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Incoming titan adjustments

First post First post
Author
Doctor Eezee
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1401 - 2012-03-14 12:26:49 UTC
Dan Massell wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

We had a three-page discussion over the course of a week and you didn't post in it once. It's hard to have a discussion with people who don't participate.


oh no!
3 pages and one week!!!
That seems like WAY too long to give everyone from CSM chance to have a say.
Please cut it down. Such a small change deserves max 1-2 days.
or more like half a day. in US TZ would be the best.

You managed to fly everyone to Iceland because of the monocle tho.

Its good to see CCCP being back where they are most comfortable. Telling you how its going to be or you can go.



Well, if it was only 3 pages there couldn't have been much disagreement by the CSM members or the ones disagreeing don't seem to check the forums nearly enough.

"My rule is: If you meet the weakest vessel, attack; if it is a vessel equal to yours, attack; and if it is stronger than yours, also attack..." - Admiral Stepan O. Makarov

Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1402 - 2012-03-14 12:27:00 UTC
Acwron wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
John Maynard Keynes wrote:
Dear Greyscale,

you do remember how we told you that your surgical adjustments to anomalies will kill 0.0 and you didn't listen so that you had to apologize afterwards? Please don't do this again. Yes supercaps need a proper role and balancing but making them useless simply because you don't have the ressources to do it properly is not the solution. Do at least the following:
Frigs < Cruisers < BC < BS < capitals < supercapitals
Cruisers can easily kill frigs --> BC can easily kill cruisers < BS can easily kill BCs (and here is the problem) capitals are almost useless against BS < Supercapitals can easily kill capitals.

Make Dreads good against BS and don't nerf the sensor strength of titans.



Dreadnaughts are primarily anti-structure tools, with anti-capital as a secondary role. The capital ships you're looking for to deal with battleships are carriers.


Wrong. I was looking for Titan. Cos I trained for it. And it's working good. Since when you tell us what we are looking for?
It's the other way around. We tell you what we're looking for.


Every nerf CCP has done to Titans has been to reduce their ability in combating subcaps. They are trying to tell you something (hint: it's that training for a titan to blap battleships is wrong). CCP gets to tell you what you are looking for because they develop the game.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.

Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#1403 - 2012-03-14 12:32:39 UTC
Jita Bloodtear wrote:
What is the intended role for titans?

Fleet boosters?
Logistical fleet bridging?
Anti-capital weapons?
Anti-structure weapons?
Anti-subcap blapers?

Please clarify what role the titan is meant to serve, and why it's broken.


Well that's half the problem with some of the larger ship classes. They're too much "do everything" rather then having specialized hull types for specific applications. That "do everything" approach, also makes them extremely difficult to balance until you break their functionality out into multiple hulls - or require that sub-systems be fitted to support a specific role.
Acwron
Meet The Fockers
#1404 - 2012-03-14 12:34:11 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Acwron wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
John Maynard Keynes wrote:
Dear Greyscale,

you do remember how we told you that your surgical adjustments to anomalies will kill 0.0 and you didn't listen so that you had to apologize afterwards? Please don't do this again. Yes supercaps need a proper role and balancing but making them useless simply because you don't have the ressources to do it properly is not the solution. Do at least the following:
Frigs < Cruisers < BC < BS < capitals < supercapitals
Cruisers can easily kill frigs --> BC can easily kill cruisers < BS can easily kill BCs (and here is the problem) capitals are almost useless against BS < Supercapitals can easily kill capitals.

Make Dreads good against BS and don't nerf the sensor strength of titans.



Dreadnaughts are primarily anti-structure tools, with anti-capital as a secondary role. The capital ships you're looking for to deal with battleships are carriers.


Wrong. I was looking for Titan. Cos I trained for it. And it's working good. Since when you tell us what we are looking for?
It's the other way around. We tell you what we're looking for.


Every nerf CCP has done to Titans has been to reduce their ability in combating subcaps. They are trying to tell you something (hint: it's that training for a titan to blap battleships is wrong). CCP gets to tell you what you are looking for because they develop the game.


You failed to target nothing.

