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Eve Radio Midnight Tonight: This week in review, with Trebor, Seleene, Two Step and... The Mittani

First post
Author
Zirise
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#121 - 2012-03-31 04:49:31 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Zirise wrote:


People tell people to kill themselves all the time on the internet, it's virtually never intended to be taken as serious. The Mittani, in a moment of drunkenness forgot that this culture doesn't extend to the world at large. It really is that simple.


First point, agreed. However, telling a large group of individuals to harass a very specific person with the specific goal of that person committing suicide is not even close to being similar.

Drunkenness or levity is not an invokable defense here.

google: incitement to suicide.


It's very similar. 'Kill yourself' is supposedly edgy or cool or something in many online communities. I can't profess to know what the hell Mittens was thinking (and neither can he, most likely) but it certainly came across as him trying to be ~edgy and ~cool. It did not come across as threatening or literal.

Do you actually believe that Mittens was genuinely trying to incite people to harass a person into committing suicide? Really?
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#122 - 2012-03-31 04:49:38 UTC
Frederick Sanger wrote:
You're really going to continue to use Mitten's real name even after someone just gave out his home address and threatened his wife. Giving out another players personal information (including their real name) is against the EULA and considering what just happened in very poor taste.


Running for CSM involves giving up one's internet anonymity. I have done it (hence you know I'm known as Andrew Cruse irl) and Alexander Gianturco has done it. So don't attempt to legal-shizzle me with your voodoo nonsense please.

As I noted elsewhere the person who claimed to reveal Alexander's address on the eve-radio channel tonight was very bad. They got petitioned (and I understand) dealt with. Whether it was the real address or just troll is irrelevant at this point. Metagaming should leave people's rl out of in-game conflicts.

Which is precisely the point I was making with the goons continuing the use of a troll url that was created specifically to attempt to get me in trouble with my rl employers in 2008. If you want to join me in opposing the abuse of eve players via ooc harrassment then by all means join me in condemning such things without partizan boundaries. Otherwise your opinions become quite suspect.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Allandi
Doomheim
#123 - 2012-03-31 04:49:55 UTC
Zirise wrote:
Allandi wrote:
Then whats the problem? Do you complain this much about real life political commercials which expose another candidate's youthful indiscretions?


Please point to all my 3 or 4 posts of complaints confined to this thread, I am so sorry if I have overburdened the EVE community.

The problem is people are waving banners of ~moral outrage~ when it has a lot more to do with axes that need grinding.


Question was more rhetorical and not necessarily directed at you.

Regardless, some people ARE morally outraged at his behavior. By some moral standards, he stepped pretty far over the line in his dealings with another human being.

Personally, I would never do what he did, drunk or not, and I don't know anyone personally that could act so callously in real life. Again, it may be a joke, but someone was on the ass end of a very hurtful and hateful joke.

I'm the type of person that doesn't watch shock videos because I don't like to see other people in pain, so I'm far more squishy than the average EVE player.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#124 - 2012-03-31 04:54:15 UTC
Zirise wrote:

It's very similar. 'Kill yourself' is supposedly edgy or cool or something in many online communities. I can't profess to know what the hell Mittens was thinking (and neither can he, most likely) but it certainly came across as him trying to be ~edgy and ~cool. It did not come across as threatening or literal.

Do you actually believe that Mittens was genuinely trying to incite people to harass a person into committing suicide? Really?

Myself I don't think that. Is why it was only a 30 day ban. Partially because even as jest, if there was a suicide risk then the jest could have caused harm. Of course also the statements of EULA. If intention was clearly sincere for some really strange reason, I think we all agree it would have been permanent and possibly even more ramifications.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#125 - 2012-03-31 04:57:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Zirise wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Zirise wrote:


People tell people to kill themselves all the time on the internet, it's virtually never intended to be taken as serious. The Mittani, in a moment of drunkenness forgot that this culture doesn't extend to the world at large. It really is that simple.


First point, agreed. However, telling a large group of individuals to harass a very specific person with the specific goal of that person committing suicide is not even close to being similar.

Drunkenness or levity is not an invokable defense here.

google: incitement to suicide.


