

You really don't see a major change between ME -4 and Me 0 for the stuff that matters.


More specifically, ME level has no effect on so-called "extra materials". Some tech 2 BPO are
far more valuable for this very reason.

Tech 2 BPO's do account for ruined margins on ship sales, except during times of extreme demand.
However, all my years of data do not extend beyond Jita. But then is the profit manufacturing or
arbitrage?

Furthermore, there was a decent case made against T2 mining crystal BPO's. But I don't recall
the specifics.. Nor can I be bothered to eve search it at the moment (appeared in an Akita thread).

But the arguments are not relevant. Ccp is already on record saying they won't remove them from
Eve.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#19 - 2012-04-05 02:49:13 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
I see your point. And I certainly would no mind seeing the invention changed so that the ME/PE of the BPC used for the invention influenced the T2 BPC ME/PE.

Considering how much mats are expected to go up this summer it would help to reduce the amount of inflation we will see in T2 production.

Even if it was crazy low like 100 ME gives +1 ME on the T2 invented BPC. researching a BPO to 300 ME could be a worth while investment if it resulted in invented T2 BPC's with ME 0.


Or:

T2 BPC ME = -5 + Sqrt(T1 BPC ME) + decryptor

There's a few T2 items where it would make a major market shift, other invented items it wouldn't matter much at all (since ME doesn't affect "extra" items).
Haulie Berry
#20 - 2012-04-05 15:57:25 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
There are very few T2 BPO's out there.



I agree it wouldn't be fair for people to lose billions on the BPO's but at the same time it's not fair for the other 90% of indy people that want to login to their favourite game and build things.


The other 90% of indy people can still login to their favorite game and build things, though. Nothing is stopping them from doing that.

The problem is that about 90% of those people are imbeciles who want to build some arbitrary item because they think it would be cool to build *that* item, instead of simply building what is profitable.

If you don't want T2 BPOs in the game, deal with it yourself. Buy them and destroy them. Oh? What's that? You're unwilling to simply delete billions of your own asset value? So, basically, you're cool with the arbitrary deletion of billions in asset value, as long as it's not yours, right? That about sum it up?
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