They develop what we want cos we pay for the game. If it's to be as you want, will be if you have the majority. And probably you have. Still doesn't mean you're right. You are just more than us.
Rick
FinFleet
Northern Coalition.
#1405 - 2012-03-14 12:37:06 UTC
71 pages and all i got really from this is

1. Goons cry and get what they wan
2. Greyscale appears to be a moron, and they still let him make changes like this to the gam
3. This change is going to happen this way and no other, CCP say they are listening to alternitives but wont actually make any changes to the idea that they have pulled out of somewher
5. I think Greyscale is a moro
6. After this patch there will probably be a STOG, where thier leader/CSM will annouce he has manage to get CCP to destroy the use of titans and they can now take over EVE, after which they will must a few thousand toons and do so
7. there is more but im tired and can no longer be bothered to try have an idea changed when its known that CCP generally dont give a rats ass about anything other than goons want and will conform to thier needs and only that

Thanks again CCP. Next attempt at a game you should probably employ
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1406 - 2012-03-14 12:37:09 UTC
John Maynard Keynes wrote:

you do remember how we told you

who is this "we" worthless npc alt

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1407 - 2012-03-14 12:39:22 UTC
Rick wrote:
71 pages and all i got really from this is

1. Goons cry and get what they wan
2. Greyscale appears to be a moron, and they still let him make changes like this to the gam
3. This change is going to happen this way and no other, CCP say they are listening to alternitives but wont actually make any changes to the idea that they have pulled out of somewher
5. I think Greyscale is a moro
6. After this patch there will probably be a STOG, where thier leader/CSM will annouce he has manage to get CCP to destroy the use of titans and they can now take over EVE, after which they will must a few thousand toons and do so
7. there is more but im tired and can no longer be bothered to try have an idea changed when its known that CCP generally dont give a rats ass about anything other than goons want and will conform to thier needs and only that

Thanks again CCP. Next attempt at a game you should probably employ


Have you considered nobody listens to your arguments because you fail to make any and act like a petulant child?
CynoNet Two
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1408 - 2012-03-14 12:39:44 UTC
Rick wrote:
71 pages and all i got really from this is

1. Goons cry and get what they wan
2. Greyscale appears to be a moron, and they still let him make changes like this to the gam
3. This change is going to happen this way and no other, CCP say they are listening to alternitives but wont actually make any changes to the idea that they have pulled out of somewher
5. I think Greyscale is a moro
6. After this patch there will probably be a STOG, where thier leader/CSM will annouce he has manage to get CCP to destroy the use of titans and they can now take over EVE, after which they will must a few thousand toons and do so
7. there is more but im tired and can no longer be bothered to try have an idea changed when its known that CCP generally dont give a rats ass about anything other than goons want and will conform to thier needs and only that

Thanks again CCP. Next attempt at a game you should probably employ

With posting of that quality you're not helping your cause even the tiniest bit.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1409 - 2012-03-14 12:44:07 UTC
Crystal Wolf wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Crystal Wolf wrote:
I think the opportunity to even post intelligent stuff in this thread is gone but here goes

With regards to the nerf i agree with the tracking nerf something did need to be done there even if it was just a temporary measure. However the targeting nerf is ridiculou

As a person who has been on both sides of a titan fight i can understand why people are whining however this nerf appears to be incredibly short sighte

CCP have thought about how to balance titans to what they believe is an acceptable level but they have failed to take into account how this affects the game as a whole. Titans do need a clearly defined role however CCP have just nuked titans because they claim they don't have the resources to do an overhaul so they slapped something together and just put it in a forum pos

Titans will loose their place as an endgame piece of equipment because dreads will be just as effective and cheaper to field what alliance is going to waste time expanding their titan fleet when all they become is a massive jump bridge with a D

For those who say titan pilots are complaining too much you have to understand that titans don't just grow on trees for some people. For those who aren't in larger alliances or those who don't have tech money it actually does take time and effort to build a tita

From a political standpoint CCP are effectively changing the balance of power towards alliances who can just field hundreds of subcaps. The alliances who rely on supers to augment their fleet strength have been forgotten and just pushed aside. This change definitely needs to go back to the drawing board and CCP need to take factors like this into account.


We would be totally happy with an outcome where people stop expanding their titan fleet. It shouldn't be coming as a huge surprise to anyone that, all other things being equal, we would prefer a situation where there were fewer titans in EVE

People who're augmenting their fleet strength with supers we're OK with, and they should continue to be OK after this change. We're not happy with situations where supercaps are making up the bulk of the fleet strength. If that's becoming less viable, then this is a desirable outcome for us.


