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New dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, one ship at a time

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Jehan Markow
Wu Si Yuan Luojishan
#1901 - 2012-04-02 15:57:23 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
To remind it again, there are other options to consider, but no matter which one which choose, you won't lose anything out of the skill reimbursement plan.


Considering the past changes to skills, it is difficult to believe that the players won't lose something. There is a lot of distrust out here. But considering the way you lay out some options, I do have faith it will be done right this time. But the reality of an extra 8.2M skillpoints doesn't seem realistic, as much as it would be fair. Beyond that, I have two issues.

First and foremost, skills represent the most valuable investment of time within EVE Online. All those people who are pushing for skill changes - the CSMs, the GMs, the dozens of players griping on a daily basis - need to respect our investments and not toy around with it. I just finished training one of my alts for all command ships and did a neural remap for Int/Mem. If I can't fly those command ships anymore, that would not be cool, and others would be affected.

Secondly, one of the greatest features of our current system of one battlecruisers skill for all races is that new players can try out different races' ships with a simple cross-training. It's only one extra racial skill, and a whole new world opens up. It is something I enjoyed as a new player and something that helps us older players when we're helping out the new guys. Get em into a Drake or a Hurricane and learn how much fun this game can be. Now you're talking about dragging out that training process for some fuzzy goal of "overhaul". Is there a clear problem - besides whining - that this solution is intended to fix? Maybe you want to charge another 3 months of subscriptions for players like me to get back to where we were before the change?

If you really want to add more of something, we'd love to see some more destroyer hulls, maybe some more frigate hulls, maybe another cruiser. It would be nice to have some more smaller, cheaper options, or even some variability from race to race, like with the industrial class.

In any event, your player base is wary but willing to see how this one goes. We are hoping for the best....
-JM
Inovy Dacella
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#1902 - 2012-04-02 19:01:41 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
The skill requirement changes for destroyers and battlecruisers is very tricky to tackle indeed. We fully acknowledge having to re-train for ships you can already fly is not appealing at all.

As said in the blog, nothing is set in stone yet, we are considering various reimbursement options as this is still quite a high level change.



it not just not appealing its crazy.

pre patch i can fly all cs's and all dic's. post patch im ******. i either pick to fly a claymore or damnation or a vulture (eos is **** anyhow) and then im screwed for the next 80 odd days retraining for ships i could already fly.

you either reduce the ranks of the destroyer and bc skills so reimbursed skill points from the old cover all 4 races, or you just give people all 4 races.




We'll find a suitable reimbursement that makes everyone happy. I'm not terribly fussed about giving away a little extra if it moves we move the ship progression system into a better place.


Please consider the fact that anything you give away extra will only benefit currently trained players. But for new players it only makes it harder to catch up on the skill tree. Unless you decrease training time across the board the skill gap between new and vet players will increase.
Preston Vane
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1903 - 2012-04-02 21:25:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Preston Vane
Is there an estimate on which date the proposed skilltree changes will be?

From what i read so far i got two different, possible dates: May 22nd and April 24th. The first date is release of Inferno and the second should be a pre-Inferno content patch. Does anyone have information on which one of the two (or even later within the expansion) this changes will happen? Preferably with proof.

If this question is already answered within this thread, i'm sorry that i didn't read all 90+ pages. (even thought there was something on this matter two pages ago)
Snatch Pinion
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1904 - 2012-04-02 22:03:28 UTC
My first question is the same as above, which update date will it take effect? May 22 or April 24?

If it is April, that means I'll be 1 day short of reaching Battlecruiser 5, which leads me to my next question:

If training for BC5, and these changes occur when it happens, what happens to the partially trained skill/skills? Will the skillpoints for BC5 be reimbursed, or will all 4 racial battlecruiser skills be trained up unto the point in which BC5 was trained to?
Mari Sinn
Balanced Industries
#1905 - 2012-04-03 00:14:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Mari Sinn
Yes, come Inferno I hope I receive 8,192,000 SP to redistribute into the four racial destroyer & four racial battle cruiser skills.

