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New Dev Blog: Alliance Panel at Fanfest 2012: The Conclusion

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Azran Zala
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1261 - 2012-04-01 20:56:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Azran Zala
DeMichael Crimson wrote:

you have definitely twisted everything around, turned it inside out and upside down


Just like everyone on the opposite camp of the argument.

DeMichael Crimson wrote:

.... Most of the world's population views it as morally and sociably unacceptable which could also include legal ramifications for all parties involved....


Hmm, I think that statement is a bit of an assumption, Im not even sure if the majority of eve really care, lest the whole of China. But I understand what you mean. Perception is what counts, not the truth.

As for legal implications, I doubt anything could ever come of it, even if it occurred in a country with such laws as the 'victim' is an anonymous disposible alias, thus the real person behind it can easily avoid persecution.
Alex (the Mittani) unfortuantly doesn't have that luxury, so perhaps he may end up fileing a few lawsuites of his own (and win) should he recieve any unscrupulous phone calls.

Again I can't stress this enough, unless Mittani gave out a real persons identity, this is not a real life issue, and doesn't fall under the same laws. All characters and ingame content whether player or ccp generated is owned by ccp. And when accepting the TOS/EULA you agree that u cannot hold ccp (or other players) accountable for your experiance within the game.
CCP have not said its a real life issue either, the course of action/punishment they are handing out is due to a supposed breach of the TOS/EULA, the player harrassment clause, which is placed there because understandibly CCP dont want players to unsub their accounts because they are being harrassed -ingame-.

Thus, I say it again. With the evidence presented I do not find that Mittani did anything immoral
(beyond acting like a drunk teenager, how many times can one say f*** on a live stream before it becomes inappropriate?), or illigal, And I certaintly don't believe his intention went beyond amusing his audiance.
My argument however is, did he infact break the TOS/EULA. CCP believe he did. I only wish to discuss to what extent.
Of course they will never because its against their policy to discuss it.

So I guess its pointless really. I wonder if anything interesting is being posted in C&P...

Edit: oh what do you know, there is : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=90279
racist remarks inciting violence against black people. riverini should be ashamed What? Aprils fool joke? Of course.
But its on evenews24 so it must be true (*insert sarcasm here*)
http://www.evenews24.com/2012/04/01/en24-editor-receives-a-10-day-ban-after-petitioned-racist-insults-in-local/
Chicken Pizza
One-man Armada
#1262 - 2012-04-02 04:09:24 UTC
Brae Haen wrote:
Ive got a question which was not covered by the post. This might sound a little out there but wouldn't a player who is threatening to committ suicide due to in game actions also be considered a violation of the EULA/TOS? It is a threat, it is harassment and a case could be made that it is cyberbullying.

I'm not trolling, or trying to attack the offended player. I'm not a mindless Goon trying to start more drama. But I am interested on what CCP's stance on this is.


He didn't threaten to kill himself at all. He didn't even state any outright intention to do so. If you watched the video, I'm afraid you have completely misinterpreted the victim's wording.
Chicken Pizza
One-man Armada
#1263 - 2012-04-02 04:43:27 UTC
Dregol wrote:
CCP Xhagen wrote:

Words


So you're acknowledging that it's a CCP sanctioned event. Fine

You're serving alcohol/allowing the consumption of alcohol/permitting players to be inebriated when they show up. And this somehow excludes you from culpability for what happened at the event?


If I gave, say, a deranged person a gun, ammunition and a clip, and bad things happened (to themselves, or perhaps others), would I not be in someway responsible for bad things happening?

Putting alcohol + crowds + socially awkward neckbeards in a room together seems like a formula for great success. It's awfully convenient for CCP to ban Mittens, kick him off the CSM, and brand themselves as the defenders of the innocent. EVE is a harsh place. Always has been. Did Mittens cross a line? Yes. But to pretend you had no role in allowing it to happen is a huge :headinsand: moment. Terrible decision is still terrible CCP, and washing your hands of any liability is a sham. Next year's FF is going to be zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz because of shortsighted decisions.

