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Incoming titan adjustments

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Acwron
Meet The Fockers
#2381 - 2012-03-16 08:50:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Acwron
Let me explain this in a very simple way :

Nerfing Titan and cap ships that bad, forces a high skilled player to go back to subcap ships. No reason to fly again a cap ship as long as they are nerfed big time. A high skilled player already been thru sub capital skills and prolly learned most of them. Next challenge for him is a capital ship. No challenge anymore now.

Titans are nothing without support, a single interdictor can nail him down forever. A 30 mil ship with fit included keeps a 100 bill ship in place. A few mil SP against 100+ mil SP.

A titan in the field is tank fitted, Anyone that has a titan knows that hits like shite without tracking and damage mods. Either you tank and have 20-30 mil EHP, either you go tracking/damage and have 3-4 mil EHP. I guess just a few would risk a titan to go in the field with 3-4 mil EHP, that's double a dread has. Dread = ~2,5 bil Titan = ~100 bil not including the fit.

A dread is inflicting more damage than a Titan tracking and damage fitted ! What to say about a tanked Titan
I can't see where is the threat.

Goons want people to go back to T1 frigates ? Those times are past long time ago. They just need to adapt and fight instead of whining like retards. This is not 2003, it's 2012, it's absolutely normal to have high end characters/ships and fight with them.

Nerfing Titans will give goons a big advantage as they can put up 1.000 ships or more. Where's the small alliances advantage? There's none, don't bother to look. On the contrary...

You don't need to be a scientist and fill the post with numbers and equations. You just need to play the game to see how it is

You are just killing alot of people's dream. To fly the mother of all ships.
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2382 - 2012-03-16 09:25:06 UTC
Acwron wrote:
You are just killing alot of people's dream. To fly the mother of all ships.


My dream is for a healthy and well balanced EvE. My dream is more important than yours because you are stupid.
Acwron
Meet The Fockers
#2383 - 2012-03-16 09:32:20 UTC
Yeep wrote:
Acwron wrote:
You are just killing alot of people's dream. To fly the mother of all ships.


My dream is for a healthy and well balanced EvE. My dream is more important than yours because you are stupid.


I could swear it's the other way around. In my world, you're the stupid one. Eve(rything) is relative.
GeneralDisturbed
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2384 - 2012-03-16 09:56:05 UTC
Acwron wrote:
Yeep wrote:
Acwron wrote:
You are just killing alot of people's dream. To fly the mother of all ships.


My dream is for a healthy and well balanced EvE. My dream is more important than yours because you are stupid.


I could swear it's the other way around. In my world, you're the stupid one. Eve(rything) is relative.


Unfortunately for you, my world is the one where CCP, the CSM, and the majority of the playerbase resides. So nerfs ahoy.
Kitfox Mikakka
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2385 - 2012-03-16 10:22:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kitfox Mikakka
Acwron wrote:
Let me explain this in a very simple way :

Nerfing Titan and cap ships that bad, forces a high skilled player to go back to subcap ships. No reason to fly again a cap ship as long as they are nerfed big time. A high skilled player already been thru sub capital skills and prolly learned most of them. Next challenge for him is a capital ship. No challenge anymore now.

Titans are nothing without support, a single interdictor can nail him down forever. A 30 mil ship with fit included keeps a 100 bill ship in place. A few mil SP against 100+ mil SP.

A titan in the field is tank fitted, Anyone that has a titan knows that hits like shite without tracking and damage mods. Either you tank and have 20-30 mil EHP, either you go tracking/damage and have 3-4 mil EHP. I guess just a few would risk a titan to go in the field with 3-4 mil EHP, that's double a dread has. Dread = ~2,5 bil Titan = ~100 bil not including the fit.

A dread is inflicting more damage than a Titan tracking and damage fitted ! What to say about a tanked Titan
I can't see where is the threat.

Goons want people to go back to T1 frigates ? Those times are past long time ago. They just need to adapt and fight instead of whining like retards. This is not 2003, it's 2012, it's absolutely normal to have high end characters/ships and fight with them.

Nerfing Titans will give goons a big advantage as they can put up 1.000 ships or more. Where's the small alliances advantage? There's none, don't bother to look. On the contrary...

You don't need to be a scientist and fill the post with numbers and equations. You just need to play the game to see how it is

You are just killing alot of people's dream. To fly the mother of all ships.