Because I can currently fly all destroyers & battle cruisers with:

All racial frigates @ 4 or better
Destroyers @ 5 with 512,000 SP
All racial cruisers @ 4 or better
Battle cruiser @ 5 with 1,536,000 SP
All four racial destroyers @ 5 = 512,000 X 4 = 2,048,000 SP
All four racial battle cruisers @ 5 = 1,536,000 X 4 = 6,114,000 SP
2,048,000 + 6,144,000 = 8,192,000 SP

Dangit, my alt is way behind.
None ofthe Above
#1906 - 2012-04-03 00:38:09 UTC
non judgement wrote:
None ofthe Above wrote:
non judgement wrote:

...
Except I think the main reason for the battlecruiser skill split into racial is to stop people getting 8-12 ships trained all at once by only training the one BC skill. They only need cruiser to be at lvl 3, which isn't much training at all. There isn't another ship class skill that affects so many ships at once. The Recon and Heavy Assault skills are similar to this, but at least they require the racial cruiser skill to be at 5.
...


Realistically, very few people train more than one racial cruiser skill before training up BC 1. I find this argument to have very little weight.

it's pointless talking about training BC to level 1. What was I really talking about?

hint: it has nothing to do with when someone trains BC level 1.
It's a bit like saying no one trains frigate to level 3 for each race before they put destroyer on the queue.


Agreed the Destroyer is similar, but there is only one per race.

So, good question, what were you really talking about when you said "getting 8-12 ships trained all at once"?

I'll grant that you are probably talking about BC1-3, after cross-training. Or maybe talking about getting the 3 BCs at once after cross-training to another race's Cruiser skill to 4 (which is the highest impact scenario).

This 8-12 hulls unlocked at once is pure hyperbole. Even 4 at once would be a very rare occurrence.

So I am still of the opinion that this argument has very little validity.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
None ofthe Above
#1907 - 2012-04-03 00:45:16 UTC
Sarah Schneider wrote:
Am i missing some things here? as far as i know it, CCP didn't say they 'want' to do these changes, they said they need to do these changes, which are two different things, the most obvious part is, they are not seeking our approval or suggestions, they are informing us that they will do these changes no matter what. CCP knows these are drastic changes and will affect a lot of people and there would be consequences, pros and cons, they realized that, but want to go through with it anyway, that means that this is important not just from the players perspective, but from their side as well.

Is the current system broken? from the players perspective, probably not, it works fine the way it is and it has been that way for quite some time. But is it not broken? from the developer perspective? i don't know and i'm also pretty sure most of the players doesn't either. To me, the changes are logical, it streamlines and group the skills in somewhat 'cleaner' than it is now, if that means that it helps ccp to fix and/or improve the ship line later on, i'm all for it.



They've gone back and forth on the "need to" "will" and "would like to" on these changes.

Frankly the arguments for the Racial Destroyers and Cruisers aren't logically consistent to me. I've hear the racial cruisers will allow them to rebalance the ships and provide these ship roles, but there is no reasons that I can see that it will actually give them that ability. I think it's someone trying to fix something that has bugged them since its not an instantly intuitive part of EVE and they are trying hard to justify it. It doesn't make sense to me. It harms newer players (by increasing the skill gap), harms veteran players (by increasing the clone cost while giving them no added benefits aside from the aforementioned skillgap) and is going to take a fairly major effort by devs that could be applied elsewhere.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1908 - 2012-04-03 01:57:27 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:
non judgement wrote:
None ofthe Above wrote:
non judgement wrote:

...
Except I think the main reason for the battlecruiser skill split into racial is to stop people getting 8-12 ships trained all at once by only training the one BC skill. They only need cruiser to be at lvl 3, which isn't much training at all. There isn't another ship class skill that affects so many ships at once. The Recon and Heavy Assault skills are similar to this, but at least they require the racial cruiser skill to be at 5.
...


Realistically, very few people train more than one racial cruiser skill before training up BC 1. I find this argument to have very little weight.

it's pointless talking about training BC to level 1. What was I really talking about?

hint: it has nothing to do with when someone trains BC level 1.
It's a bit like saying no one trains frigate to level 3 for each race before they put destroyer on the queue.


Agreed the Destroyer is similar, but there is only one per race.

So, good question, what were you really talking about when you said "getting 8-12 ships trained all at once"?

I'll grant that you are probably talking about BC1-3, after cross-training. Or maybe talking about getting the 3 BCs at once after cross-training to another race's Cruiser skill to 4 (which is the highest impact scenario).

This 8-12 hulls unlocked at once is pure hyperbole. Even 4 at once would be a very rare occurrence.

So I am still of the opinion that this argument has very little validity.

