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Hybrid Guns Question

Author
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#21 - 2016-08-12 14:48:42 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Roman Manowar wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Roman Manowar wrote:
that there must be some funky math calculations needed to determine the correct tracking to hit.

i am horrificaly dyslexcic but i think of it like this
if im going like neaaaaarmand theyr going like neaaaaarm , then my tracking will suck
unless we are going like neaaaaarm in the same direction then i can hit because our neaaaaarm cancels the others out.
if im just puttering about then i might hit but their neaaaaarm is still an issue,
likewise if they are puttering about but im like neaaaaarm then i run into the same issue.

Big smile


That actually made sense lol. *pours you a pint*

Sláinte, i should teach drunk eve comprehention

I thought thats what you've been doing this whole time. Blink

you'r right ... then why the **** aint i getting paid for this ****!
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#22 - 2016-08-12 16:58:43 UTC
Because under that brusque, curmudgeonny demeanor Ralph... you have a soft spot for new players and get off from the warm fuzzies like the rest of us.

But shhhhhhhhhhhh... I will not tell.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2016-08-12 19:39:51 UTC
To OP: if you don't hit things, did you try to 'keep at range' rather than zip around like a madman? You're brawling anyway, with blasters you can practically just hit "approach" cause nothing will last long under those guns anyway.
Roman Manowar
House of Black Lanterns
Black Lanterns
#24 - 2016-08-12 20:03:44 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
To OP: if you don't hit things, did you try to 'keep at range' rather than zip around like a madman? You're brawling anyway, with blasters you can practically just hit "approach" cause nothing will last long under those guns anyway.


Actually, I tried the "keep at range" and It helped. Also just approaching seemed to help too.
thanks!

Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2016-08-12 21:00:00 UTC
Alright! That's good, we're getting somewhere.

There is however one thing I find somewhat peculiar: blasters are supposed to track BETTER than autocannons, not the other way around. Would you please verify you were looking at optimal range of your guns with the ammo loaded (antimatter for example cuts optimal in half), on your ship, with your skills taken into account?

Blaster range is abyssmal but the tracking is excellent, therefore I somehow suspect you WERE out of range. Approaching obviously fixes both tracking and range issues, but I'd like to narrow it down to just one of those.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2016-08-12 21:14:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Brokk Witgenstein
Oh well. Since I feel like helping ya out, I'll tell you some more about those guns.

First off, yes the tracking enhancers definitely help (for reasons stated in this thread earlier). If you cannot spare the lowslot however, you can achieve the same with a rig.

Secondly, no tracking enhancer nor tracking computer nor rig should be required to hit with a blaster at point-blank range. I strongly suspect you are trying to shoot something that is smaller than you are. This is where signature radius comes in: the smaller a target is, the harder it is to hit. Also the faster it is moving relative to your position (perpendicular), the harder it is to hit.

Both are multiplied, as represented by the Accuracy Score rating on your gun. A small blaster, intended to shoot frigates and destroyers, will have a MUCH higher rating than a medium gun intended to blast cruisers and battlecruisers.

Now, you can compare the accuracy of the blaster with your favourite autocannon (a wise choice I might add LOL) BUT it won't tell you the whole story: the blaster will indeed hit (apply) better than an autocannon ... at the same range. Since the optimal range is so much smaller, however, you'd need to get closer to the target and any transversal movement you and your enemy perform will negatively affect accuracy. (the movement is measures in angle/second -- the close you get, the higher the angular velocity)

This is why keeping at range or approaching helps: it takes YOUR movement out of the equation and only leaves your enemy's perpendicular movement. Which would be negligible because you mentioned scram+web -- he'll be doing like a 150 m/sec at most right?

There are some measures you can take to improve your ability to hit stuff:
(1) use a DUAL web. Your target won't be going past 70 m/sec, sometimes even less; so tracking will be no problem no matter what.
(2) improve your tracking/optimal by fitting rigs or tracking enhancers (you figured this one out already)
(3) increase the target's signature radius by applying a Target Painter. I wouldn't combine long-range paint with short-range armament however, so this is a moot point for you.
(4) use smaller guns. Just like autocannons come in 425 / 220 / 180 mms, so too are there three kinds of blasters. The one with the highest accuracy applies damage best to small targets. The one with the lowest accuracy applies worse to small targets but makes bigger holes in large targets where sigradius is a non-issue.

