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CSM 11 Summit 2 Minutes Have Been Released

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Author
CCP Logibro
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2017-02-13 22:29:16 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Guard
Once again, CSM 11 visited CCP at our Reykjavik HQ for their second summit. This involved four days of meetings between CSM members and CCP developers. As part of the summit process, a set of meeting minutes are released. You can now view the meeting minutes here.

Please feel free to discuss the minutes and ask further questions to the members of the CSM in this thread.







Edit: Added the missing link. ISD Max Trix
Edit 2: Messed up the url Fixed now.

CCP Logibro // EVE Universe Community Team // Distributor of Nanites // Patron Saint of Logistics

@CCP_Logibro

HyperFlareX
Know your Role
League of Unaligned Master Pilots
#2 - 2017-02-14 00:36:51 UTC
I don't seem to able to find the graphs. I just see underlined "links" I can't click.
Circumstantial Evidence
#3 - 2017-02-14 02:06:38 UTC
Minutes pg 12 wrote:
CCP asked the CSM if they felt that overall, it was more important to make the PVE content more difficult, something you must think about each time. CCP then asked about how much effort and learning the CSM through was reasonable for a player to go from being a new player to be able to complete the highest level content.
I had hoped the overhaul of the NPC mission system was farther along than these exploratory questions suggest. It's desperately needed.

On the first question, I don't think PvE needs to be harder overall. Some small, newly authored, randomly selected goals inside of a mission could keep the overall difficulty (if measured in damage and hitpoints) the same, while providing new choices we haven't seen before. For example, one time you're asked to rescue the Damsel just like it is today, from a structure with the usual defenders. Another time, Zor undocks as you approach or start shooting the structure, takes the Damsel and microjumps (one time only) 100km away: forget the structure, you've got to stop Zor.

On the second question, I think new players should be able to get into most level 4's during their second month; a sense of progression and ability is important for retention; every month a new player has to decide if its worth it to keep paying.

The Burner missions provide great info up front so a player can make an informed choice about the (intense) difficulty, its a good template to follow for the most difficult content to help avoid morale-crushing losses. The other level 1-4 mission texts aren't nearly as helpful; most players are recommended to consult external mission reports. Marauders were overhauled (Bastion mode) with the realization that level 4's were too grindy, and here's the ship class players should aspire to fly, for best isk/hr.
mkint
#4 - 2017-02-14 02:57:30 UTC  |  Edited by: mkint
... Link removed or is my browser broken?

edit: ah, there we go. Thanks!

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

The Phynix
Phynician Shipyards
#5 - 2017-02-14 04:28:55 UTC  |  Edited by: The Phynix
Aryth brought up the topic of Shield Capitals and how there are issues with being extremely 
vulnerable to energy neutralizers. CCP said they would revisit it after releasing shield slaves. 
CCP said that they were also aware of application issues with Caldari weapon capitals. 


Edit: Sorry, missed it when I read through the first time and didnt come up under missiles <3 - any kind of roadmap on this?

Bobmon brought up the topic of capital ship movement via tethered structures. CCP 
responded that they're not happy with the current system, but it was again a matter of 
priorities compared to other work they needed to do.


Fairly disappointed in this response in all honesty, I'd like to see dev work go into making sure feature and content work and are balanced before deciding they're "good enough" and wandering away. I understand the reasoning, but it's pretty darn overpowered at the moment.
Sentient Blade
crisis atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#6 - 2017-02-14 06:42:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentient Blade
Quote:
Bobmon asked about the possibility of having two overview lists displayed at once, as this would help pilots maintain better situational awareness. 

CCP replied that while it was something to consider, but they also wanted to make sure that they didn't remove opportunities for skillful players to make a difference. 


Wut kind of nonsense is this...

The ability to cope with real-life eye strain and/or have more displayed at once because of monitor resolutions don't make a player good. The overview UI in a fleet fight, particularly small gang, is like trying to read a financial spreadsheet where the rows and values keep on changing order.

Give us the multi overview.