Oh well, angry swarm, best swarm. Enjoy Jita while you can.


Incorrect! The deranged person has mental issues, and cannot be held fully responsible for his actions. Therefore, yes, you are responsible for giving an insane man a gun and ammunition.

Mittani is, I'm assuming, a mentally healthy individual with a crappy personality. If it is legal for him to drink alcohol, then he is solely responsible for his actions after imbibing it.

CCP, however, IS responsible for keeping their image as free of tarnish as possible. If you had any business sense, you would realize this.

Jita isn't the only trade hub in EvE. No one cares what you do there. Make sure you insure all of your suicide ships so that you can at least utilize one of the few isk drains in the game while you're at it.

Side note: Mittani doesn't even look like he is manly enough to grow a neckbeard.
Alyssa Cristole
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1264 - 2012-04-02 04:48:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Alyssa Cristole
I wanted to point out a few things from CCP's EULA/TOS. My opinion is the guy should have been permaban but is getting off easy because of his relationship with CCP. The reaction on CCP's part has been a joke. Encouraging other players to go repeatedly pod kill someone is griefing. Period. It's also harassing, harmful, and hateful. There is not even a fine line here and this has nothing to do with PVP/hardcore gaming.


That statement aside, it's a joke he was even given a 30 day ban because CCP regularly ignores enforcing the EULA/TOS. If I were him I would claim discrimination as CCP does not enforce the rules and therefor he is being made an example due to the fact the media caught wind of what happened.


Quote:
http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/banning.as

6. SCAMMIN

Severe offenses may result in an immediate ban without warning; however, warnings may be given for first time offenses, followed by account suspensions of varying degree and ultimately a permanent ban if a player

b. Intentionally creates missions that cannot be completed through normal game mechanics or abilities.



Lies. There are plenty of player made courier missions that end at POS's that 99.9% of Eve players can't access. Furthermore, there are also plenty of player made courier missions that involve cargo way too big for any Eve ship to carry. Both are violations of this rule, yet are done on a daily basis. No enforcement.



Quote:
An immediate permanent ban of an account may result if a player

a. Organizes or participates in a corporation or group that is based on or advocates... other hate-mongering philosophies.



There is plenty of hate going on in Eve. Hate against CareBears aside, how many times have you seen Eve forum posts talking about "Chinese" ISK farmers? There are several campaigns a year into HighSec space just to grief people isk farming. There is plenty of flaming on the forums where players actively try and get other players to quit the game. These go on ignored by moderators.



Quote:
Severe offenses may result in an immediate ban without warning; however, warnings may be given for first time offenses, followed by account suspensions of varying degree and ultimately a permanent ban if a player

g. Engages in griefplay tactics which may include, but are not limited to, market/courier exploits.



Already talked about, but since CCP has stated it on more then one webpage [EULA/TOS/Banning] its very ironic they ignore it in game.



Quote:
http://support.eveonline.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=33

A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account

This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two (or more) players, such as corporation wars. The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play per the above definition

An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items in front of a station in a starter system and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in starter tutorial complexes is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated.



Can Bating is very much going on in Eve and is being ignored by CCP. Whether you agree with the tactic or not there is no way you can argue CCP is actually enforcing no can bating rules. This goes for a lot of the rules posted above. How can you go after one player when you have thousands breaking the rules every day which you choose to ignore?



It just goes to show this whole thing is a joke, including CCP's response to the matter which has been nothing more then a publicity stunt. Personally I feel that if this never came into the public eye then there would have been no response by CCP; its obvious they could really care less. While this guy screwed up, was completely inappropriate, is obviously a less then just human being, is not sincere with his apology, and should have never been CSM; I would argue he is being treated unfairly because CCP itself ignores its own rules.