It's very similar. 'Kill yourself' is supposedly edgy or cool or something in many online communities. I can't profess to know what the hell Mittens was thinking (and neither can he, most likely) but it certainly came across as him trying to be ~edgy and ~cool. It did not come across as threatening or literal.

Do you actually believe that Mittens was genuinely trying to incite people to harass a person into committing suicide? Really?


Except he did not say "kill yourself". He specifically directed other individuals (potentially thousands) to harass a specific EVE player with the objective that that player would kill himself in real life.

He created an entire slideshow and presentation beforehand to set this up. "I was drunk and an *******" is not a positive defense here.

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Zirise
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#126 - 2012-03-31 05:02:28 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Zirise wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Zirise wrote:


People tell people to kill themselves all the time on the internet, it's virtually never intended to be taken as serious. The Mittani, in a moment of drunkenness forgot that this culture doesn't extend to the world at large. It really is that simple.


First point, agreed. However, telling a large group of individuals to harass a very specific person with the specific goal of that person committing suicide is not even close to being similar.

Drunkenness or levity is not an invokable defense here.

google: incitement to suicide.


It's very similar. 'Kill yourself' is supposedly edgy or cool or something in many online communities. I can't profess to know what the hell Mittens was thinking (and neither can he, most likely) but it certainly came across as him trying to be ~edgy and ~cool. It did not come across as threatening or literal.

Do you actually believe that Mittens was genuinely trying to incite people to harass a person into committing suicide? Really?


Except he did not say "kill yourself". He specifically directed other individuals (potentially thousands) to harass a specific EVE player with the objective so that that player would kill himself.

He setup an entire slideshow and presentation beforehand. "I was drunk and an *******" is not a positive defense here.



You and I both know there would be the same level of outcry had he even 'just' said kill yourself. It's simply an alien concept to anyone outside some areas of internet culture.

Anyways we can keep debating this but obviously you think The Mittani implied he wanted people to encourage this guy to kill himself and I don't. vOv
Allandi
Doomheim
#127 - 2012-03-31 05:07:18 UTC
Zirise wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Zirise wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Zirise wrote:


People tell people to kill themselves all the time on the internet, it's virtually never intended to be taken as serious. The Mittani, in a moment of drunkenness forgot that this culture doesn't extend to the world at large. It really is that simple.


First point, agreed. However, telling a large group of individuals to harass a very specific person with the specific goal of that person committing suicide is not even close to being similar.

Drunkenness or levity is not an invokable defense here.

google: incitement to suicide.


It's very similar. 'Kill yourself' is supposedly edgy or cool or something in many online communities. I can't profess to know what the hell Mittens was thinking (and neither can he, most likely) but it certainly came across as him trying to be ~edgy and ~cool. It did not come across as threatening or literal.

Do you actually believe that Mittens was genuinely trying to incite people to harass a person into committing suicide? Really?


Except he did not say "kill yourself". He specifically directed other individuals (potentially thousands) to harass a specific EVE player with the objective so that that player would kill himself.

He setup an entire slideshow and presentation beforehand. "I was drunk and an *******" is not a positive defense here.



You and I both know there would be the same level of outcry had he even 'just' said kill yourself. It's simply an alien concept to anyone outside some areas of internet culture.

Anyways we can keep debating this but obviously you think The Mittani implied he wanted people to encourage this guy to kill himself and I don't. vOv


I doubt his goal was to see the guy seriously off himself. But at the same time, he had to be aware that a huge chunk of his alliance-mates would actually do what he said and endlessly harass the fellow (had there not been warnings made about it).
Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#128 - 2012-03-31 05:10:06 UTC
lol all you people who are continuing this tirade against The Mittani are becoming that which you seem to despise so much. Group think, bandwagoning, and blind acceptance are all dangerous things.

Member of the Pink Pony Killboard Padding Alliance

Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#129 - 2012-03-31 05:15:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Zirise wrote:


Anyways we can keep debating this but obviously you think The Mittani implied he wanted people to encourage this guy to kill himself and I don't. vOv


His drunken intentions at the time does not matter whatsoever, what was actually said in front of an audience of thousands is what matters.