Believe it or not the claims of us throwing out 1k+ ships is dumb as hell, let alone the 1600 that was being tossed around earlier. That sorta **** is rare as hell. Sure, 1 dictor locks down 1 titan forever. The problem is that, at this point, with the massive levels of Titan proliferation occurring in Null-Sec among all major alliances, nobody throws down Just One Titan. They thrown down a group, and that group pops apart, and then the 2, 3, 4 dictors on each Titan get torn apart because it's impossible to keep transversal against a dozen or more spread out Titans. Once you've hit that critical mass of Titans, there is more or less no possible way to reasonably defeat them but to throw down More Supercapitals. And once that battle of More Supercapitals begins, it entirely cuts those of us who can't fly supercaps out of the fight, more or less. It goes from cool battles of 500+ on each side to 30, 40, 50 people blapping each other with their huge space penises, and that sucks **** for those of us not in a space penis, which is the vast majority of the game.

CCP got to see this sort of insanity themselves, and they're realizing it really is a problem that can't be ignored for much longer. And my dream sure as hell isn't to fly one of these Super Star Destroyer space penises, my dream is to be able to suicide frigs into them A-wing style. And I sure as hell ain't gonna get that dream to come true, now am I?
Sentinel Eeex
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2386 - 2012-03-16 11:23:55 UTC
Acwron wrote:
Let me explain this in a very simple way :

Nerfing Titan and cap ships that bad, forces a high skilled player to go back to subcap ships. No reason to fly again a cap ship as long as they are nerfed big time. A high skilled player already been thru sub capital skills and prolly learned most of them. Next challenge for him is a capital ship. No challenge anymore now.

Titans are nothing without support, a single interdictor can nail him down forever. A 30 mil ship with fit included keeps a 100 bill ship in place. A few mil SP against 100+ mil SP.

A titan in the field is tank fitted, Anyone that has a titan knows that hits like shite without tracking and damage mods. Either you tank and have 20-30 mil EHP, either you go tracking/damage and have 3-4 mil EHP. I guess just a few would risk a titan to go in the field with 3-4 mil EHP, that's double a dread has. Dread = ~2,5 bil Titan = ~100 bil not including the fit.

A dread is inflicting more damage than a Titan tracking and damage fitted ! What to say about a tanked Titan
I can't see where is the threat.

Goons want people to go back to T1 frigates ? Those times are past long time ago. They just need to adapt and fight instead of whining like retards. This is not 2003, it's 2012, it's absolutely normal to have high end characters/ships and fight with them.

Nerfing Titans will give goons a big advantage as they can put up 1.000 ships or more. Where's the small alliances advantage? There's none, don't bother to look. On the contrary...

You don't need to be a scientist and fill the post with numbers and equations. You just need to play the game to see how it is

You are just killing alot of people's dream. To fly the mother of all ships.


If this a simple explanation, I am horrified to think how more comprehensive explanation would look like.

Also, noone is preventing you from flying 'the mother of all ships'. Right-click, board, fly.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2387 - 2012-03-16 11:23:56 UTC
Acwron wrote:
A titan in the field is tank fitted, Anyone that has a titan knows that hits like shite without tracking and damage mods. Either you tank and have 20-30 mil EHP, either you go tracking/damage and have 3-4 mil EHP. I guess just a few would risk a titan to go in the field with 3-4 mil EHP, that's double a dread has. Dread = ~2,5 bil Titan = ~100 bil not including the fit.


sorry that you apparently fly a T1 rigged ragnarok with t2 tank mods lma0

also wow you're in a space holding alliance and you pay 100b for a titan, just wow

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Sentinel Eeex
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2388 - 2012-03-16 11:27:09 UTC
Acwron wrote:
Dread = ~2,5 bil Titan = ~100 bil not including the fit.


Oh, hahaha, I missed this.

Would you like to buy few Titans for ~100bil each?

No fitings, of course Smile
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2389 - 2012-03-16 11:29:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Marzetti
Aurora B wrote:
I see 110 pages of CFC nerdrage, 2 pages of tears, 7 pages of some kind of argumentation of this issue.


You posters from FinFleet, you just type words without thinking about what they actually mean, don't you? I mean, think about it, who has the nerdrage here?

Quote:
Even those tears are because ccp's evil dead zombie arm is trying to do open brain surgery.