Regardless of the order they are unlocked all 12 of the tech 1 BC's still derive their bonuses from the same skill. As it is now training BC V and cruiser III for one race only yield max bonuses to 3 ships, but training another race to cruiser III on the same character then gives 3 more ships with max skills.
Allen Ramses
Zombicidal Mania
#1909 - 2012-04-03 03:49:12 UTC
I'll probably get flamed to death for this, but would it not be better for dessies/BCs to require racial frig/cruiser IV, and make the dessie/BC ships give 3% bonus per lvl instead of 5% per lvl? At the same time, 3 non-high slots can be removed from battlecruisers, making them much more like cruisers. Dessies have the slot layout similar to a frigate, why doesn't a BC have a slot layout similar to a cruiser?

I just pulled this concept out of my ass, but I know it's still better than what CCP have in mind.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1910 - 2012-04-03 04:46:11 UTC
Jehan Markow wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
To remind it again, there are other options to consider, but no matter which one which choose, you won't lose anything out of the skill reimbursement plan.


Considering the past changes to skills, it is difficult to believe that the players won't lose something. There is a lot of distrust out here. But considering the way you lay out some options, I do have faith it will be done right this time. But the reality of an extra 8.2M skillpoints doesn't seem realistic, as much as it would be fair. Beyond that, I have two issues.

First and foremost, skills represent the most valuable investment of time within EVE Online. All those people who are pushing for skill changes - the CSMs, the GMs, the dozens of players griping on a daily basis - need to respect our investments and not toy around with it. I just finished training one of my alts for all command ships and did a neural remap for Int/Mem. If I can't fly those command ships anymore, that would not be cool, and others would be affected.

Secondly, one of the greatest features of our current system of one battlecruisers skill for all races is that new players can try out different races' ships with a simple cross-training. It's only one extra racial skill, and a whole new world opens up. It is something I enjoyed as a new player and something that helps us older players when we're helping out the new guys. Get em into a Drake or a Hurricane and learn how much fun this game can be. Now you're talking about dragging out that training process for some fuzzy goal of "overhaul". Is there a clear problem - besides whining - that this solution is intended to fix? Maybe you want to charge another 3 months of subscriptions for players like me to get back to where we were before the change?

If you really want to add more of something, we'd love to see some more destroyer hulls, maybe some more frigate hulls, maybe another cruiser. It would be nice to have some more smaller, cheaper options, or even some variability from race to race, like with the industrial class.

In any event, your player base is wary but willing to see how this one goes. We are hoping for the best....
-JM



I agree with you 100%, you have pretty well hit it on the head. Stuffing around for the sake of giving themselves a reason to get paid frankly.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1911 - 2012-04-03 05:28:28 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:
They've gone back and forth on the "need to" "will" and "would like to" on these changes.

Hmm, interesting, mind pointing me out on where these switches of stance occurred?

None ofthe Above wrote:
Frankly the arguments for the Racial Destroyers and Cruisers aren't logically consistent to me. I've hear the racial cruisers will allow them to rebalance the ships and provide these ship roles, but there is no reasons that I can see that it will actually give them that ability..

What i see, what you see, what other people sees, what new player sees and what veteran players see can be 20 different things. The point is, if i'm not really sure what's the real reason behind something or what kind of justification a change has to be done, the most likely case is that i probably don't have enough information related to the issue, same as you, i also see this only from my point of view and i'm pretty sure a lot of people also agree that this might be a good change. The idea and reasoning behind the changes are valid imo, whether ccp will mess this up or not when the time comes is a whole different thing.

None ofthe Above wrote:
I think it's someone trying to fix something that has bugged them since its not an instantly intuitive part of EVE and they are trying hard to justify it. It doesn't make sense to me. It harms newer players (by increasing the skill gap), harms veteran players (by increasing the clone cost while giving them no added benefits aside from the aforementioned skillgap) and is going to take a fairly major effort by devs that could be applied elsewhere.

Harming new players by increasing the skill gap and giving veteran players no added benefits are contradictive in my opinion, if say, i'm trained in BC5 and got 4 free racial BC skills but i don't need the other 3 aside from minmatar, wouldn't it be the same for newer players to train for the same BC class as i'm flying? as they only need to train minmatar battlecruiser to 5 and with the new skill tree, it's even easier for new players later on to spec to a certain role. I do agree with the increased clone cost, although it probably won't matter much (cost-wise) for older players, it's still would be an unnecessary addition to maintenance cost.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Blaze D'fire
Grizzly Mountain 0perations
#1912 - 2012-04-03 06:23:50 UTC
Alright well i spent about 4 hours reading the thread and i am thuroughly confused at this point.
I have a couple concerns that everyone has already voiced 11,634 times so i'll say it once more.


