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New Dev Blog: Alliance Panel at Fanfest 2012: The Conclusion

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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#1121 - 2012-03-30 06:57:52 UTC
First, I like CCP's decision. I think it's fair. Mittani was clearly out of line, but permabanning him would ignore the fact that it was not just him alone being an ass. To be fair, it's not like everyone else was being polite and sober in one corner and he suddenly dashed off and crossed the line by jumping over it; it's more like there was and has been for some time a crowd at or across the line and he was drunk and staggered one step too far in the wrong direction.

Question to CCP and/or CSM:

Considering that this event was not an isolated incident, but a culmination of a culture where it is considered normal and acceptable (even desirable by some) to publicly humiliate rivals and verbally abuse other players in order to "harvest tears" (and I assure you those are RL tears), are you planning to take steps to fix the underlying bully-friendly culture? Or do you consider the culture just fine, as long as suicide etc are not mentioned?

(Before anyone cries about making EVE a WoW in Space, no, that's not what I am after. I want an EVE where baiting, ganking, blobbing, scamming, trapping, using clever tricks, gloating on local and PR wars are still possible. But I also want an EVE where it is not ok to point and laugh when someone is upset, or use racist/sexist/homophobic/etc slurs to hurt people for real. And where we all admit that part of why EVE is great is that it is a serious game and to be good at it you have to take it seriously - compare to RL sports - and that's why losing actually matters. See more of that in this discussion.)
Ivana Twinkle
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1122 - 2012-03-30 07:18:25 UTC
of course he would.
L4ST
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1123 - 2012-03-30 07:31:21 UTC
The more I read here the more I like what I before considered the only not-so-positive point on Mittens: His bullying on players with few knowledge of the game - Where (knowledge of the game) ~ (skill) for most of this game btw...

Voted for Mittens before, now may not say that I'm a "real" Mitten voter anymore, as I'm in the CFC and thus my payment of 2 bil ISK for my vote should arrive shortly according to non-CFC-players.

The whole CSM stating that he keeps the **** together there and actually fulfills his job as the chairman is the reason why. I don't think the CSM is about smacktalking **** and bullying other ppl/alliances at all. Already because there are simpler ways to get into a high council of pro-trolls than gathering 10,000 votes.


He did **** because he was drunk, regret it and stepping down from CSM VOLUNTARILY + getting a 30 days ban is the concequence. Dunno what happens if we ban every player who spams Jita with "kill yourself" for 30 days.

Maybe CCP should also take consequences and for future alliance panels go "sober or silent". Everyone tries to take this game serious, so be serious.

Seeing this, planning Burn Jita was extremely prospective by the way.


TL;DR

S H U T T H E F U C K UP
No matter if you like Goons or not Mitten is the best that has happened to the CSM. As CSM, he himself and CCP treated him harder than other players would be treated. Clap for it, cheer and send some Titans, you already got more than you haters deserve. Conspiracy Sh*theads.
GeneralDisturbed
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1124 - 2012-03-30 07:34:14 UTC
A guy gives out an in-game character name, that could easily be found by anybody that goes to eve-kill. No personal information whatsoever. CCP gives no fucks, because that's Eve. And that's the eve they sell. A world where you can be a space bastard if you choose.

The second the media gets wind of this, suddenly Eve is a honoureable space game where players are nice to each other, and ships **** rainbows. And Mittani, the evil space bastard that CCP was praising at fanfest, must now be thrown under a bus.

Sounds to me like CCP needs to HARD THE **** UP! And not go hide in a hole and pretend like eve isn't what it really is, when they get some negative press.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvM7av1o1Q <--- Watch this before CCP remembers it and presumably removes it.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#1125 - 2012-03-30 07:40:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
The EVE that CCP sells is a sandbox game where you can do anything. They by no means have ever, anywhere, sold a game where you can go on stage in their live event and use your limelight time to point and laugh at other players, let alone call them names and incite other players to harass them in game to drive them to suicide. They also do have rules in place about what is acceptable language (though it does seem they do not have the resources and/or interest to enforce those). That they let it go as far as actual reference to driving someone to death before they intervened is what should surprise people here - not that they did eventually do something.

A sandbox is for building whatever you want and playing whatever games you like. There is no fixed plot you have to use and you can use the toys provided the way you like. But if you start calling other kids names and throwing the sand in their eyes, a kindergarten teacher is going to come and pick you up and put you on the timeout bench, and no amount of kicking and screaming about how it was your sand will save you. The only thing left to do at that point is to grow up and realize that despite having the freedom to play you do not have the freedom to bully.
Mashie Saldana
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#1126 - 2012-03-30 07:43:36 UTC
Goons running out of tears after only 57 pages?

