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Manufacturing expansion loan - caveat: we have no collateral

Author
israus
Speculum Ambitus
#21 - 2012-02-29 07:11:28 UTC
see the reason people are questioning your credabity in my opinion is this. I run a production char on the side for cash. now I like most people like to keep a stock pile of mats at station to make sure I can keep production going. now I only manage to keep 3-4 days on station at a time right now. but even that is 2-3 billion in production mats, then theres the assests i'm selling currently about 1-1.5 billion

so with you have 10 accounts in production you should have i'd say atleast 10 billion in mats for production in your assest and atleast a couple of billion in assests to be sold.

so my question is why if you are a producer who is profitable why havent you just liquated some of your assests to cover your plexs
flakeys
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-02-29 07:47:24 UTC  |  Edited by: flakeys
Aurel Svenson wrote:
I have little doubt we'll be able to pay back the loan with the interest, though another, smaller loan might be required to keep the PLEX flowing without damaging our capital .



Come on you need plex for 10 accounts and at the end of the line there is a change you might need a loan again for plex .... stop shouting how much isk you can make with it because there is a reason people are saying they think it is not as shiny as it is.It's because you can not even afford the basic , wich is to pay a plex for your main account as that one is also calculated in the 10 plex's.

Also with this you will loose more then half of the investment in non-resellable stuff.So people loan you 8 B , and immediatly 5B of that will vanish in thin air making it impossible to even repay the basic loan in the worst case scenario ... i for one would not loan one isk to this.Be it with an honest idea set up or not.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.

Aurel Svenson
Cyclone Solutions
#23 - 2012-02-29 11:28:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Aurel Svenson
israus wrote:
see the reason people are questioning your credabity in my opinion is this. I run a production char on the side for cash. now I like most people like to keep a stock pile of mats at station to make sure I can keep production going. now I only manage to keep 3-4 days on station at a time right now. but even that is 2-3 billion in production mats, then theres the assests i'm selling currently about 1-1.5 billion

so with you have 10 accounts in production you should have i'd say atleast 10 billion in mats for production in your assest and atleast a couple of billion in assests to be sold.

so my question is why if you are a producer who is profitable why havent you just liquated some of your assests to cover your plexs



I don't keep 3-4 days at a time. My daily turnover is higher than my total assets.

flakeys wrote:
Come on you need plex for 10 accounts and at the end of the line there is a change you might need a loan again for plex .... stop shouting how much isk you can make with it because there is a reason people are saying they think it is not as shiny as it is.It's because you can not even afford the basic , wich is to pay a plex for your main account as that one is also calculated in the 10 plex's.

Also with this you will loose more then half of the investment in non-resellable stuff.So people loan you 8 B , and immediatly 5B of that will vanish in thin air making it impossible to even repay the basic loan in the worst case scenario ... i for one would not loan one isk to this.Be it with an honest idea set up or not.


There's no mention of PLEXing my main account because I'm intending to pay for it with cash due to a personal philosophy.

Possibly needing a second loan at the end isn't the same as losing money, it's that I'm sure I can turn 6B into 13.2B but that I'm not sure I can turn it into 18.2B (the savvy among you will note that 13.2B leaves me right where I am now with 3B assets, but I will have much better skills; I expect it to be higher than this, though.)

5 billion does not "vanish" - it's turned into manufacturing capability.
Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers
#24 - 2012-02-29 11:43:52 UTC
Aurel Svenson wrote:
Not trying to goad, I'm a little frustrated being told I'm not earning money when I'm running a profitable venture. I really hate being told by people I can't do something they know little about.


Here you go again.

I know - You guys don't know.

The moment you accept that some people other than yourself might know what they are talking about, you'll immensely increase your chances of finding partners.

You are not looking for partners right now - you are looking for open wallets. Without questioning whether or not it's legit you have to realise that it's exactly the same thing many scammers do - hence, it looks like a scam.

israus
Speculum Ambitus
#25 - 2012-02-29 12:26:33 UTC
Aurel Svenson wrote:


I don't keep 3-4 days at a time. My daily turnover is higher than my total assets.



thats impossible if you have production running on 10 accounts enough to make plex money for a month you should have atleast 20 billion in BPOs

and if you can make 8 bil in a month then your going to have to make 260 mil profit a day so eve assuming a 10% profit thats going to be 2.6 billion in ore and mats you need to keep on site for production. and since you arent going to be able to sell the stuff you make straight away it'll take a day or 2 to shift stock your going to need to keep atleast 1-2 days worth of mates in order to keep production going.

there is no way you have built up a production empire with 10 accounts without having enough assests for to cover a days turn over.

every answer you come out with just show's you've got less and less knowledge of production and show's your nothing but a really poor scammer
Aurel Svenson
Cyclone Solutions
#26 - 2012-02-29 15:39:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Aurel Svenson
Cyniac wrote:
Aurel Svenson wrote:
Not trying to goad, I'm a little frustrated being told I'm not earning money when I'm running a profitable venture. I really hate being told by people I can't do something they know little about.