Firstly its good to see responses from CCP on this matter as that should allay any concerns that people had that you might not be listening

Secondly the only issue i see generated by the nerf is the ill feelings it will create for titan pilots who didn't just have their titans "handed" to them and had to work hard for them investing several months into the game if not longer. But as Shadoo mentioned earlier it would be a good idea to grant titans the ability to to either dock or be GM docked otherwise what will happen is those accounts will just unsub when they could be used for better things until you have a definite timetable for the overhauling of titans

All up i admit titans are currently broken and the tracking nerf is needed just remove the targeting nerf and that should reduce a fair amount of the complaining

Also out of curiosity will these changes be available on SISI before deployment on Tranquility?


We're investigating whether it's possible to add some easy way for people to "park" sensibly; CSMAs are supposed to offer this function, but their total lack of security obviously makes them fairly non-viable.

These changes should be on singularity prior to deployment, but I don't have an actual schedule available for that.
gfldex
#1410 - 2012-03-14 12:45:51 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
This doesn't scale the damage, it scales the hit chance. Part of the problem we're having is that titans aren't hitting subcaps all that often, but when they do hit they do full anti-capital damage and frequently one-hit things as a result.


Indeed. And the reason why folk are forced to one volley targets are excessive RR tanks. But don't worry, the proposed change wont be a problem. It's fairly easy to lift the sig radius of any non supcap (ohh the irony) by a factor of 5.5 with a single Rapier. All you need to do is to read and understand the bonus of said ship.

The tracking of Titans was never a problem. The problem with titans and moms are the massive HP they got now. Before that boost nobody had a problem to fight Titans because you could actually destroy them without taking massive losses. A blob of supcaps will always win the hitpoint race that is PvP in EVE. The massive buffer is scaling any RR done to Titans up to a point where it gets unfeasible to primary them. As a result a Titan blob has all the time in the world to kill as many subcaps as they please. The chance to hit anything is fairly slim for a Titan, even without nerfing tracking. Arm chair game designers only see the killmails. They don't see how often hitting stuff fails. But if you have fights that last for hours there is plenty of time to lock and kill stuff. Tracking nerf or not.

If you want to help with titan tracking you have to ignore titan tracking and make it risky to field them - as it used to be.

I hope you understand the side effect of that tracking nerf. Gang links and the minmatar titans gang bonus fully stack. As a result a carrier with transversal - even while being webbed - will become a problem to hit (as it is already is for loldreads). If you force players to bring painty rapiers they will do so. The whining of subcap pilots will be ENDLESS.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.

Doctor Eezee
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1411 - 2012-03-14 12:45:59 UTC
Rick wrote:
71 pages and all i got really from this is

1. Goons cry and get what they wan
2. Greyscale appears to be a moron, and they still let him make changes like this to the gam
3. This change is going to happen this way and no other, CCP say they are listening to alternitives but wont actually make any changes to the idea that they have pulled out of somewher
5. I think Greyscale is a moro
6. After this patch there will probably be a STOG, where thier leader/CSM will annouce he has manage to get CCP to destroy the use of titans and they can now take over EVE, after which they will must a few thousand toons and do so
7. there is more but im tired and can no longer be bothered to try have an idea changed when its known that CCP generally dont give a rats ass about anything other than goons want and will conform to thier needs and only that

Thanks again CCP. Next attempt at a game you should probably employ



"Also stop crying in the EVEo forums, its exactly what the goons are craving for. If you need to go mental, do it with out of alliance alt"


Maybe you should listen to the other members of your alliance. I'm still baffled that people find this surprising. Introducing Titans into the game was a huge fuckup, so whoever didn't see this nerf coming is just blind.

Also I bid 25b for your now useless titan, if you want to get rid of it.

"My rule is: If you meet the weakest vessel, attack; if it is a vessel equal to yours, attack; and if it is stronger than yours, also attack..." - Admiral Stepan O. Makarov

Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1412 - 2012-03-14 12:47:48 UTC
Acwron wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Every nerf CCP has done to Titans has been to reduce their ability in combating subcaps. They are trying to tell you something (hint: it's that training for a titan to blap battleships is wrong). CCP gets to tell you what you are looking for because they develop the game.


You failed to target nothing.

They develop what we want cos we pay for the game.


Way more people paying for the game think Titans are overpowered.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.