What happened with the ~10058~?

How to win EVE
GeneralDisturbed
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1127 - 2012-03-30 07:51:19 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
The EVE that CCP sells is a sandbox game where you can do anything. They by no means have ever, anywhere, sold a game where you can go on stage in their live event and use your limelight time to point and laugh at other players, let alone call them names and incite other players to harass them in game to drive them to suicide. They also do have rules in place about what is acceptable language (though it does seem they do not have the resources and/or interest to enforce those). That they let it go as far as actual reference to driving someone to death before they intervened is what should surprise people here - not that they did eventually do something.


That they let it go on so long shouldn't surprise anybody. This is the eve a lot of players, including myself were sold on when we joined. A game where you can be a space bastard and CCP gives no fucks. They looked at the slides, they knew what the goon presentation was about- all the players we've griefed over the year, and they approved it just fine.

If CCP gave two ***** about this pubbie, they could have intervened at any point, given him his stuff back, told us to leave him alone, etc... but they don't do that. Because that's not how eve is. You can hound a guy to the end of the galaxy, steal all his stuff, blow up everything he ever owned... and CCP DOES NOT CARE. That is eve.

At no point during the presentation did CCP step in to stop any of this, even after the Q&A. If they gave a **** they would have stood up and said something the second the guy asked the question of who this player was ingame. They didn't. They didn't say anything as Mittani stood there and slow spelled out the guys name for everyone. It was funny, people were laughing, CCP gives no fucks.

The -only reason- they are taking any action whatsoever is because of the media attention to this. They're trying to make eve out to be some sunshine and roses fairyland where nothing bad ever happens to good people. And it's utter crap. And anybody in 0.0, from any alliance, goons or otherwise, know that it's crap. That's not the eve we play.

CCP should take their own advice and HTFU, and not throw both the CSM, and The Mittani under a bus.
Ajita al Tchar
Doomheim
#1128 - 2012-03-30 08:20:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Ajita al Tchar
jugornaut wrote:
lol the thing everyone fails to see is that mittens stepped down to start - the fact that ccp removed him after the fact is just pomp and circumstance..

10k voters with unheard voices should be shouting at mittens asking why the hell did he step down to begin with - instead you blame ccp for his drunken banter (which btw csm should be held to a higher standard)

besides 10k votes - after goons admitted to fraud to get those votes - gg noobs


Just after Mitt's first Twitter posts re: the situation I looked at the CSM rules and I knew what I would do in his situation. This decision would have been especially easy since it's as close to a "win-win" as you can get given the ****** situation

Mittens said he was genuinely sorry which I believe, I would probably feel the same way: made an ass of myself, possibly made someone else feel ******, embarrassed multiple people, stirred up a shitstorm, again--possibly (and likely) harmed someone who didn't deserve it at all, etc. Repentant of my actions, stepping down from my current role as Chairman and member of the CSM in general would seem appropriate; after all, I kind of no longer deserve to be seen in that role. BUT WAIT! This opens up another win. Should I end up being banned over this or warned or something (likely...), it will have happened to me no longer as a CSM 6 member and not yet as a CSM 7, but as a regular EVE-dude with no political power and no expectations. Different rules apply to CSM people in that respect: commit a bad during your term and, since you've just dragged the image of CSM through the mud and acted in a way that doesn't befit your office you're out and can not sit on the council again. If you're banned or warned as a "civilian" you *can* be banned from CSM in the future, but it's not a guarantee. Read difference between two cases of infractions at the end.

So, both from a "I did the crime, I should do the time" point of view (really feeling sorry about stuff, want to do something that feels right) and the point of view of an okay political move, there's literally NO reason to not resign from all CSM positions as soon as I realize I did something pretty ******* bad that might be ban-worthy, and just a ****** thing to do from a human standpoint. This way I'll be missing just a little more than a year of CSM membership and can run again, and resigning from your current office that I've just sullied with stupid shenanigans is a good thing to do. I can represent my people again in a year rather than never; sounds better, no? This wouldn't mean that I'm not feeling any genuine guilt and remorse, not at all. It really is just a matter of as close to a win-win solution as I can find for a shittastic situation I'm responsible for.