In fact, give us multi-multi overview... I know that I would straight away create 3 for logistics purposes... My fleet, enemy fleet, my logi.

Quote:
CCP Fozzie said they have some ideas and they did want to make a change, but also had a separate proposal for feedback: making it so that Rorquals could only PANIC when in proximity to an asteroid. The CSM was receptive 
to the idea.


In b4 100-rorqual hot-drops that can mine the entire asteroid belt in seconds so there's no roids nearby to allow panic to be activated.
Lustig Allas-Rui
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2017-02-14 10:00:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Lustig Allas-Rui
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2017-02-14 17:10:21 UTC
This new focus on AI, PvE content is frightening me ... do you guys even think before requesting new improved AI NPC which pose a threat to players? What I learned in the last couple of months, only a minority does PvE for fun only.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#9 - 2017-02-14 21:05:16 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
This new focus on AI, PvE content is frightening me ... do you guys even think before requesting new improved AI NPC which pose a threat to players? What I learned in the last couple of months, only a minority does PvE for fun only.


Because EVE PvE is not intrinsically fun. If it were, more people might look for it to be.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2017-02-14 21:52:38 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
This new focus on AI, PvE content is frightening me ... do you guys even think before requesting new improved AI NPC which pose a threat to players? What I learned in the last couple of months, only a minority does PvE for fun only.


Because EVE PvE is not intrinsically fun. If it were, more people might look for it to be.

The moment shooting rats in EvE becomes intrinsically fun, it end's to be a PvP game.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#11 - 2017-02-15 15:44:06 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
The moment shooting rats in EvE becomes intrinsically fun, it end's to be a PvP game.

The more ppl will do pve the more pvp targets you will have. I'm more concerned about all this NPE thing. It seems to not accomplish anything spectacular yet. After initial boom PCU is dropping, but hey new SKINs everywhere...

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2017-02-15 16:38:47 UTC
Good NPE is important, I didn't try the current version yet, so can't judge about.

My comment above was about that CCP has to put theme park like resources in making PVE intrinsically fun, including new content, stories every patch... also people are lazy, if the reward does not scale with the effort/risk, people will just do it in secure space for fun or don't do it at all because other stuff gives more ISK/h. Hence scaling the risk and complexity (aka "fun"), requires to scale the reward as well, which leads to balancing issues. See the new clever mining NPCs, only few bother, the reward does not justify the effort and risk. The drifter incursions are a second example, first people found clever strategies and the reward was too high, and when it was cut back, nobody bothered to run them anymore.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#13 - 2017-02-15 17:02:42 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:

Good NPE is important, I didn't try the current version yet, so can't judge about.

My comment above was about that CCP has to put theme park like resources in making PVE intrinsically fun, including new content, stories every patch... also people are lazy, if the reward does not scale with the effort/risk, people will just do it in secure space for fun or don't do it at all because other stuff gives more ISK/h. Hence scaling the risk and complexity (aka "fun"), requires to scale the reward as well, which leads to balancing issues. See the new clever mining NPCs, only few bother, the reward does not justify the effort and risk. The drifter incursions are a second example, first people found clever strategies and the reward was too high, and when it was cut back, nobody bothered to run them anymore.

Question is what is good NPE?

We don't need new NPC AI. I've wondering what is the purpose for those new mining fleets. We can interact with only by shooting them. What the point here? So miner gankers have more fun? It has nothing to do with improving any pve experience, apart from I can see the fleets on my d-scan sometimes.

We need something more than "warp to site, shoot trigger, loot, warp off". After 15 sites most of pve players will uninstall. Where is the fun? In unpredictability. In difficulty. I've done all kind of noncombat exploration sites, all types of 1-4 DED sites, most of unrated complexes. Loot table is good (most of it), but they are all the same. This is no game for pve oriented players. They will be bored too quickly.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2017-02-15 19:14:30 UTC
But why do you do PvE? What is your motivation? Would you still do it, when it's more exciting, but without any valuable reward for the time spent?

I'm my own NPC alt.

