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Incoming titan adjustments

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Vibesz
Odelion Invention
#361 - 2012-03-13 17:37:32 UTC
Sentinel Eeex wrote:
Organa wrote:
Does ccp not seem to realize that there are only currently 2 ways to counter a vastly numerically Superior force? 1 bombers which die in droves but have some chance but generally arnt that effective in killing 1000 dudes with 200. and the titan blob.


Tell me, how would you kill 25 titans?


one at a time
Temmu Guerra
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#362 - 2012-03-13 17:37:58 UTC
Andski wrote:
Organa wrote:
i don't have the issue with the titan nerf itself and am looking forward to see that they do with the new role, but i think if they are going to do that they need to do it not just nerf them. also your hyperbole dosnt address my point of if one side is willing to field 10 to 100 times the isk of the other side they should have the potential to win(not garented to win bc numbers are an important factor just the potential). in doing a stop gap rushed patch like this they make quantity everything and quality mostly useless. that is my issue with it.


"victory to the most ISK fielded" is bad game design


And victory to the biggest blue list is also bad game design.

its just funny how not to long ago you guys were bitching about the blue list the DRF had. Now you are doing it, it is completely okay!

Apparently Mittens has perfected the brainwashing to a tee since no goons can freely think
Gina Aivoras
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#363 - 2012-03-13 17:38:12 UTC
Sentinel Eeex wrote:
Organa wrote:
Does ccp not seem to realize that there are only currently 2 ways to counter a vastly numerically Superior force? 1 bombers which die in droves but have some chance but generally arnt that effective in killing 1000 dudes with 200. and the titan blob.


Tell me, how would you kill 25 titans?

use 50 titans
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#364 - 2012-03-13 17:39:39 UTC
Gina Aivoras wrote:
Sentinel Eeex wrote:
Organa wrote:
Does ccp not seem to realize that there are only currently 2 ways to counter a vastly numerically Superior force? 1 bombers which die in droves but have some chance but generally arnt that effective in killing 1000 dudes with 200. and the titan blob.


Tell me, how would you kill 25 titans?

use 50 titans


Raiden mouthbreather missing the point news at 11

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#365 - 2012-03-13 17:39:41 UTC
John Maynard Keynes wrote:
Ra Death wrote:
I'm almost at a loss of words here. Almost, therefore I am going to speak my mind.

So now capitals are basically structure grinding machines and you only deploy them if you have something to grind down or if someone else is grinding stuff down and you catch someone else grinding down something. This is not a solution, this is a plaster for a symptom. There is now ZERO reason to deploy supercapitals except to grind down a structure. Do you really want structure grinding to become the motivator for people to build and create supercapitals in EVE? I mean, I don't believe you have thought at all about the consequences of these changes.

EVE is now effectively sectioned off into two tier combat systems. Capital combat and sub-capital combat. The difference is, capitals cannot touch sub-capitals, but sub-capitals can, in the numbers that are brought at the moment, almost 1-3 volley capitals. The titans were a workaround for that because numbers were no longer the only deciding factor, your playing time, your assets and your skillpoints actually played a role. Now we are going back to a time again where the only effective tool, a VERY limited tool might I add, against blobbing is a damn stealth bomber. No more force projection by taking advantage of the many years you have spent in the game and the money you have pooled into a titan, you are better off selling off said titan and joining the nearest Maelstrom fleet.

What am I meant to aspire for in EVE in terms of combat? What is my incentive for actually training all these skills. To fly the next flavour of the month subcapital ship?

EVE is now a numbers game when there is a large effort to remove counters for large fleets. If this is the direction we're going, we're going to see a bipolar political landscape because being a small alliance, you can now only exist if you are a part of the inevitable two powerblocks that will come to dominate EVE. If you can't match the numbers, too bad... join or die.

Let's get a rethink of the roles of supercapitals and not a temporary plaster that will reduce supercapitals to nothing but ihub and station grinders.

THIS! THIS! THIS!

Could Greyscale comment this post please?


Dreads are mainly antistructure, with a bit of anti-cap. Carriers still do pretty decent damage against subcaps AFAIK. Supers can switch between anti-cap and anti-subcap depending on their choice of fighter drone. Titans are pure anti-cap.

With regard to the cost and effort of getting into a super, the general design intent of EVE is that you get diminishing returns for progressively higher investments. If you look at module progression, from T1 up to high officer, you'll see that how it generally pans out is that you get a roughly linear increase in power for a roughly exponential increase in cost. Similarly with ships, a T1 cruiser is not equivalent to ten T1 frigates, and a T1 battleship is not equivalent to twenty T1 cruisers. This makes stepping into a larger more powerful ship an interesting cost-benefit decision rather than an obvious no-brainer. Supercaps should continue this trend.
Skye Aurorae
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#366 - 2012-03-13 17:40:51 UTC
I have to say the changes are better than I expected, better thought out than the simple tracking changes.