Unfortunately, no matter how I know I feel, this would seem like I'm apparently just trying to weasel out in the most advantageous way possible. But I believe that just because someone ****** up, doesn't mean they must self-flagellate for the rest of their life, restricting themselves entirely to bad everything from now on. Making smart moves is something that's independent of feeling genuinely sorry. Is this something Mittani was thinking of and aiming for, or did it just fall out like that? IDK, but I think it worked out in the best way possible. As I said before, personally I think that leaving Mittens in CSM 7 would have been good, which can't happen if he's banned, so no ban... But... The more I thought about it, the more right it seemed for CCP to issue said ban, I know I'd be very much okay with it and it would have felt entirely appropriate had I been in Mitt's place. Which once again leaves the option of resigning and skipping CSM 7.

Infractions and consequences for a CSM member:
"any behavior or actions considered being a material breach of the EULA or TOS by a CSM representative is grounds for immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion from all pending and future participation in the council. there are no exceptions, regardless of the infraction. representatives are not only expected to uphold the social contract that all society members are held accountable to, but should also set a behavior standard for everyone else to follow."
(you'll be fired and banhammered from the CSM forever)

Infractions and consequences for a non-CSM member:
"players with a serious warning or ban on any account in their possession can be excluded from candidate eligibility. However, in-game behavior, regardless of play style, will never be a criterion for candidacy unless the rules of the EULA and/or TOS are violated."
(you may not be hired even if you broke the EULA/TOS, it's going to be a matter of discussion and opinion)
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#1129 - 2012-03-30 08:20:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
GeneralDisturbed wrote:
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
The EVE that CCP sells is a sandbox game where you can do anything. They by no means have ever, anywhere, sold a game where you can go on stage in their live event and use your limelight time to point and laugh at other players, let alone call them names and incite other players to harass them in game to drive them to suicide. They also do have rules in place about what is acceptable language (though it does seem they do not have the resources and/or interest to enforce those). That they let it go as far as actual reference to driving someone to death before they intervened is what should surprise people here - not that they did eventually do something.


That they let it go on so long shouldn't surprise anybody. This is the eve a lot of players, including myself were sold on when we joined. A game where you can be a space bastard and CCP gives no fucks. They looked at the slides, they knew what the goon presentation was about- all the players we've griefed over the year, and they approved it just fine.

I agree on this 100 %. They looked away and let it go on so long and so far that people actually honestly join the game expecting that public humiliation of other players and pointing and laughing in order to "harvest tears" is CCP-encouraged policy, rather than a result of them not having a policy they enforce and letting a particular player group sell their idea as The Truth About Eve. (And some people probably join and leave without CCP ever hearing of them, because that point is sold to them too, so well that they never even attempt petitioning.)

That's a huge problem, and while I think Mittens's punishment is fair, it should not be made so that he will be made the sole scapegoat of what is a wide-spread cultural problem in the whole EVE. That would not be in the interests of anyone, not the ones who want the right to make other people cry for real, and not the ones who oppose it.

I am rather shocked they approved of slides that consisted of nothing but berating other players. Yes, they say in the devblog that the alliance panel is supposed to be a really open forum and yes, I see the value in that... but still. I am even more WTF about the players who think this is what we should hear from our most successful alliance leaders, whom I am pretty damn sure would have actually interesting things to provide, instead of what you can hear on any high-sec local any day. I mean, whether or not you like that stuff being on locals - would you still rather not hear something more unique in the alliance panel?
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1130 - 2012-03-30 08:49:12 UTC
GeneralDisturbed wrote:
A guy gives out an in-game character name, that could easily be found by anybody that goes to eve-kill. No personal information whatsoever. CCP gives no fucks, because that's Eve. And that's the eve they sell. A world where you can be a space bastard if you choose.

The second the media gets wind of this, suddenly Eve is a honoureable space game where players are nice to each other, and ships **** rainbows. And Mittani, the evil space bastard that CCP was praising at fanfest, must now be thrown under a bus.

Sounds to me like CCP needs to HARD THE **** UP! And not go hide in a hole and pretend like eve isn't what it really is, when they get some negative press.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvM7av1o1Q <--- Watch this before CCP remembers it and presumably removes it.