The things that make this game and CCP as a gaming company great, unfortunately also lead to the complete opposite. I hope one day they will realize that sometimes they actually have to act like a game company and not just a bunch of friends sitting in the basement with a DM's guide and a few 20 sided dice.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1265 - 2012-04-02 05:53:56 UTC
Kosh Seere wrote:

Your math is awesome... especially where you compare the US population to the EVE pop. Go skill yourself.


I liked the part where he suggested that everyone who didn't vote Mittani was specifically voting against him. It's pretty much admitting all the other candidates aren't actually worth voting for on their own merits.

Does he realise the difference between a two-party system and the CSM elections? Does he know that people don't vote the President in directly?
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1266 - 2012-04-02 06:13:33 UTC
Azran Zala wrote:
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:


The Mittani encouraged others to go after someone[i] in order to drive them to suicide


No he didn't, many may have interpreted it that way.


And my story was in response that if u can ban one person for calling on a group of others to target a single individule,
then that would mean what we did was wrong and against the EULA aswell.

Which is actually where my interest lies in this topic.
I dont care about morals or suicide, mittani, goons, or the CSM. I only care about how the rules of the game are being interpreted and how it may affect me.


Review the video again. You must have missed the part where Mittens solicited audience members to join and "help" make the guy commit suicide. It was pretty clear. There was no interpretation of his wording. He SOLICITED help specifically for the purposes of driving the guy to suicide. Whether he meant it or not is irrelevant. It's one of those things like yelling "FIRE" in a public space when there is no fire. People can get hurt, so therefore you're held accountable.

A better example is getting on the radio or a television broadcast and soliciting people to rise up to destroy public/private property and to commit bodily harm to others. Inciting people to violence is against the law in most countries whether or not damaging or injurious actions have taken place.


Don't ban me, bro!
Ai Shun
#1267 - 2012-04-02 07:21:26 UTC
Is this an April fools joke or is this for real?
Virgil Travis
Non Constructive Self Management
#1268 - 2012-04-02 07:43:34 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:
Is this an April fools joke or is this for real?


We are very interested to know. A response to this would be appreciated.

Unified Church of the Unobligated - madness in the method Mamma didn't raise no victims.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#1269 - 2012-04-02 08:03:04 UTC
Without even reading the post, I have to point out it's dated 04.02, so for an April Fool's, it's a tad late...
Kara Roideater
#1270 - 2012-04-02 09:12:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Kara Roideater
The Mittani wrote:

The theme of this year's Goonswarm Alliance presentation is going to be Goonswarm hates you - and basically just talk about each different little aspect of demographic of eve of how much we hate them and want them all to die and kill themselves. Like highsec miners, we want them to kill themselves; people who role-play, we want them to kill themselves; people with Titans, we want them to kill themselves. There's just a whole host of people I hope to really offend by telling them to commit suicide while on stage in front of thousands of nerds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTRQ05Bqq_E c. 7.00 to 7.40. Source uploaded to Youtube 27th January 2012
Azran Zala
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1271 - 2012-04-02 09:35:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Azran Zala
Mr Kidd wrote:

Review the video again. You must have missed the part where Mittens solicited audience members to join and "help" make the guy commit suicide. It was pretty clear. There was no interpretation of his wording. He SOLICITED help specifically for the purposes of driving the guy to suicide.


Again, I put it to you he did not ask for anyones help or for them to do anything.
Please state his full quotation, and what parts of it you believe fit your argument.
Azran Zala
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1272 - 2012-04-02 10:04:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Azran Zala
Kara Roideater wrote:

The theme of this year's Goonswarm Alliance presentation is going to be Goonswarm hates you - and basically just talk about each different little aspect of demographic of eve of how much we hate them and want them all to die and kill themselves. Like highsec miners, we want them to kill themselves; people who role-play, we want them to kill themselves; people with Titans, we want them to kill themselves. [u][i][b]There's just a whole host of people I hope to really offend by telling them to commit suicide while on stage in front of thousands of nerds.