Crystal Wolf
Invision Hosting
Invision Group
#1413 - 2012-03-14 12:48:49 UTC
CynoNet Two wrote:
Rick wrote:
71 pages and all i got really from this is

1. Goons cry and get what they wan
2. Greyscale appears to be a moron, and they still let him make changes like this to the gam
3. This change is going to happen this way and no other, CCP say they are listening to alternitives but wont actually make any changes to the idea that they have pulled out of somewher
5. I think Greyscale is a moro
6. After this patch there will probably be a STOG, where thier leader/CSM will annouce he has manage to get CCP to destroy the use of titans and they can now take over EVE, after which they will must a few thousand toons and do so
7. there is more but im tired and can no longer be bothered to try have an idea changed when its known that CCP generally dont give a rats ass about anything other than goons want and will conform to thier needs and only that

Thanks again CCP. Next attempt at a game you should probably employ

With posting of that quality you're not helping your cause even the tiniest bit.


agreeing with Vile and CynoNet you are simply just posting for the sake of posting and calling CCP devs morons is not the way to press an argument. If you can no longer be bothered to constructively contribute to the thread then please do not bother posting anymore.

.

Variable1
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1414 - 2012-03-14 12:49:34 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


The intended role for titans is a) jump bridging, b) doomsdaying things, c) fleet boosting and d) doing a decent job of killing capitals with their main guns.

We'll be assessing the success of this change based in the first instance on whether or not players are still telling us they're having problems with this sort of thing, and then if they are, looking at the situation objectively and seeing if it merits further work.


I'd like to know who is having problems just now?

CCP Greyscale wrote:

We don't currently have a clear future vision for titans, as mentioned in the first post. We've repeatedly tried and failed to find a role for them that we're happy with in the past, and we don't want to spend significant balance resources on revisiting this right now because we have other priorities.


If you have other priorities, then leave them alone please. Why make a change because of whines and no actual data, based on an extreme character profile and titan fitting that doesn't match 99% of Titan pilots?

CCP Greyscale wrote:

I would also note here that we're doing this "quick fix" precisely because we don't know when we're going to have a comprehensive solution - we regard the current situation as broken, and we don't want to leave it broken indefinitely while we wait for a "proper fix" with no clear timetable. This is the best way to deal with this general sort of problem in our opinion.


Please note. NO ONE wants an ill thought out 'quick fix'. If you think Titans are an issue, spell out all scenarios where this might be true, back it up with data and actual fleet fights. Then make a change based on facts, not hearsay of certain player elements in game. If you don't have time to do it properly, why do it all? This is what gets CCP the bad rep :(


CCP Greyscale wrote:

We're also considering ways of letting people "park up", but we can't make any commitments about that this morning.


Why would you want to make a change that would make pilots that (in my case) spent 3 years saving for a super, want to dock it up and unsub the char?

These decisions really do go against any EVE Fan's sense of gameplay. There is zero objectivity being displayed here.

Sadface
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
Corus Conglomerate
#1415 - 2012-03-14 12:49:42 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Adding a "minimum sig radius" attribute to turrets, below which damage would fall off regardless of tracking

Too big a change and more technical work than we actually needed to solve the problem.


CCP Greyscale, I was wondering... what if a new formula was added to turrets?... one that I know will require alot of work and balance, but would also make the rest of the game get even more interresting

Now hear me out here.... Signature res. of turrets vs signature of target effecting the damage the target receives

as an example lets look at a Tachyon Beam laser II which has 400 Signature resolution... what I had in mind was saying if the target this tachyon beam shoots at is only 200meter signature, it would effectively reduce the dmg by 50% (400/200)=0.5

right now the signature only effects the tracking if the target is smaller than the signature of the guns, I realize that would be a huge reduction under current stats of turrets, but that could be adjusted?

But what this would do is... reduce the instapopping of frigates by battlecruisers and battleships (making smaller ships even more useful, specially in large fleets, then the frigates woud have to kill the hostile frigates)

This would indeed be a huge nerf to turrets as we know them, when fightning things smaller than yourself. But I see it as a huge buff to frigates which is very much needed if you ask me.

as I said the Signature resolutions of all turrets could be adjusted to make such a change more balanced, but overall it would be worth it (just like missiles dmg smaller ships less)

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

testobjekt
Goonswarm Federation Human Resources
#1416 - 2012-03-14 12:49:46 UTC
I would encourage people to clasify their criticism by giving their stance on 3 issues

A) Do you agree with the fact that Titans are not supposed to do meaningful damage to subcaps.

B) The changes CCP proposes will accomplish this goal.