Keep me posted on your progress, and good luck!
Astra Starshine
New Eden Crab Syndicate
#27 - 2016-08-12 22:43:15 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:

There are some measures you can take to improve your ability to hit stuff:
(1) use a DUAL web. Your target won't be going past 70 m/sec, sometimes even less; so tracking will be no problem no matter what.
(2) improve your tracking/optimal by fitting rigs or tracking enhancers (you figured this one out already)
(3) increase the target's signature radius by applying a Target Painter. I wouldn't combine long-range paint with short-range armament however, so this is a moot point for you.
(4) use smaller guns. Just like autocannons come in 425 / 220 / 180 mms, so too are there three kinds of blasters. The one with the highest accuracy applies damage best to small targets. The one with the lowest accuracy applies worse to small targets but makes bigger holes in large targets where sigradius is a non-issue.

Keep me posted on your progress, and good luck!


So my Stabber Fleet Issue with dual webs, scram and 220mm ac will catch and blow holes through things, but if I swap out to 425mm, my target sized ships change?
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2016-08-12 23:00:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Brokk Witgenstein
Nah. dualwebs on a stabber will hit anything. Go for 425s (if powergrid permits)

if A = differences in Sigradius vs. what your guns can deliver
and B = difference in angular velocity vs. what your guns can deliver,
then chance to hit is A x B.

(A x B happens to be your weapon's accuracy score).

Meaning that if you solve B (by applying dual webs the target will barely move), the A factor won't matter. Large guns for example can and will blap very small frigates IF THOSE FRIGS AREN'T MOVING.

You only need to take care of one of those two to start hitting things: either get rid of the angular velocity, or get rid of the tiny sig (by using smaller guns or targetpainting).

Does that make sense?


Basically, you only want to use less than the biggest guns if (a) tracking is really an issue, as would be the case on a battleship trying to shoot cruisers, or (b) you need too many engineering mods to make it all fit.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#29 - 2016-08-12 23:19:42 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Astra Starshine wrote:
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:

There are some measures you can take to improve your ability to hit stuff:
(1) use a DUAL web. Your target won't be going past 70 m/sec, sometimes even less; so tracking will be no problem no matter what.
(2) improve your tracking/optimal by fitting rigs or tracking enhancers (you figured this one out already)
(3) increase the target's signature radius by applying a Target Painter. I wouldn't combine long-range paint with short-range armament however, so this is a moot point for you.
(4) use smaller guns. Just like autocannons come in 425 / 220 / 180 mms, so too are there three kinds of blasters. The one with the highest accuracy applies damage best to small targets. The one with the lowest accuracy applies worse to small targets but makes bigger holes in large targets where sigradius is a non-issue.

Keep me posted on your progress, and good luck!


So my Stabber Fleet Issue with dual webs, scram and 220mm ac will catch and blow holes through things, but if I swap out to 425mm, my target sized ships change?

Euuhhhhh... let me explain a bit.

There are generally 4 aspects you have to keep in mind when using turrets.

Range: This is pretty easy. Within optimal range you can potentially deal 100% damage to a target. In Falloff range you can still deal damage, but there is a damage reduction penalty (see: halfway into Falloff range there is a 50% damage reduction penalty).

Tracking: This is how fast a weapon can keep up with a target. Smaller sized guns (both in overall class and in-class) have better tracking.

Speed / Trajectory: This goes hand-in-hand with Tracking. As I mentioned before, if you can align your Trajectory and Speed as close as possible to your target's the greater the odds of hitting a target (which goes back to Tracking, which decides how close in Speed / Trajectory you have to be).

Signature Radius: Every ship has a "sensor footprint" which is sized anywhere between 40m (Frigate) to 400m+ (Battleship+). All turrets have a certain number called "Signature Resolution" which decides how much damage it can potentially deal against what size Signature Radius.
If the Sig Radius of a ship is equal or larger than the Sig Resolution of the turret, it will potentially deal full damage. If lower, then a damage reduction penalty is applied.


To put it simply...

If you can't hit a target, you need to...