Here you go again.

I know - You guys don't know.

The moment you accept that some people other than yourself might know what they are talking about, you'll immensely increase your chances of finding partners.

You are not looking for partners right now - you are looking for open wallets. Without questioning whether or not it's legit you have to realise that it's exactly the same thing many scammers do - hence, it looks like a scam.



People saying that rigs aren't profitable and can't be produced in the numbers I'm making without destroying the market seem very much to not know the rig market (though maybe I should be more cynical: maybe they're in the rig market and don't want me to dedicate 65 manufacturing slots to it, which would be reasonable of them to not want).

The moment someone accepts that I *might* know what I'm talking about I'll be glad to prove it. I would love a partner, which is why I took up Brandon's offer to talk where he did provide some insight. So in this thread I've sought advice from 100% of the people not openly hostile.

Quote:
thats impossible if you have production running on 10 accounts enough to make plex money for a month you should have atleast 20 billion in BPOs

and if you can make 8 bil in a month then your going to have to make 260 mil profit a day so eve assuming a 10% profit thats going to be 2.6 billion in ore and mats you need to keep on site for production. and since you arent going to be able to sell the stuff you make straight away it'll take a day or 2 to shift stock your going to need to keep atleast 1-2 days worth of mates in order to keep production going.

there is no way you have built up a production empire with 10 accounts without having enough assests for to cover a days turn over.

every answer you come out with just show's you've got less and less knowledge of production and show's your nothing but a really poor scammer
You're not a very good manufacturer if you believe the first part, and certainly don't know the rig market.

As to the second part, we generally move stock in a few hours as we target high movement markets. We're looking for a situation where we have 6 billion ISK of mats and stuff for sale, hoping to be able to actually have extra mats on hand for once. As it stands, we buy mats as quickly as possible, immediately turn them into finished goods (and rigs build quickly) and sell them at a rapid rate.


The clones start dying in about 12 hours, but I guess there's nothing to be done for it. Thanks to you, Brandon, but the rest of you are pricks. (Actually, I think Cyniac may be an exception. He was fairly neutral and I admit, it does look like a scam but I can't figure out how to prove I'm legitimate without getting a loan.)

If anyone at all is inclined to help, I would really appreciate it. If you think I'm crazy for wanting to spend billions on PLEX I'd be happy to earmark loans for operations instead of clone life extension. If what's stopping you is the economics, I can show you how our system works and what we're planning to do next.
Fraszoid
Miner Guide to the Galaxy
#27 - 2012-02-29 16:36:48 UTC
I'm interested in seeing how this works. Tell me about it and I'll see if I can get some investors for you. I also need financial projections and wallet logs so I can do up some financial statements. Things are better when back with hard evidence and proof of what you say.
israus
Speculum Ambitus
#28 - 2012-02-29 16:47:37 UTC
Aurel Svenson wrote:
[ You're not a very good manufacturer if you believe the first part, and certainly don't know the rig market.

As to the second part, we generally move stock in a few hours as we target high movement markets. We're looking for a situation where we have 6 billion ISK of mats and stuff for sale, hoping to be able to actually have extra mats on hand for once. As it stands, we buy mats as quickly as possible, immediately turn them into finished goods (and rigs build quickly) and sell them at a rapid rate.


The clones start dying in about 12 hours, but I guess there's nothing to be done for it. Thanks to you, Brandon, but the rest of you are pricks. (Actually, I think Cyniac may be an exception. He was fairly neutral and I admit, it does look like a scam but I can't figure out how to prove I'm legitimate without getting a loan.)

If anyone at all is inclined to help, I would really appreciate it. If you think I'm crazy for wanting to spend billions on PLEX I'd be happy to earmark loans for operations instead of clone life extension. If what's stopping you is the economics, I can show you how our system works and what we're planning to do next.


so any one day you've got 6 billion in assests so you can get cash from there. see if you'd been smart you'd have 9 alts using 3 accounts for this scheme so you plex overhead isn't 5 billion a month.

also i'm not sure you could make the money your taking about from the rig market. rig bpo's are extremely cheap meaning level of entry for players is real small. so you dont get a 10 % margin you'd be lucky to get 2-3% in that envorment

like Fraszoid having facts and figures to back up your claims helps problem is you've not shown any just made vague claims about profits and projections
Aurel Svenson
Cyclone Solutions
#29 - 2012-02-29 17:20:10 UTC
We have 3 billion right now, with the ideal loan of 8B, we'd have 6B in working capital after investing 5M into manufacturing capacity by PLEXing the clones.

