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Hybrid Guns Question

Author
Roman Manowar
House of Black Lanterns
Black Lanterns
#1 - 2016-08-11 22:13:12 UTC
Medium Auto Cannons at optimal chew things to shreds.
Medium Hybrid's at optimal miss my targets.

Why is this happening and how do I correct it?

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#2 - 2016-08-11 22:28:47 UTC
More information is needed.


What kinds of Autocannons are you using? Dual 180s, 220mm, 425mm?

What kinds of hybrid weapons are you using? Blasters or Railguns?
If Blasters, are you using Electrons, Ions, or Neutrons?
If Railguns, are you using Dual 150s, 200mm, or 250mm?

Are you using supporting modules? Things like Warp Scramblers, Stasis Webifiers, etc?

When you say "at optimal" are you referring to being within optimal range or exactly at the edge of optimal range?


And most importantly... is this for PvE or PvP?
Roman Manowar
House of Black Lanterns
Black Lanterns
#3 - 2016-08-11 22:41:56 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
More information is needed.


What kinds of Autocannons are you using? Dual 180s, 220mm, 425mm?

What kinds of hybrid weapons are you using? Blasters or Railguns?
If Blasters, are you using Electrons, Ions, or Neutrons?
If Railguns, are you using Dual 150s, 200mm, or 250mm?

Are you using supporting modules? Things like Warp Scramblers, Stasis Webifiers, etc?

When you say "at optimal" are you referring to being within optimal range or exactly at the edge of optimal range?


And most importantly... is this for PvE or PvP?


PVP. 425mm Autocannons hits fine. Heavy Ion Blaster doesn't hit. I'm just within optimal range. Using scrambler and statis web.
My motion prediction is at 4.

The ship with autocannons has 2 Tracking Enhancers. maybe that's why?
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#4 - 2016-08-11 22:48:36 UTC
what are you flying and what are you shooting at, and how fast are both you and it moving
Roman Manowar
House of Black Lanterns
Black Lanterns
#5 - 2016-08-11 22:54:25 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
what are you flying and what are you shooting at, and how fast are both you and it moving


holy balls man, I need to know math to kill things in here? I thought you were flying the stripper hauler?
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#6 - 2016-08-11 22:57:57 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
The Tracking Enhancers are probably the reason for the better tracking on the Autocannons. They increase optimal range, falloff range, and tracking.

Also...

- if you are orbiting your target at a fast speed, you may want to slow down a bit. You can track a target better if the relative velocity between you and the target is lower (see: try to align your trajectory so that it is parallel with the target's).

- sometimes it is better to attack at the edge of optimal range. By increasing distance, you can lower the relative velocity between you and the target.

- Do not be afraid of fighting in Falloff range. You may deal less raw damage (due to Falloff penalties), but the increased range can possibly increase the amount of damage applied (see: the damage that does get through the Falloff penalties may actually reach the target more often).

- if the Tracking Enhancers are not an option... applying two Stasis Webifiers can help.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#7 - 2016-08-11 23:04:06 UTC
Roman Manowar wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
what are you flying and what are you shooting at, and how fast are both you and it moving


holy balls man, I need to know math to kill things in here? I thought you were flying the stripper hauler?

You need to know math to ascertain the probability of it getting blown up.

Or the chances of getting some of the cargo knocked up.Blink
Memphis Baas
#8 - 2016-08-11 23:06:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
Tracking is always a problem with short range weapons, and the shorter the range, the worse the problem is. So blasters have the shortest range, autocannons next, and pulse lasers are almost medium range weapons.

Guns used to display a tracking value (in radians per second), that was directly comparable to a column you can enable in the overview (angular velocity), but CCP in their infinite wisdom decided a few months ago to remove that value from the gun stats and enable it with a composite value that includes the gun size. Stupid.

Anyway, tracking enhancers, stay still, and webify the target so it stays still too. As indicated by Shah above.

Or use the slightly smaller blasters appropriate for your ship class, as they track slightly better. Less damage though. But now is a good time to learn about damage application (how much of it actually lands). Sometimes what's best on paper is different than what's best in-game.

EDIT: And yeah, don't be afraid to operate outside the optimal range. At optimal + falloff you're doing half damage, at optimal + 2*falloff you're doing 0. So you can go slightly past optimal without much loss, if it applies better due to tracking. Autocannons actually are designed to operate into falloff; somebody plotted the damage curve due to tracking and falloff distance and the peak was about 10% into falloff.
Cara Forelli
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#9 - 2016-08-11 23:07:19 UTC
Two things go into damage application, range and tracking.

Optimal tells you the maximum possible damage due to range only. Beyond that it will start to decrease due to range.

However damage can also be reduced if you can't track the target. Targets that are closer/faster are harder to track. That means sometimes you'll actually get more damage outside your optimal range in that sweet spot where you can actually track the target but haven't lost too much damage due to range yet.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament

Memphis Baas
#10 - 2016-08-11 23:11:59 UTC
The tracking math, and also the signature math (size of the target vs. caliber of your guns) are artificial game systems designed to allow frigates to survive a battleship's guns, which would otherwise one-shot them. So newbies (in large numbers) can take out a veteran.