In some countries (such as Australia) he would be jailed for his public incitement to suicide regardless of his intent or sobriety. He should thank his lucky stars he was in Iceland, and that the player whom his speech was directed at did not press charges in the US after he arrived home.

But, no. Keep telling everyone it's the media's fault, he didn't mean it, and he is only the fall guy for a media lynch mob. He's the self-proclaimed internet spaceships spy-master, so what he said is not intended to be a factual statement.

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#130 - 2012-03-31 05:18:29 UTC  |  Edited by: RougeOperator
Originally I was upset

But his twitter said he would step down, apologies, give isk to guy. I thought thats awesome.

But then step down, became resign from CSM6 but still be on CSM7 I was pretty WTF about that. It was at that point that the apology became hollow to me. As it felt like he was just doing it to keep his power. And that you really didnt understand the gravity of the situation. This is when it all spun out of control.

Then the goons started their barrage of crap on the forums with illogical garbage and pretty much condoned what mittens had done. You should have ordered them not to say a freaking thing about it. But they spammed the threads up and elevated it even more.

It only reinforced what I understood of the situation, that unless something highly visible was done about the incident it wouldnt matter. So i believed a ban of some length had to be done next.

And yes it was cyber bullying mittens. Of the worst sort. And it was incitement to suicide. You yourself say there are crazy people in even who send me death threats and more. Yet you turn around at fanfest and light the fuse to have people harass a player to his death? Jest or not with your understanding as you say of the crazies on the internet means you cant weasel out of the responsibility of your actions or the ramifications those actions might have had on a real person.

Then the state of the goonion....Lots of crying of it being CCPs fault. "No im really sincere about my apology, no really I am, but its really these other guys fault? they tossed me under a bus, so lets take it out on everyone else get on the forums and make it worse Goons." To paraphrase, Are you flipping kidding?

Then you go on eve radio, after understanding the damage of having your IRL name used and start throwing out another persons name left and right. Are you mental? What ever your reasons and self justification you just come off as even more childish in this. More bullying tactics at play.

Also the blame shifting, finger wagging, and the I did bad but its everyone's elses fault too?

Freaking stop with the childish baloney already. You keep making it worse. The its all the big bad media line is a bunch of bullcrap buttherpdedeurp.

Also it was CYBERBULLYING. The attempts to redefine it by saying ITS KIDS DOING IT PRIMARILY is sickening. My cousin wasn't a child when he killed himself from harassment. Done by people that thought they were just joking. You are the ringmaster of a gang of cyberbullies. Now your are going to bully everyone to fix your PR? WTF?

You keep making it worse every step of the way.

You are a public figure and as such open to public discussion of your actions and behavior. You put yourself out there like that.

Also eve radio, nice bull-crap soft balling you did there. Fluff mittens some more for us.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **

Frying Doom
#131 - 2012-03-31 05:48:58 UTC
Most people especially the goonsheep would probably state I'm an insane nutter who hates Mittens. Well no, I love to watch Goons Cry.

But The Mittani was thown out of the CSM, the Meta gamer, was meta gamed out of a pile of work he did getting himself on the CSM.

We have all tasted those yummy goon tears.

But seriously this went too far when people contacted out of game media outlets those idiots changed it from a game to an incident damaging the game itself as well as The Mittani's Real life. The forums are part of the meta game in EvE so is the fan fest apparently. The goons need to back down or find a new subject to harass so we don't keep wringing out those tears. We all need to back down as well.

I don't think he was actually being real life mean, when he said what he did he was acting like an EvE player who got drunk and just went a little too far. People including myself pounced on him and his goon attack dogs, so we could harvest the tears. Frankly I'm sickened people took this GAME out of the game to threaten him, his wife and his dog. That behavior was worse than anything he has ever done and you all deserve prison time. We all think his Ego was way to large but anything someone does in a game is just a game. He has payed a high price for his 10 second comment.

People just need to step back and realize this game including the forums is just a game. We should let it die, I'm sure we can find a lot more things in the next 12 months to harvest goon tears from.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2012-03-31 06:01:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Marksalot
Jade Constantine wrote:
Sir Marksalot wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
All that is asked of the SA community is that you respect the boundaries between in-game conflict and ooc harrassment and make sure you stay on the right side of the line.