Sounds like you need to be the one to watch it.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1131 - 2012-03-30 08:51:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
The EVE that CCP sells is a sandbox game where you can do anything. They by no means have ever, anywhere, sold a game where you can go on stage in their live event and use your limelight time to point and laugh at other players, let alone call them names and incite other players to harass them in game to drive them to suicide. They also do have rules in place about what is acceptable language (though it does seem they do not have the resources and/or interest to enforce those). That they let it go as far as actual reference to driving someone to death before they intervened is what should surprise people here - not that they did eventually do something.

A sandbox is for building whatever you want and playing whatever games you like. There is no fixed plot you have to use and you can use the toys provided the way you like. But if you start calling other kids names and throwing the sand in their eyes, a kindergarten teacher is going to come and pick you up and put you on the timeout bench, and no amount of kicking and screaming about how it was your sand will save you. The only thing left to do at that point is to grow up and realize that despite having the freedom to play you do not have the freedom to bully.


First of all, did you see the names of the pilots singing their respective national anthems to the glee and delight of every nerd in Reykjavík? Do you think CCP was laughing too? Because it sure looked like it. Or how about the slide which was vetted where an Eve player hinted at symptoms of mental instability and possible suicide? Do you think they let that go up on the screen because they want Eve to be Hello Kitty Online?

Were IPOL and the local police dispatched to this "victim's" home, as per CCP policy, when they became aware of his purported condition? Was anything done for nearly a week after this "reprehensible offense?"

Is it possible, however unlikely, that even in a state of drunken stupor Mittens was being allegorical? Is it remotely conceivable that he didn't genuinely want this person to die?

Did everybody in the presentation have their headsets on, laptops ready to blow this dude up and supposedly verify the IRL kill? Or were they at a location where this was unfeasible?

Did CCP, a tech-savvy firm with a historical penchant for cramming both of their feet in their mouth and going "nom nom nom" with regard to bad press think, even for a second, that broadcasting drunks for profit with no delay might not be a good idea? Did anybody at fanfest sign a waiver of their rights to free speech or even receive a verbal warning pertaining to the Q&A session and its potential consequences in-and-out-of game before the panel?

I just wonder if you can clear some of this up for we disenfranchised, since you obviously have a pretty firm grasp of what CCP has and has not done for the community that basically props up Iceland's entire economy.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#1132 - 2012-03-30 08:59:51 UTC
I do not think Mittens wanted the person to actually die. My guess is he really just did not think about it that way at all - he made a joke, and the thought that it might have real consequences just did not occur to him at the moment. Had he stopped to think things like "Do I really want that person to hurt themselves? Is there any risk that he might?", he probably would have just not made the joke at all. For me this issue does not really depend on whether Mittens intended it as a joke or not, and whether the victim was at any point in any real danger. This is not primarily about the victim (and sorry if that sounds harsh), this is about what kind of behavior is acceptable. It is very usual in school bullying incidents for the perpetrators to be totally astonished when they are punished: "It was just a joke! We did not really think he cared!" And the point is, a lot of them really never did. That does not make bullying ok.

Beyond that, CCP has spoken about the issues you mention in another related devblog: http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=28575 - you probably get more out of that than from me trying to interpret their intentions to you. :) For the record, I do think they botched stuff here and before - to use my metaphor, they are not very good kindergarten teachers here and need to do some shaping up - but so do they.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1133 - 2012-03-30 09:06:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Duly noted and I will be posting a quote from this thread to that thread.

Not like I expect my questions to be answered - or even considered.

CCP's actions speak volumes here. Volumes.

EDIT: Also, having to consider any possible risk to any victim in this game ever pretty much negates the whole game, as there's no telling what emorage from internet spaceship violence might bring out in an otherwise well-adjusted but relatively new Eve player.

I'm absolutely serious, think about the culpability that implies.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Haellena
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1134 - 2012-03-30 10:40:46 UTC
Goons raging, Mittani being his usual self, everyone else in New Eden wanting the Goons gone...

I see nothing out of the ordinary with this, why is everyone still so upset? Wherever the Goonion goes, drama follows, this is exactly what they want and you're all giving it to them.

He messed up, he got banned for it, boo-hoo, shed tears, get a new CEO and move on. Or... yanno... wait until either the ban is lifted or he gets another account. Simple enough.

This has lasted for 50+ pages and all I've seen is flaming, drama-queens and bashing. This thread is better off gone.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#1135 - 2012-03-30 10:46:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Darth Gustav wrote:
Duly noted and I will be posting a quote from this thread to that thread.

Not like I expect my questions to be answered - or even considered.

CCP's actions speak volumes here. Volumes.