But it was explained in the actual presentation, that goonswarm infact, loves you.
and the only controvertial part was an offhand remark after the presentation.
I found the actual presentation heart warming, and feel butterflies inside that there are so many goons out there with big hearts, filled with love for their fellow players. Not only that, but also highlighted a few issues that need to be addressed in eve & the csm: the need for religious tollerance, english literacy, and removal of the stigma associated with depression.
General Tux
Asgard Intelligence School
#1273 - 2012-04-02 10:14:58 UTC  |  Edited by: General Tux
Dear Forum

the decision is absolutely correct and still pretty liberal. It is hard to describe that in a foreign-language, I hope it will be sufficent

I am not a fan of the Alliance Panel, because it seems like a jumping jack show there. But Mittani really beats that fact even closer to the ground.

Sad, that so much people follows that kind of presentation style, even the more eloquent players. I think we need more serious, more eloquent and more mature people. Playing on the darkside of EvE is one part, but present yourself in that way and in addition to that, mobbing a specific player is really unacceptable.

A good chairman is person who is much more professional, much more political and more integer.

True strength comes through humility.
Kinis Deren
Mosquito Squadron
D0GS OF WAR
#1274 - 2012-04-02 10:17:16 UTC
Kara Roideater wrote:
The Mittani wrote:

The theme of this year's Goonswarm Alliance presentation is going to be Goonswarm hates you - and basically just talk about each different little aspect of demographic of eve of how much we hate them and want them all to die and kill themselves. Like highsec miners, we want them to kill themselves; people who role-play, we want them to kill themselves; people with Titans, we want them to kill themselves. There's just a whole host of people I hope to really offend by telling them to commit suicide while on stage in front of thousands of nerds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTRQ05Bqq_E c. 7.00 to 7.40. Source uploaded to Youtube 27th January 2012


Well, having listened to the recording it certainly would seem that what happened on the panel was intentional and not the drink fueled rant as has been suggested in a certain apology.

I wonder if CCP considered this evidence?
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1275 - 2012-04-02 10:25:32 UTC
"Drinks with Bolton"

all you need to know

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1276 - 2012-04-02 10:54:19 UTC
Azran Zala wrote:
Kara Roideater wrote:

The theme of this year's Goonswarm Alliance presentation is going to be Goonswarm hates you - and basically just talk about each different little aspect of demographic of eve of how much we hate them and want them all to die and kill themselves. Like highsec miners, we want them to kill themselves; people who role-play, we want them to kill themselves; people with Titans, we want them to kill themselves. [u][i][b]There's just a whole host of people I hope to really offend by telling them to commit suicide while on stage in front of thousands of nerds.


But it was explained in the actual presentation, that goonswarm infact, loves you.
and the only controvertial part was an offhand remark after the presentation.
I found the actual presentation heart warming, and feel butterflies inside that there are so many goons out there with big hearts, filled with love for their fellow players. Not only that, but also highlighted a few issues that need to be addressed in eve & the csm: the need for religious tollerance, english literacy, and removal of the stigma associated with depression.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTRQ05Bqq_E c. 7.00 to 7.40. Source uploaded to Youtube 27th January 2012

Those are not the words of Kara Roideater. Those are the transcribed words of The Mittani and when added with the Alliance Panel video makes all your posturing and semantics a waste of time.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1277 - 2012-04-02 11:08:12 UTC
aren't you desperate then

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Kale Kold
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1278 - 2012-04-02 12:32:36 UTC
If it was all pre-meditated then Mittani should be permabanned!

“Some people call me insane for the destruction I’ve caused, ...I believe I was just doing my duty!” -- Testimony submitted to Caldari Navy war crimes tribunal.
Scion Hakonen
Winter Forge Syndicate
Fraternity.
#1279 - 2012-04-02 12:33:12 UTC
To all the whining goonswarm pilots claiming their votes are lost. Well you shouldn't have given your vote to such an idiot, go complain to him. I think he should be happy with the ban he got. He should have been removed from the game.
Harry Farina
Doomheim
#1280 - 2012-04-02 12:45:06 UTC
This thread just got real interesting all of a sudden.