All comment who disagree with A can be safely ignored, because the decission is made.
Dasdraperma
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1417 - 2012-03-14 12:50:02 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Acwron wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
John Maynard Keynes wrote:
Dear Greyscale,

you do remember how we told you that your surgical adjustments to anomalies will kill 0.0 and you didn't listen so that you had to apologize afterwards? Please don't do this again. Yes supercaps need a proper role and balancing but making them useless simply because you don't have the ressources to do it properly is not the solution. Do at least the following:
Frigs < Cruisers < BC < BS < capitals < supercapitals
Cruisers can easily kill frigs --> BC can easily kill cruisers < BS can easily kill BCs (and here is the problem) capitals are almost useless against BS < Supercapitals can easily kill capitals.

Make Dreads good against BS and don't nerf the sensor strength of titans.



Dreadnaughts are primarily anti-structure tools, with anti-capital as a secondary role. The capital ships you're looking for to deal with battleships are carriers.


Wrong. I was looking for Titan. Cos I trained for it. And it's working good. Since when you tell us what we are looking for?
It's the other way around. We tell you what we're looking for.


Every nerf CCP has done to Titans has been to reduce their ability in combating subcaps. They are trying to tell you something (hint: it's that training for a titan to blap battleships is wrong). CCP gets to tell you what you are looking for because they develop the game.


You fail.

CCP doesn't develop this game as their private hobby. They do it for money of their customers. And my money as well.
Every time they forget it - they loose players and this leads to money loss. Remember monoclegate?

Now, about theese changes. For few latest patches CCP favors "some unnamed alliance", and balances game around them. It starts to smell like few years ago, when CCP favored "another unnamed alliance". But well, who cares.

As for me, i dont like game trends for last few patches, and i've cancelled today subscription on 12 (yes, twelve) of my accounts. I hope one day i will read about supercaps viable not only for structures hitting, but for actual pvp, so i will be able to get back into game with spaceships not a structures.

But untill that time, all i can say: farewell o/
Sven Hammerstorm
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1418 - 2012-03-14 12:50:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Sven Hammerstorm
oh my god you are now forced to web and target paint the subcaps so your titans can hit them!!!! why do titans require support fleet with them? they cost many isk

also forgot, you cant do lolsanctums in your titan no more (
dooplex
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1419 - 2012-03-14 12:55:52 UTC
Funny how EVE Online has turned into CFC Online

I can't believe how gullible a company can actually be. The Mittani is like GrĂ­ma Wormtongue in LotR, only there is no Gandalf around to save the day

First few pages full of Goons being smug as they just won EVE, through the famed META-Gaming nontheless

Congrats CCP, you just handed the CFC an all-access VIP ticket for the entire north of nullsec
Titans will now be used for bridging and nothing else. I guess the most expensive, most skill intensive ship in EVE shouldn't actually be used for anything else, right?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Titans were supposed to be very expensive but also very effective strategic force multipliers and as such were working as intended. Smaller entities in nullsec could defend their space by relying on a larger supercaptial fleet. However, after this nerf, numbers will again be everything. A short look at http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/memberCount should give us a general idea of who will be the sole beneficary of this "adjustment"..

In essence: You don't bring a knife to a gunfight and you don't bring subcaps to a capital fight, end of story. If the CFC can't figure out how to use their own caps and throw subcap fleet after subcap fleet at Titans, clearly it's Titans that are not working and need to be nerfed

You'll reap what you sow CCP, let's see how nullsec looks in a couple of months
If anyone actually still bothers to live there..

Well played Mittens
Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1420 - 2012-03-14 12:56:50 UTC
Dasdraperma wrote:


You fail.

CCP doesn't develop this game as their private hobby. They do it for money of their customers. And my money as well.
Every time they forget it - they loose players and this leads to money loss. Remember monoclegate?

Now, about theese changes. For few latest patches CCP favors "some unnamed alliance", and balances game around them. It starts to smell like few years ago, when CCP favored "another unnamed alliance". But well, who cares.

As for me, i dont like game trends for last few patches, and i've cancelled today subscription on 12 (yes, twelve) of my accounts. I hope one day i will read about supercaps viable not only for structures hitting, but for actual pvp, so i will be able to get back into game with spaceships not a structures.

But untill that time, all i can say: farewell o/



This is an emotional response that attempts to blackmail CCP with the threat of losing 12 accounts. What specifically don't you agree with on the change? Do you think that titans needed adjusting or do you just disagree with how they went about doing it? If you want to be taken seriously then get involved, don't throw temper tantrums.