It's you. You have the nerdrage.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2390 - 2012-03-16 11:32:35 UTC
Aurora B wrote:
[quote=Roland Hova]I see 110 pages of CFC nerdrage


yes we're very, very angry about the fact that we will no longer murder raiden subcaps with titans in eurotime

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Cyaron wars
Academia RED HOT Corporation
#2391 - 2012-03-16 11:38:17 UTC
Can we balance artillery as well?
Jacob Kelbrand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2392 - 2012-03-16 11:44:00 UTC
This joy I'm feeling
Titan fans are suffering
That's schadenfreude
Annabell Prime
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2393 - 2012-03-16 12:04:57 UTC
Honestly i don't think this is the "right" way to fix it.

The titans should present a viable threat to an enemy fleet.


with this said i think what the game is missing is A combat link instead that promotes fleets of beeing balanced.
(Give bonus to fleet on composition of fleet)

so that the number of caps give a bonus to subcaps and subcaps gives a bonus to capital ships.

only then will we lose the big blobbs of ship type XX with dominate the battlefield today.

when its benefical to have several kinds of ship on the field in the fleet the FC will build there fleet with this in mind.

what if a Two titans supported by 20 Subcap ships was more efficent then 5 titans due to the bonuses they present to each other.


Noone enjoys beeing on the reciving end of big nerfs and i my self think tracking titans is pretty fine ...

as long as your not allowed to switch modules in combat as i have no problem with a ship that drop survivability for the ability to hit subcaps .....

and i realy want a ship BS size with low signature radius with XL size weapons that when they got the numbers realy can make a wreck of a Capital ship. make them hard for the capitals to hit and for subcaps easy to hit. and voila you got a Cap killer that cant survive in a subcap enviroment.

Dr 0wnage
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2394 - 2012-03-16 12:26:58 UTC
OK, i seriously just spent the past few hours reading through every page of this post. Granted i skimmed a good portion of it or i think id still be somewhere on page 40... anyway all i see are bitching and whining from both sides of this argument and only a handful of actual real constructive posts. I think Shadoo of all damn people has contributed the most to this thread...

SO EVERYBODY, stop a minute and take a look at the situation that has caused this issue. Quite simply its the imbalance between titans and subcaps. Well, i have news that everyone doesn't seem to know... YOU CAN'T BALANCE A 90B ISK SHIP AGAINST A 60M OR 200M ISK SHIP! You just can't do it, it doesn't work! Havn't we figured that out by now?? Titans will NEVER be balanced against battleships!!

The problem is not the titans, its the broken capital ships that are supposed to fill the gap between them and the subs. The food chain that exists in EVE works well all the way up until you hit capital ships. Carriers and Dreads are very simply ineffective against sub-capital fleets. THIS is where the imbalance is! You don't have to be a damn rocket scientist to see it! We admit there's a problem but we don't want to change our current paradigm to fix it.

Lets, just for the sake of argument, say we move dreads and carriers into the anti-sub role. If they can effectively kill supcap fleets then what is their counter? Well supers of course as they can effectively kill cap fleets. But what can kill the super fleet? After some of these changes in the OP, a sub fleet! Rock, Paper, Siscors! ie. balance!!!

There are probably 100 ways to go about this but consider this solution:

Offensive and Defensive scripts for Siege and Triage modules (only changeable while not active)

Offensive Siege script +50% tracking, +50% falloff
Defensive Siege script +25% to all resist?
Offensive Triage script +100% to fighter dmg (allows drones to be launched)
Defensive Triage script + some bonus i can't think of right now

Obviously im focusing on the offensive potential of these scripts to prove a point which is how we can very easily make these ships quite formidable against a sub-cap only fleet. With each ship type having a defined role and counter we will inevitably see more well rounded fleets being fielded.

/me is done beating the dead horse for now...
-Doc
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2395 - 2012-03-16 12:39:10 UTC
Annabell Prime wrote:
Honestly i don't think this is the "right" way to fix it.

The titans should present a viable threat to an enemy fleet.


with this said i think what the game is missing is A combat link instead that promotes fleets of beeing balanced.
(Give bonus to fleet on composition of fleet)

so that the number of caps give a bonus to subcaps and subcaps gives a bonus to capital ships.

only then will we lose the big blobbs of ship type XX with dominate the battlefield today.

when its benefical to have several kinds of ship on the field in the fleet the FC will build there fleet with this in mind.

what if a Two titans supported by 20 Subcap ships was more efficent then 5 titans due to the bonuses they present to each other.