I trained all factions ship skills, but i didnt have to for BCS's i can fly any T1 frigate, destroyer, cruiser, BCS will i still be able to?

BCS are not mainstream they are throw away ships for the most part, the T2 cruisers are usually significantly better then a BCS
The BCS's are a great way to introduce new players into other factions ships and weapon platforms, which in turn may cause a player to cross train into other faction ships and weapons to use them on frigs, cruisers, BS's, that what happened to me.
I was all caldari till i flew an Amarr BCS and decided i was gonna train Amarr ships and lasers.

This seems more like a fix for individuals who have been complaining about other issues that are indirectly related to this.

More specific to me i have 5 accounts, guess how many i'll have if i am faced with 3-6 months of training added to my current plans.
If we get to the root of the issue let the whining players buy a month's worth of SP's for 1 plex


Seriously its the only reason 4 of my accounts exist, i train them till they are functional which typically is nearly a year worth of training to get offense/defense/core fitting/ewar to 4's accross the board then i actually play them


People can flame war me all they want i dont surf the forums except when someone tells me theres a huge change coming, but the game is a PAY to WIN, if you want the best equipement you have to buy tons of plexes, so why not just buy SP's?

That way the Whiners can create an account drop $500 down and fly a capital



Without the sarcasm i would say buying SP's is the ony way you will ever have balance, because a player with 10mil SP will loose 99% of the time to the guy with 120mil SPs unless he's AFK in lowsec/nulsec.

I remember when i started playing 2 years ago and it took me forever to kill a tutorial rat
Then i went back to get some standing and i was alpha'ing every tutorial rat without even grouping my weapons
It takes time to be effective in this game, thats how CCP makes their money, apparently the economic tumoils are affecting CCP to the point they need to extend all of our training times by a few extra months so they can make an extra $50-$100 per account

Pirate faction Ships are the best example of insentivizing Cross faction training. I think CCP did a great job with them

Put more Pirate faction ship in then people will want to cross train instead of them having to train just to fly what they already can fly

Please dont turn this game into WOW its why i started playing EVE because WOW was so babyfied that i stoped playing after 6 years.
None ofthe Above
#1913 - 2012-04-03 06:57:21 UTC
Sarah Schneider wrote:
None ofthe Above wrote:
They've gone back and forth on the "need to" "will" and "would like to" on these changes.

Hmm, interesting, mind pointing me out on where these switches of stance occurred?


I seem to recall it most strikingly in the beginning of the fanfest session on the subject with CCP Ytterbium. In the DevBlog the OP links to it starts out with "glimpse of things to come" and then changes to "we want to". I get the impression of the reality being "this is what we are going to do.... oh right I am supposed to be giving you guys the impression you have a say in the matter." Maybe that's just my premature bitter vet showing.

Sarah Schneider wrote:
The idea and reasoning behind the changes are valid imo, whether ccp will mess this up or not when the time comes is a whole different thing.


While true, I would feel a whole lot more comfortable with this all if I understood and agreed with the basic philosophy they are using to drive the process.

Its true that it doesn't extend training time for new players until they start cross-training. Not really seeing how this contradicts my position though.

You don't understand how anything could harm both new and old players? I didn't go in to the converses, such as the older players not having to worry about the youngins getting those nice pirate hulls for quite so long. But still you should be aware that some changes harm all players, but not necessarily in the same ways.

(Note: I had to cut this down since the forums don't allow enough quotes for me to address the points directly. Grrrr)

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
#1914 - 2012-04-03 17:36:44 UTC
Ok, I am new to this game but not to the MMO genre.

So basically, if I train all racial Frigate skills to IV, all racial Cruiser skills to III, Battlecruisers and Destroyers to V it should pay off in the near future. I hope so because this is going to postone the start of Raven L4 missioning by many weeks in my case. To be ready for May 22th (if this change goes live that day) I need to start now Smile
Rimase
#1915 - 2012-04-03 17:51:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Rimase
(SUGGESTION)

One slight change: 'Bombardment' to 'Bombard' (2 syllables).