Well, except that there are other counters to frigates (drones, energy neutralizing, smartbombs), so it actually not so easy.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2016-08-11 23:49:32 UTC
Roman Manowar wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
what are you flying and what are you shooting at, and how fast are both you and it moving


holy balls man, I need to know math to kill things in here? I thought you were flying the stripper hauler?

you don't need to know any math. Just the basics on how tracking works.

There are a lot of variables in this game and tbh none of the info Ralph asked for had anything to do with math, just some context of the situation.
Roman Manowar
House of Black Lanterns
Black Lanterns
#12 - 2016-08-12 00:14:17 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Roman Manowar wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
what are you flying and what are you shooting at, and how fast are both you and it moving


holy balls man, I need to know math to kill things in here? I thought you were flying the stripper hauler?

you don't need to know any math. Just the basics on how tracking works.

There are a lot of variables in this game and tbh none of the info Ralph asked for had anything to do with math, just some context of the situation.

I just assumed if I wasn't hitting something below my guns resolution, and then having to take into account my speed, and/or another persons speed.. that there must be some funky math calculations needed to determine the correct tracking to hit.
Brynjard
The Squirrel Academy
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#13 - 2016-08-12 01:06:06 UTC
It's not directly math.
Just remember it's easier to hit a BS than a Frigat witht those guns.
If the frigat is speed tanking you. Meaning it's flying "under" your guns. Your guns cannot track it. That is how a frigate can kill a BS

Some T1 projectile ammo gives tracking speed bonus(40%). T1 Hybrid doesn't.
40% tracking bonus is a major bonus.

Note - right tool for the right type of job - Unless you adjust your tools.
Some crazy man said; "you don't shoot sparrow with a cannon".
He did lot of bad things, but that quote is the truth, even in space :)

Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#14 - 2016-08-12 01:13:12 UTC
Roman Manowar wrote:
that there must be some funky math calculations needed to determine the correct tracking to hit.

i am horrificaly dyslexcic but i think of it like this
if im going like neaaaaarmand theyr going like neaaaaarm , then my tracking will suck
unless we are going like neaaaaarm in the same direction then i can hit because our neaaaaarm cancels the others out.
if im just puttering about then i might hit but their neaaaaarm is still an issue,
likewise if they are puttering about but im like neaaaaarm then i run into the same issue.

Big smile
Roman Manowar
House of Black Lanterns
Black Lanterns
#15 - 2016-08-12 02:02:50 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Roman Manowar wrote:
that there must be some funky math calculations needed to determine the correct tracking to hit.

i am horrificaly dyslexcic but i think of it like this
if im going like neaaaaarmand theyr going like neaaaaarm , then my tracking will suck
unless we are going like neaaaaarm in the same direction then i can hit because our neaaaaarm cancels the others out.
if im just puttering about then i might hit but their neaaaaarm is still an issue,
likewise if they are puttering about but im like neaaaaarm then i run into the same issue.

Big smile


That actually made sense lol. *pours you a pint*
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#16 - 2016-08-12 02:04:47 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Roman Manowar wrote:
that there must be some funky math calculations needed to determine the correct tracking to hit.

i am horrificaly dyslexcic but i think of it like this
if im going like neaaaaarmand theyr going like neaaaaarm , then my tracking will suck
unless we are going like neaaaaarm in the same direction then i can hit because our neaaaaarm cancels the others out.
if im just puttering about then i might hit but their neaaaaarm is still an issue,
likewise if they are puttering about but im like neaaaaarm then i run into the same issue.

Big smile

hahahahahahahaha
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#17 - 2016-08-12 09:30:53 UTC
Roman Manowar wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Roman Manowar wrote:
that there must be some funky math calculations needed to determine the correct tracking to hit.

i am horrificaly dyslexcic but i think of it like this
if im going like neaaaaarmand theyr going like neaaaaarm , then my tracking will suck
unless we are going like neaaaaarm in the same direction then i can hit because our neaaaaarm cancels the others out.
if im just puttering about then i might hit but their neaaaaarm is still an issue,
likewise if they are puttering about but im like neaaaaarm then i run into the same issue.

Big smile


That actually made sense lol. *pours you a pint*

Sláinte, i should teach drunk eve comprehention
Keno Skir
#18 - 2016-08-12 12:52:09 UTC
The duel tracking enhancers on the Stabber made your auto's seem like they were way faster tracking than the blasters on the Vigi. Also you get more playroom in falloff on the autocannons, whereas as small deviation in range with blasters can put you all the way to the back of falloff range reducing hit quality and dps overall. 2 tracking enhancers on the Vigi will make things similar but you will sacrifice tank.
Memphis Baas
#19 - 2016-08-12 13:03:17 UTC
It's always about sacrificing something.
Paranoid Loyd
#20 - 2016-08-12 14:41:34 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Roman Manowar wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Roman Manowar wrote:
that there must be some funky math calculations needed to determine the correct tracking to hit.

i am horrificaly dyslexcic but i think of it like this
if im going like neaaaaarmand theyr going like neaaaaarm , then my tracking will suck
unless we are going like neaaaaarm in the same direction then i can hit because our neaaaaarm cancels the others out.
if im just puttering about then i might hit but their neaaaaarm is still an issue,
likewise if they are puttering about but im like neaaaaarm then i run into the same issue.

Big smile


That actually made sense lol. *pours you a pint*

Sláinte, i should teach drunk eve comprehention

I thought thats what you've been doing this whole time. Blink

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

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