Noone enjoys beeing on the reciving end of big nerfs and i my self think tracking titans is pretty fine ...

as long as your not allowed to switch modules in combat as i have no problem with a ship that drop survivability for the ability to hit subcaps .....

and i realy want a ship BS size with low signature radius with XL size weapons that when they got the numbers realy can make a wreck of a Capital ship. make them hard for the capitals to hit and for subcaps easy to hit. and voila you got a Cap killer that cant survive in a subcap enviroment.



thank you for your insights from the hisec veldspar belt

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Aurora B
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2396 - 2012-03-16 13:01:33 UTC
Dr 0wnage wrote:
OK, i seriously just spent the past few hours reading through every page of this post. Granted i skimmed a good portion of it or i think id still be somewhere on page 40... anyway all i see are bitching and whining from both sides of this argument and only a handful of actual real constructive posts. I think Shadoo of all damn people has contributed the most to this thread...

SO EVERYBODY, stop a minute and take a look at the situation that has caused this issue. Quite simply its the imbalance between titans and subcaps. Well, i have news that everyone doesn't seem to know... YOU CAN'T BALANCE A 90B ISK SHIP AGAINST A 60M OR 200M ISK SHIP! You just can't do it, it doesn't work! Havn't we figured that out by now?? Titans will NEVER be balanced against battleships!!

The problem is not the titans, its the broken capital ships that are supposed to fill the gap between them and the subs. The food chain that exists in EVE works well all the way up until you hit capital ships. Carriers and Dreads are very simply ineffective against sub-capital fleets. THIS is where the imbalance is! You don't have to be a damn rocket scientist to see it! We admit there's a problem but we don't want to change our current paradigm to fix it.

Lets, just for the sake of argument, say we move dreads and carriers into the anti-sub role. If they can effectively kill supcap fleets then what is their counter? Well supers of course as they can effectively kill cap fleets. But what can kill the super fleet? After some of these changes in the OP, a sub fleet! Rock, Paper, Siscors! ie. balance!!!

There are probably 100 ways to go about this but consider this solution:

Offensive and Defensive scripts for Siege and Triage modules (only changeable while not active)

Offensive Siege script +50% tracking, +50% falloff
Defensive Siege script +25% to all resist?
Offensive Triage script +100% to fighter dmg (allows drones to be launched)
Defensive Triage script + some bonus i can't think of right now

Obviously im focusing on the offensive potential of these scripts to prove a point which is how we can very easily make these ships quite formidable against a sub-cap only fleet. With each ship type having a defined role and counter we will inevitably see more well rounded fleets being fielded.

/me is done beating the dead horse for now...
-Doc


You are correct ont the biggest problem issue. Titans need tweaking/reworking but dreads (+carriers) need the most work.
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2397 - 2012-03-16 13:17:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Yeep
Aurora B wrote:
Dr 0wnage wrote:
stupid


You are correct ont the biggest problem issue. Titans need tweaking/reworking but dreads (+carriers) need the most work.


Yes you're right, the real problem is not that Titan's can destroy subcap fleets, its that dreads and carriers can't.
Aurora B
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2398 - 2012-03-16 13:27:55 UTC
Yeep wrote:
Aurora B wrote:
Dr 0wnage wrote:
stupid


You are correct ont the biggest problem issue. Titans need tweaking/reworking but dreads (+carriers) need the most work.


Yes you're right, the real problem is not that Titan's can destroy subcap fleets, its that dreads and carriers can't.


But you could possibly get one of those killed without committing your supers, maybe.Idea
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2399 - 2012-03-16 13:30:27 UTC
Yeep wrote:
Aurora B wrote:
Dr 0wnage wrote:
stupid


You are correct ont the biggest problem issue. Titans need tweaking/reworking but dreads (+carriers) need the most work.


Yes you're right, the real problem is not that Titan's can destroy subcap fleets, its that dreads and carriers can't.


The real problem is that there aren't enough ultimate ratmobiles in this game.
Sentinel Eeex
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2400 - 2012-03-16 13:34:45 UTC
Annabell Prime wrote:
Honestly i don't think this is the "right" way to fix it.

The titans should present a viable threat to an enemy fleet.


CCP could maybe implement some mechanics that would allow Titan to damage/destroy all ships on the grid.

Maybe even through a cyno?