'Why?'
Don't know. Obsessive-compulsive, maybe, or pedantic.
Com-bat (2)
At-tack (2)
Sup-port (2)
Bom-bard (2)

'Ok?'
Well, I dunno...


'Anything else, noob?'
Well... Yes. P

DESTRUCTION PARADE: Combat, Attack, Bombard, Support, newCovert.
HARVEST PARADE: Industrial, newCovert.
CRAFT PARADE: Industrial.

What's going on here? Destruction still taking the lead? Nothing new yet?

Looking to join Caldari Faction Warfare corporation!
Rimase
#1916 - 2012-04-03 18:19:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Rimase
Question @ Fanfest Keynote
Players who like deviate setups on Specialised ships. Won't happen imo Big smile.

Looking to join Caldari Faction Warfare corporation!
Vanessa Vansen
Vandeo
#1917 - 2012-04-03 19:18:27 UTC
So, one thing to keep in mind ...

With all the ship lines ... what's going to happen when you introduce them?

e.g. consider a maxed out (in other words "perfect")hulk pilot ... (not taking leadership bonus into account)
What's going to happen when you introduce ship lines?

Will that pilot be still be "perfect" or will there be new skills to train to be "perfect" again?

At the moment I would say that the idea behind ship lines is good BUT you'll have to keep in mind that people will be very sad/angry when they are not "perfect" in their way anymore.

Hence,
* you'll be able to fly the same ships after the "change" as you are before the change
and
* you'll be able to fly those ships after the "change" as before the change

I.e. a perfect hulk pilot will remain a perfect hulk pilot, and accordingly for "combat" ships and so on

And a 2nd input ...
T3 and generalization ... once you let us change sub-systems at a POS or a ship main bay of a orca/rorqual/carrier that may be true, until then it does only hold for systems with stations/outposts
Allen Ramses
Zombicidal Mania
#1918 - 2012-04-03 19:24:05 UTC
I think the people who are talking about skills in and of themselves are missing the point.

The way it is now, destroyers are not superior to frigates, they are just different. Their lack of speed and tanking ability make them prime targets for cruisers and roaming frigate gangs. They lack the maneuverability to bug out of a fight, and their hulls would not survive a head on attack. Treating them as an evolutionary superior class would not make very much sense. Their role is to pick off frigates from a distance, not front line combat.

The way skills are being proposed to change is like putting a piece of tape on a leaky pipe. The drip may be gone, but another problem will arrive elsewhere. This is a delicate issue which needs to be carefully dealt with. And due to the present state of BCs, the situation needs to be handled with extreme care. Declaring destroyers and BCs evolutionary racial skills and then saying "voila!" is not the way to go

CCP, please tell us if you are still watching this thread! The way you handle this mess is of utmost priority.
Sephiroth CloneIIV
Brothers of Tyr
Goonswarm Federation
#1919 - 2012-04-04 05:30:36 UTC
Teircide is a good thing, I don't see changing skill progression as bad but huge amounts of raging about skill changing is creating a ruckus about any amount of change, the one I want.

So... maybe keep it separate, one improvement/change not dependent on the other. Roll out teircide asap, but hold back on any major changes to skill tree until a solution is found that is agree able without so much rage.
Kayla Khan
Seppala Herbal Remedies
#1920 - 2012-04-04 05:54:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Kayla Khan
Soooooooo if i have a toon that i had to train for amarr and caldari freighters can I have the sp i needed for industrial 5 back please? also do i now need freighter 5 for jump freighter?

additionally i have a capital toon that cross trained from amarr caps to gallente caps can i have the battleship 5 sps reimbursed aswell?

and just to clarify if i have battlecruiser 5 and all racial cruisers to 3? is that sufficent to recive these racial battleship 5's ?

you had better make a second blog confiming and denying people fears cause this thread is difficult to navigate and your communication with the public is vital to this very difficult change working properly while causing the least bit of unrest

please layout the skill requirements to recive this all race level 5

battlecruiser 5 cruiser 3 (or 4?)

Destroyer 5, Frigate 5 (shouldn't this be 4? following your statements regarding command ship skill trees)

Also IMO make this simple if you have BC 3 you get all race BC3 reguardless of whether you can fly the ship or not. same thing for destroyers destroyers 4 gets you all race destroyer 4 reguardless of any other skills

PLEASE READ THIS