It takes 3x as long to train 3 alts per account. Growth from improved manufacturing capacity appears to be worth enough to justify separate accounts - if only we could buy 3 day PLEX.

One thing about rigs is that you can make a lot of rigs. And a lot of different types of rigs.

Too much stock is put in BPOs.

If you're serious, I've got spreadsheets of data for you.
flakeys
Doomheim
#30 - 2012-02-29 20:13:32 UTC  |  Edited by: flakeys
Aurel Svenson wrote:
but the rest of you are pricks.



So because people have questions about if or why they should loan isk to a stranger without having ANY guarantee on getting it back they are pricks.Nice attitude you got there , sure to get you further on your loan request.

It allways leaves me amazed when the person who is ''begging for isk'' from complete strangers is the one who starts name calling like a spoiled bratt when he doesn't get it.YOU are the one who came in here to ask people for isk , if you can't handle some questions/concerns and people disagreeing with your viewpoint then arrange youw own isk.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.

Laura Marhsal
The Echo Underground Project
#31 - 2012-02-29 22:16:02 UTC
Cyniac wrote:
Aurel Svenson wrote:
Yes, we really can. Our income grows day by day, already it's enough to make the interest several times over.

And actually, this might explain why this market's so lucrative: without looking into it everyone thinks it's impossible. We only have good skills on one character and we don't have good BPOs...


No - you can't.

The more you push the markets the more they will push back. If you are making 8% per day now you will be making half of that or less when you are at full production. (as a concept this is true for all markets, not just rigs)

Profit does not scale up linearly - which seems to be the major fallacy in your assumptions.
you can make it go linear u just have to be all over the market and change what ur making to what he demand is on and pay per hour is good
Nerdy McButtHurt Trald
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-03-01 01:32:39 UTC
I will try to help you.

To run a good manufacturing operation you do not need 10 accounts, but you do need some skills which can be purchased.

With 2 accounts, that is 6 toons.
To just run manufacturing properly you just need some basic industry skills, you don't need research & science. A 5 Million sp character is all you need for perfect manufacture and max slots. These characters are cheap, about 1B each.

4 characters for manufacturing.
1 good for research and development
1 good for logistics (freighter), and purchasing/selling. Typically this is the main toon and should have good standings with the stations you trade in (not essential).

Two accounts are all you need to run a large manufacturing operation.

Then you need a good location with lots of open slots.

The biggest headache is moving all the materials from the trade hub to and from the base.


The problem you have as a starter is that your competitors know the markets well, and have better researched BPO's, and have good logistics organizations. When you start to scale up production it starts to bite your competitors profits and they react.

If they choose to purchase 1 rig from you and see who the money went to, they could track you and make efforts to remove you as a problem.

Choices range from wardec, mercs, dump your markets (the most fun). A bigger competitor will typically out spend you to destroy you just for fun/vengence/pride, and it will be pocket change.


At the moment you are small and relatively profitable. Your size doesn't impact the market. To move enough product to make 2-3B a month means altering the entire market. You need 3-5 days materials on hand, as the stuff won't sell instantly due to competitive undercutting.

3B profit a month is 100M a day
100M a day at 8% margin is 1.25B in sales per day
cost of products is 1.15B per day
3 days materials is 3.45B
At least 1.5 days worth of goods for sale is 1.725B

At any 1 time you need over 5B in cash flow to run a 3B profit a month company
Then you need BPO's and time.
You have none of the above


So when you come here and can't understand why people are skeptical, its because some of these people have been running larger operations for many years. There is a lot of graft involved.



My advice is to stay small with 1 account and use all three toons on it. Get bigger organically - walk before you can run
Johnny Frecko
Fruidian Logic
#33 - 2012-03-02 18:58:15 UTC
Won't repat what has been said before, but several things caught my eye

emotions being used
limited time offer
manufacturing mechanics that ill-discribe the market.

combine all of the above and you'll get people convinced you're a scam.
the least you could do is open up your API for everyone to see, you already said how you manufacture, you already said you operate in liquid markets, so if i had to guess ,you're making trimarks and CCC's and sell them in jita/dodi/hek.

your statement about not having any production mats in stock for more than a day is intresting, because that adds to your claims you buy your mats instantly, produce and sell. Buying instantly adds costs over costs to your production, Making the whole concept less than feasible.

You're not getting my iskies, And i believe no one elses.
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