March rabbit
Mosquito Squadron
The-Culture
#15 - 2017-02-15 19:53:45 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
My comment above was about that CCP has to put theme park like resources in making PVE intrinsically fun, including new content, stories every patch... also people are lazy, if the reward does not scale with the effort/risk, people will just do it in secure space for fun...

Even in high-security space people doing PvE provide targets for someone (read: MTU killers/baiters, mission item stealers, suicide killers of blinged ships, etc...).

Tipa Riot wrote:
... or don't do it at all because other stuff gives more ISK/h. Hence scaling the risk and complexity (aka "fun"), requires to scale the reward as well, which leads to balancing issues.

Not sure if it is a problem though. Look at Burner missions.


Tipa Riot wrote:
See the new clever mining NPCs, only few bother, the reward does not justify the effort and risk. The drifter incursions are a second example, first people found clever strategies and the reward was too high, and when it was cut back, nobody bothered to run them anymore.

The problem as i see it: CCP cannot find sweet-spot (or they do not want to).They either make stupid AI low-reward NPCs (look at recent event) or totally overpowered NPCs with big rewards (Burners, i'm looking at you!). As result such things are not popular among 'casuals'.

I believe exploration is a perfect example of properly done PvE. It is totally PvE but to find it people go for low-sec and 0.0-space and even wormholes providing PvP.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2017-02-15 22:12:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
March rabbit wrote:

I believe exploration is a perfect example of properly done PvE. It is totally PvE but to find it people go for low-sec and 0.0-space and even wormholes providing PvP.

Yes, it's nice, but I would not call it PvE as it has more PvP elements, and exploration is ISK neutral. Other than rat bounties, mission / incursion payouts, which are faucets.

But also here you see clearly that not many do it just for fun ... only few bother with data sites, why? Because the reward is bad.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#17 - 2017-02-15 22:53:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeremiah Saken
Tipa Riot wrote:
But why do you do PvE? What is your motivation? Would you still do it, when it's more exciting, but without any valuable reward for the time spent?

Why do we play games? To be bored? It's doesn't matter how high reward would be if game become second job. If I'm willing to spent part of my free time to the game I want its mechanism to be entertaining. Exploration is all about rewards ofc, thats why we "exploring", to find some good stuff.
PI is good example, it may bring a lot of reward (ISK) but did you ever do it? I manage to do it for a week. Then I throw up and went back to exploration.

Edit: second good example are events. I do them for the rewards (booster mostly). Do I enjoy them? NO, because they are boring.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2017-02-16 14:22:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

PI is good example, it may bring a lot of reward (ISK) but did you ever do it?

I do and have a nice 5 planet setup in Nullsec doing R0->P2 with minimal maintenance effort.

My personal challenge and fun is to come out ahead in all kind of competitive situations using only one char, which also includes getting same/more while spending significantly less effort than others. Incursions are an example of an activity I tried and won't touch again ... it's tedious, attention consuming and gives not enough reward compared to what I can get by just chilling in Perimeter. What I liked was the in-official challenge to get hands on the Elite Drone AI chips when the price spiked, so I ran a lot of missions to get as much agents as possible locked into the specific mission to farm them for a week.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Zora Dijon
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#19 - 2017-02-17 16:39:12 UTC
Hi,

I am surprised that nobody has yet picked up on the potentially coming changes with a new forum. If i have understood correct CCP will give up (or will no be able) to binding a name in the forum to an actual character that belongs to the respective EVE account. I personally find it very undesirable not to be able to match a forum post to an in game character. That opens a lot of possible abuse situations. I hope the CSM will push to make sure that does not go ahead the way it looks in the minutes.

Have FuN!
Zora Dijon
Mikhem
Taxisk Unlimited
#20 - 2017-02-17 22:22:08 UTC
Quote:
CCP then explained that they are working on deciding on what they want the next
expansion to be.

Above quote is from CSM meeting minutes.
Is it just me thinking why are they so late thinking about next expansion...(?)

Mikhem

Link library to EVE music songs.

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