- align your speed trajectory more closely (to reduce relative velocity between you and the target)
- pull more range (to reduce relative velocity between you and the target)
- make your target slower (see: Stasis Webs)
- make your target "bigger" (see: Target Painters)
- use "smaller" guns (see: give up "raw" damage potential to increase the "margin of error" for all of the above, thus increasing "applied" damage)
- some combination of all of the above.


tldr: Experiment with things. Using turrets effectively is more of an art than a cut-and-dry science.
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
Apocalypse Now.
#30 - 2016-08-12 23:38:38 UTC
Everything that has been advised here has been pretty much spot on. I'm only going to chime in some experiences I've run across shooting PvE Rails now Blasters ON THE SAME SHIP.

When you are 'at the edge' of optimum, you get better to hit chances for the reasons stated but you need to consider the actual DPS you are cranking out at that range. It might be lower than Rails firing close in ammo like antimatter or Void. If you find that to be the case then you might get better results with rails at the same range, however Rails kind of go from short medium to really long.

Most of my blaster fit ships speed/sig tank. Even my ENI speed/sig tanks larger NPC ships. My Comet can speed/sig tank anything above a Frigate and below a Battleship (it still does the battleship but it can't do enough DPS If the ship has a high passive tank or active tank). I orbit my ENI at 1000 -2500m depending on the target (the smaller the closer the orbit) and my Comet at 500 - 1000m. So that's WAAAAY below rail capability.

In the end, it's really about a balance of offense and defense. If you are at the edge of optimum and getting plastered, move in a little closer and see if they miss more. You might miss more, but if they aren't hitting you then hitting at all above what they can tank means you will win eventually.

You can also improve your blasters with RIG fitting. You can use a tracking enhancer with a script to really boost your tracking ability if you have the fit slots to handle a dedicated unit like that. Dual web also works but sucks more power. Don't forget, you can be webbed too so a couple of ships tying each other down is a slugfest and if you aren't in optimal and your target is, guess who likely wins close fights?
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2016-08-12 23:51:54 UTC
One other thing that came to mind regarding OP's issue ...

it is possible you're not experiencing a tracking or range problem, but that you're witnessing RESISTS.
Some ships are very resistant to the thermal damage output of a blaster, whereas explosive Autocannons punch right in their nickers. (think Enyo for example - the same holds true for Amarr lasers trying to hit a minmatar Wolf).

Something to consider...
Astra Starshine
New Eden Crab Syndicate
#32 - 2016-08-12 23:53:12 UTC
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
Everything that has been advised here has been pretty much spot on. I'm only going to chime in some experiences I've run across shooting PvE Rails now Blasters ON THE SAME SHIP.

When you are 'at the edge' of optimum, you get better to hit chances for the reasons stated but you need to consider the actual DPS you are cranking out at that range. It might be lower than Rails firing close in ammo like antimatter or Void. If you find that to be the case then you might get better results with rails at the same range, however Rails kind of go from short medium to really long.

Most of my blaster fit ships speed/sig tank. Even my ENI speed/sig tanks larger NPC ships. My Comet can speed/sig tank anything above a Frigate and below a Battleship (it still does the battleship but it can't do enough DPS If the ship has a high passive tank or active tank). I orbit my ENI at 1000 -2500m depending on the target (the smaller the closer the orbit) and my Comet at 500 - 1000m. So that's WAAAAY below rail capability.

In the end, it's really about a balance of offense and defense. If you are at the edge of optimum and getting plastered, move in a little closer and see if they miss more. You might miss more, but if they aren't hitting you then hitting at all above what they can tank means you will win eventually.

You can also improve your blasters with RIG fitting. You can use a tracking enhancer with a script to really boost your tracking ability if you have the fit slots to handle a dedicated unit like that. Dual web also works but sucks more power. Don't forget, you can be webbed too so a couple of ships tying each other down is a slugfest and if you aren't in optimal and your target is, guess who likely wins close fights?


It seems like Scram kiters with dual webs and DPS can challenge bigger sized ships and be pretty effective? say a comet, arty firetail, inskur.. ? because you are slowing the targets down with webs and dictating range. So it's not always biggest ship and guns that dominate.
Wanda Fayne
#33 - 2016-08-13 09:31:48 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
It's always about sacrificing something.


Or someoneBlink

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
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