I've maintained that single titans as part of a fleet are not OP in their current from, it's only when multiple titans end up spread out around grid that it becomes impractical to speed tank all of them. Nerfs needed to be made with the goal of hurting titan blobs more than individual titans. (for example, disabling DDD when there's more than one titan on grid?)

Anyway, the proposed changes are fine, I suspect we've seen the end to the anom running titan, but I'm not sure this kills the titan blob just yet.

Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21 - oh well.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#367 - 2012-03-13 17:41:40 UTC
Honestly, this probably had nothing to do with goons and everything to do with PL hotdropping titans on the CCP subcap fleet.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#368 - 2012-03-13 17:41:52 UTC
DelightSucker wrote:
Congratz CCP you just made sure that Numbers is all in EVE again.

way to **** up your own game.



"oh noez, i might actually have to be good at subcaps"

otoh, i can see how this would fill you with fear and dread, being in the powerhouse of nulli secunda.
Kari Trace
#369 - 2012-03-13 17:42:09 UTC
Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you.
If you don't agree with constant play balancing you're bad for the game.
If your crying over your Titans inability to blap everything with your guns: welcome back to the game.

I like making things explode.

Kari Trace
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#370 - 2012-03-13 17:42:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tolmar wrote:
That is just all sorts of fail... if you do not know why read up on titans before posting please....
…and yet, none of what I said had anything in it that was specific to titans, so how about you go and read up on the tracking formula instead?

Carmen de Mairena wrote:
The Mittani wrote:
Titan pilots make up .2% of the player population, if we assume 350k players and ~730 titans according to Diagoras' tweets.
According to the last CSM results you were elected CSM Chairman thanks to the votes of 5,365 people, which is 1.53% of the EVE population.
…so you agree, then, that Mittens' opinion matters about 30× more than that of the titan pilots (especially since a fair amount of titan pilots belong to his 1.5%).
Temmu Guerra
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#371 - 2012-03-13 17:42:47 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Dreads are mainly antistructure, with a bit of anti-cap. Carriers still do pretty decent damage against subcaps AFAIK. Supers can switch between anti-cap and anti-subcap depending on their choice of fighter drone. Titans are pure anti-cap.

With regard to the cost and effort of getting into a super, the general design intent of EVE is that you get diminishing returns for progressively higher investments. If you look at module progression, from T1 up to high officer, you'll see that how it generally pans out is that you get a roughly linear increase in power for a roughly exponential increase in cost. Similarly with ships, a T1 cruiser is not equivalent to ten T1 frigates, and a T1 battleship is not equivalent to twenty T1 cruisers. This makes stepping into a larger more powerful ship an interesting cost-benefit decision rather than an obvious no-brainer. Supercaps should continue this trend.



So we can expect some radical changes coming with sov warefare to prevent numbers being the only factor because as of right now with this nerf that is all they count for.
Sentinel Eeex
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#372 - 2012-03-13 17:43:04 UTC
Gina Aivoras wrote:
Sentinel Eeex wrote:
Organa wrote:
Does ccp not seem to realize that there are only currently 2 ways to counter a vastly numerically Superior force? 1 bombers which die in droves but have some chance but generally arnt that effective in killing 1000 dudes with 200. and the titan blob.


Tell me, how would you kill 25 titans?

use 50 titans


So, you could say that one would need to use vastly numerically Superior force to achieve that, right?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#373 - 2012-03-13 17:44:51 UTC
Temmu Guerra wrote:
So we can expect some radical changes coming with sov warefare to prevent numbers being the only factor because as of right now with this nerf that is all they count for.


CCP totally didn't announce a war-focused expansion for this summer. Nope, not at all.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
progodlegend
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#374 - 2012-03-13 17:45:20 UTC
I like the nerf, requires people to do some thinking to get the tracking titan fits to work again, but they still work, though it is slightly more risky than before.
Hulemand
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#375 - 2012-03-13 17:46:19 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Dreads are mainly antistructure, with a bit of anti-cap. Carriers still do pretty decent damage against subcaps AFAIK. Supers can switch between anti-cap and anti-subcap depending on their choice of fighter drone. Titans are pure anti-cap.

With regard to the cost and effort of getting into a super, the general design intent of EVE is that you get diminishing returns for progressively higher investments. If you look at module progression, from T1 up to high officer, you'll see that how it generally pans out is that you get a roughly linear increase in power for a roughly exponential increase in cost. Similarly with ships, a T1 cruiser is not equivalent to ten T1 frigates, and a T1 battleship is not equivalent to twenty T1 cruisers. This makes stepping into a larger more powerful ship an interesting cost-benefit decision rather than an obvious no-brainer. Supercaps should continue this trend.