That's literally what mittens said in the interview. You should listen to it.



Well you'd help his case immensely if you started to accept the need for this also.

(and by *you* I do largely mean SA members on Eve online forums)


It's funny, because I/we do.
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2012-03-31 06:02:19 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Caimeka wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Sir Marksalot wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
All that is asked of the SA community is that you respect the boundaries between in-game conflict and ooc harrassment and make sure you stay on the right side of the line.




That's literally what mittens said in the interview. You should listen to it.



Well you'd help his case immensely if you started to accept the need for this also.

(and by *you* I do largely mean SA members on Eve online forums)


I would like to order a 2 dollar sucky sucky


case in point.

Someone making fun of you in a forum is not the same as someone literally threatening to kill you irl.
Htrag
The Carebear Stare
Hydroponic Zone
#134 - 2012-03-31 06:15:42 UTC
Can CCP moderate the dudes real name being used on the forums, or is that fair game now?

I can understand people going all out with the meta gaming, but the intentional spamming of keywords tied to a real name is extremely hypocritical in the context of condemning harassment.

Whatever "dev" it was that removed the pod squish sound probably never even logged into the game.

Frederick Sanger
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#135 - 2012-03-31 06:18:43 UTC
Seeing the number times that Jade Constantine has typed out Mitten's real name, just in this thread alone is repulsive.
Win Sui
State War Academy
Caldari State
#136 - 2012-03-31 06:28:59 UTC
ccp wrote:

What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle (this is why you are allowed to hit someone in a boxing match, but not outside the ring). However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.


Hey Jade - reported for using a players real name. Since he's not a member of CSM 6 or 7 the standard rules apply. See yas.
Stalking Mantis
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#137 - 2012-03-31 06:41:58 UTC
Dear DJFunkyBacon,

I have a point I would like to bring to your show:

It is very apparent that a large portion of EVE players have trouble differentiating between people that fill multiple roles.

e.g. if an Alliance leader is representing his Alliance and his Alliances goals, agendas or philosophies and that person also is a member of the CSM.

Does the EVE community expect someone to stop being themselves and playing EVE the way they always have when they are elected to the CSM?


Amarr Liason Officer Extraordinare -->Check Out Amarrian Vengeance/Amarr FW History from 2011 to 2014 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=352629&find=unread

Black Dranzer
#138 - 2012-03-31 07:06:02 UTC
Am I the only one who thinks Mittens' slandering of Massively was a little out of line?

I mean, okay, yes, sensationalist bullshit media blah blah blah.

But by the same token, if he hadn't gotten drunk and been so ******* stupid, the media wouldn't have had anything to pick up on in the first place. He owns at least half of the blame for the negative media that has resulted. Listening to him talk about the potentially damaging nature of the press makes me more pissed off at him for the potential harm against CCP than his potential harm against this Wiz guy.

Some people have a right to be outraged at the Media's stupidity. I don't believe mittens is one of those people.
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#139 - 2012-03-31 07:08:57 UTC
Black Dranzer wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks Mittens' slandering of Massively was a little out of line?

I mean, okay, yes, sensationalist bullshit media blah blah blah.

But by the same token, if he hadn't gotten drunk and been so ******* stupid, the media wouldn't have had anything to pick up on in the first place. He owns at least half of the blame for the negative media that has resulted. Listening to him talk about the potentially damaging nature of the press makes me more pissed off at him for the potential harm against CCP than his potential harm against this Wiz guy.

Some people have a right to be outraged at the Media's stupidity. I don't believe mittens is one of those people.



Yes his reaction was a bit out of line.

You hit some good points about how he is trying to hide what his actions would have done to the Wiz with his Wag the Dog bullcrap.

Its so obvious it hurts.

Also Eve Radio being so softball with him and basically being his cheerleaders was pretty bad.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **

Mistress Lilu
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#140 - 2012-03-31 07:09:30 UTC
couldnt stand his voice, what a douche.
He kept referring to his mindless goons as MY PEOPLE.
douche +10 more douche.