EDIT: Also, having to consider any possible risk to any victim in this game ever pretty much negates the whole game, as there's no telling what emorage from internet spaceship violence might bring out in an otherwise well-adjusted but relatively new Eve player.

I'm absolutely serious, think about the culpability that implies.

No one is asking you to think of any possible culpability. As I read CCP's statements on this, they have been absolutely not at all against the miner having been blown up in the first case. Their condemnation only concerns what was said about it, to whom, and how. There has been a discussion about this on GD (thread asking for clarification on this), and like I said there, based on the CCP statement and GM comment in the thread, I interpret it this way:

If you are shooting someone's ship, and at quarter armor they tell you they are suicidal and ask you to stop, it is fine (as per EVE rules - individual morals aside) to continue shooting. It is not fine to tell them to go ahead and do it, point and laugh, or share the message with others encouraging them to drive him to it, not even as a joke.

If seriously you cannot tell the difference and think that the only way to avoid doing what Mittani was punished for is to never do anything at all in EVE just in case you hurt someone, I don't think you should be playing the game. It's obviously way too complex for you.
Parthonax
#1136 - 2012-03-30 11:01:59 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Eshtir
Because you won a election( even with vote rigging and manipulation ) doesn't mean you are above the law nor should CCP make a exception , that would only give the wrong signal
I am actually suprised CCP didn't change the rules since CCP so blatantly favours those certain group of people

Edit: Personal attack removed - ISD Eshtir
so this is permanence
PleaseDONTblow Myship
Aggressive Feeding
#1137 - 2012-03-30 11:57:41 UTC
Kat Ayclism wrote:
Darius can break the NDA with no ramifications but Mittens makes fun of a carebear's pathetic, bleating attempt to gain sympathy and gets a 30day ban?

I guess I'll be reporting all the tears I get that contain threats or emo baww from now on.

Mittens remains chairman of my heart.



QFT

Free Mittens!
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#1138 - 2012-03-30 13:01:50 UTC
Shiana Soltek wrote:
What I find interesting is they are all whinning and crying about disenfranchisement. Apparently these players do not know, or do not care about the actual definition of the term. Their votes were not less effective, they were not blocked. Their votes were counted, served their purpose, and successfully elected their chosen delegate to office.

What happened was AFTER the votes were counted, and AFTER the delegate became the official Chairman to be sworn in once CSM 7 started. The delegate himself, through his OWN actions, and by his own admission, stepped down from the position of CSM 7 chairman/member. This is no different than a US elected president stepping down prior to being sworn into office for actions he committed. The votes were counted, the person was successfully elected.

Your votes were not made less effective, you were not blocked from being able to vote. The person you voted for committed immoral, unethical, and via violation of the TOS and EULA illegal actions, that resulted in his account being banned, and after some personal reflection, resigned from his elected position. Under a normal democratic society, the spot would be filled by the Vice President, or in this case, the person with the next highest amount of votes, and every position from there down filled by the person below it, and the final spot filled by the person with the highest number of votes that did not make the original CSM 7 panel.

Instead of complaining about and trying to cry "disenfranchisement", how about you condemn the person who failed to maintain a professional decorum and failed to represent his constituents in a moral, ethical, and professional manner.

You just made way too much sense in this post. The neckbeards will be further enraged...
Col Spinks
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1139 - 2012-03-30 13:03:34 UTC
Svodola Darkfury wrote:
This won't be read because it's 58 pages in;

But it's easy to cloak yourself in righteous anger when in fact your representative stepped down under immense political pressure.

As a representative of this game, at an official CCP live forum, it is inappropriate for him to even JOKE about harassing a player who is depressed/suicidal in real life with the intent of making the guy commit suicide.

If you don't like it, quit. Be sure to contract all your stuff to some player corps.

Honestly, nobody cares if the biggest alliance in the game quits. We'd be ecstatic. Might make room for some new players.



It's kind of obvious you don't actually play the game. There is room enough for everyone that pays a subscription.
Kosh Seere
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1140 - 2012-03-30 13:07:34 UTC
Parthonax wrote:
Because you won a election( even with vote rigging and manipulation ) doesn't mean you are above the law nor should CCP make a exception , that would only give the wrong signal
I am actually suprised CCP didn't change the rules since CCP so blatantly favours those certain group of people
anyway good riddance eve will be so much better for 30 days without that white trash


Hmm Mittens hardly ever log in so nothing has changed actually. 30 days of "peace"? Think again.

Skill yourself!