I suppose you are right in making this change if you want titans to be unable to kill subcaps, but...


How are super carriers able to kill subcaps besides battleships?

Cost-benefit as in logistics, having safe posses, cynoes, moving fuel and more **** like that.


This is indeed an interesting change to the game, good luck with keeping your job once the amount of accounts drop because of boredom and what follows when you allow for one big power block to control all of EVE.

Admiral Hulemand Core Operations Overseer
George Holden
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#376 - 2012-03-13 17:46:24 UTC
Right now I'm only reading:
"BOOHOOBOOHOO my titan is not able to blap any other ship in EVE anymore BOOHOOBOOHOO"

I might be pretty stupid but from what I've learned so far it seems that Titans we're not really intended to engage subcapitals but to support them, engage structures and engage other capitals.

I'm going to earn a lot of rage for that which I'm going to enjoy it a lot:

The Leviathan to be honest seems to be the only Titan working at least half way as intended. Citadels don't hurt anything below the size of a capital that seems okay for me.
Organa
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#377 - 2012-03-13 17:47:34 UTC
Vile rat wrote:
Organa wrote:
Vile rat wrote:

Every single modification they've done to titans has been to reduce or remove their ability to impact subcap fleets. AOE DD? gone. DD's no longer work on subcaps? done. Tracking nerfed? Now that's done too.

The whole point everybody is missing is that you need to stop using these broken hulls as crutches because they were never meant for this role. They were never supposed to be doing what you've used them for and my biggest regret is they let it go this long so people felt like they had to have them in order to be successful. That said it was made clear this is a temporary stopgap fix because they see, like we've been screaming about for ages, that the hull is broken and being used in a role it wasn't meant for. They are going to design a new role for the hull then figure out mechanics to support the hull instead of what we have now which is some dumbo's idea to have a big honkin ship in the game without considering what would happen once you have a thousand big honkin ships.

So stop trying to come up with cute ways to somehow recapture the old glory. Titans weren't meant for subcap warfare, they are capital killers. If you are 300 dudes with multiple accounts crying that you won't be able to punch way above your station to take on 50,000 dudes maybe you should select objectives more appropriate for your size or maybe you can make some friends.


i don't have the issue with the titan nerf itself and am looking forward to see that they do with the new role, but i think if they are going to do that they need to do it not just nerf them. also your hyperbole dosnt address my point of if one side is willing to field 10 to 100 times the isk of the other side they should have the potential to win(not garented to win bc numbers are an important factor just the potential). in doing a stop gap rushed patch like this they make quantity everything and quality mostly useless. that is my issue with it.


I risked more isk than you is a poor argument. Being able to throw more spacebux around should only have a modest increase in your chances of winning, not be the decider.


which is more or less what i said. if these changes go through without some other changes there is no "effective" way to counter numbers other than more numbers which for you as a goon fc is a good thing

as to seleen killing 25 titans that are fit to kill sub caps isnt all that hard (bc they have crap recharge rate and little tank) you just have to have tackle and either a super fleet of your own that you are willing to commit or lots of dreads
fugazii
Slippery Penguin
#378 - 2012-03-13 17:48:14 UTC
Caneb wrote:
This is amazing for anyone who believes that sov warfare should not just be for whoever can bring the most titans to a fight.

Not just us.


It should be about who can bring the most numbers.

and now it is.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#379 - 2012-03-13 17:50:20 UTC
Hulemand wrote:
This is indeed an interesting change to the game, good luck with keeping your job once the amount of accounts drop because of boredom and what follows when you allow for one big power block to control all of EVE.


i love it when the sad lil raiden pubbies say that

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Death2all Supercaps
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#380 - 2012-03-13 17:50:21 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Dreads are mainly antistructure, with a bit of anti-cap. Carriers still do pretty decent damage against subcaps AFAIK. Supers can switch between anti-cap and anti-subcap depending on their choice of fighter drone. Titans are pure anti-cap.

With regard to the cost and effort of getting into a super, the general design intent of EVE is that you get diminishing returns for progressively higher investments. If you look at module progression, from T1 up to high officer, you'll see that how it generally pans out is that you get a roughly linear increase in power for a roughly exponential increase in cost. Similarly with ships, a T1 cruiser is not equivalent to ten T1 frigates, and a T1 battleship is not equivalent to twenty T1 cruisers. This makes stepping into a larger more powerful ship an interesting cost-benefit decision rather than an obvious no-brainer. Supercaps should continue this trend.


aka


DEATH2ALL SUPERCAPS

a blooo blooo bloooooo Cool