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Manufacturing expansion loan - caveat: we have no collateral

Author
Aurel Svenson
Cyclone Solutions
#1 - 2012-02-26 16:03:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Aurel Svenson
I run a manufacturing corp along with my brother and ten clone alts, focused on supplying rigs and PI materials to Jita. The alts are all just about to get PEV - and also about to run out of trial time.

I'm looking to round up about 8 billion ISK total so I can afford to PLEX them all and get them making rigs and PI items. 30 day loan, 30% return on investment. Yes, the market will suffer for the massive influx of manufactured goods, but there's still plenty of room; we figure that if the market were infinite we could offer returns up to 100%.

Need for the money: PLEX, blueprints, materials tied up in manufacturing and buy and sell orders

Unfortunately, we are unable to provide any collateral at this point. If we had collateral, we would sell it and reinvest the money in our production.

I realise this is a long shot, but feel free to contact me here or in game and I'll do my best to demonstrate legitimacy. Hopefully some of the folks I used to know on EVE will see this and vouch for me.

-Aurel
Lost Hamster
Hamster Holding Corp
#2 - 2012-02-26 16:13:14 UTC
Sorry my friend, but no one will give you 8b, just because you ask nicely. Not even on 30%.
Whiteknight03
Trilon Industries and Exploration
#3 - 2012-02-26 16:25:28 UTC
So you decided to make 2-3 trial accounts to produce . . . Rigs. What was your plan for keeping these accounts running after the trial ran out?
Aurel Svenson
Cyclone Solutions
#4 - 2012-02-26 16:42:36 UTC
I was hoping for faster growth. Now that their skills are up they'll generate over a PLEX a month each... Just not in the next 3 days.
Ameron Phinard
#5 - 2012-02-26 18:55:44 UTC
I would focus on getting one additional account subbed this month, then resub the next when funds are available, etc. Snowball effect.
KrakizBad
Section 8.
#6 - 2012-02-26 21:12:40 UTC
No way will anyone loan you 8b for plex since you're clearly not profitable. Rethink strategy.
Aurel Svenson
Cyclone Solutions
#7 - 2012-02-26 23:49:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Aurel Svenson
I'm not entirely sure how you conclude we're not profitable. We've had insufficient capital to have all of our resources at full use but are still making about 8% of our assets per day. At our current income we could pay back the loan with interest, and our income would increase drastically.

(And yes, snowballing is what we'll do if we can't get a loan. I'm somewhat concerned that the four hour activation to buy a PLEX won't work for trial accounts, though.)
Nerdy McButtHurt Trald
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-02-27 05:44:46 UTC
Hate to break it to you, but you can't make 30% on 8B in a month manufacturing rigs.

Maybe a few do, but they have max skills, and good BPO's and know their markets.

It's an easy market to get into, so by default its also a market that doesn't make a good return.






Just like in RL, the most succesfful people are the ones that worked for it. Hey lend me 8 B and I get rich quick!!
Start from the bottom and work your way up.
Aurel Svenson
Cyclone Solutions
#9 - 2012-02-27 15:28:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Aurel Svenson
Yes, we really can. Our income grows day by day, already it's enough to make the interest several times over.

And actually, this might explain why this market's so lucrative: without looking into it everyone thinks it's impossible. We only have good skills on one character and we don't have good BPOs...
Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers
#10 - 2012-02-27 15:37:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyniac
Aurel Svenson wrote:
Yes, we really can. Our income grows day by day, already it's enough to make the interest several times over.

And actually, this might explain why this market's so lucrative: without looking into it everyone thinks it's impossible. We only have good skills on one character and we don't have good BPOs...


No - you can't.

The more you push the markets the more they will push back. If you are making 8% per day now you will be making half of that or less when you are at full production. (as a concept this is true for all markets, not just rigs)

Profit does not scale up linearly - which seems to be the major fallacy in your assumptions.
Aurel Svenson
Cyclone Solutions
#11 - 2012-02-27 17:07:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Aurel Svenson
There's lots of markets, and I'm fully aware that I won't be making 8% at full production, but we will be making far more money than I currently am. And at our current income we can produce far more than 2.4B/month.

Edit: Actually, we might be making 8% or more, PEV for the majority of our workers will be hugely beneficial.

You guys are pretty stubbornly opposed to the idea that there's money to be made in EVE, aren't you? Or maybe it seems too easy? Admittedly, rigs aren't anywhere near as great as they used to be when you could make one in 10 minutes worth 5M in profit... But it's not completely over, and there is *always* lots of money to be made in EVE.
Oh ro
#12 - 2012-02-27 17:53:24 UTC
Whiteknight03 wrote:
So you decided to make 2-3 trial accounts to produce . . . Rigs. What was your plan for keeping these accounts running after the trial ran out?


Clearly have people PLEX them for him
Brandon Tsero
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-02-27 19:48:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Brandon Tsero
*sigh* stop being so mean to people trying.

Shoot me a mail, id be interested in helping you as a consultant, you are honestly going big to fast. Also why do you need 8o billion. X3 characters per account, at most 2b in plex would be needed.
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
#14 - 2012-02-27 20:54:15 UTC
When I first started out trading Forex, I'd been really successful for about a month, so I made a spreadsheet projecting how much money I was going to have over the next 20 years at that rate.

Excel told me I'd have $26,842,223,058,737,488.37 by now...
Whiteknight03
Trilon Industries and Exploration
#15 - 2012-02-28 05:46:30 UTC
I don't think you understand the concept of market saturation. Rigs have rather low demand. When you are producing few rigs, they'll all sell and also give you a very impressive profit margin. But once you hit the point of saturation, the rest of your stock won't sell.

And the fact that you have not foreseen this makes others wary of doing business with you. In addition the whole lots of accounts silliness and the complete lack of any sort of credibility.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#16 - 2012-02-28 08:15:57 UTC
The OP mentality reminds me of those near sighted RL corps who believe in infinite growth.

We are living in the age showing their "bold results".
Aurel Svenson
Cyclone Solutions
#17 - 2012-02-28 15:52:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Aurel Svenson
I'm not entirely sure why you guys don't understand this: we are profitable. If PLEX came in 3 day quantities at 1/10 the current amount, we wouldn't be asking for a loan. We make enough in 30 days to cover our expenses - but we don't have 30 days until we need to PLEX up.

We don't need infinite growth, we need to expand by about 60% to cover the 2.4B interest and 5B in PLEX - and tripling our working capital and getting to PE V would almost certainly allow us to do so.

We don't deal in any particular market, we deal in all markets that are profitable - and there are many.

There's money to be had.

(Lack of credibility is a whole 'nother ball game, not sure what to do about that.)
flakeys
Doomheim
#18 - 2012-02-28 16:42:20 UTC
Aurel Svenson wrote:
5B in PLEX.)



As been asked before , 5B = 10 plex = 10 accounts . So your brother , you and 10 alts .. now why doesn't this add up?

And IF you are so profitable offcourse you set isk aside for the plex of your own and your brothers acccount .. so we r talking bout the 10 alts then.


Either you are trying to scam or that huge profit you have is not that huge after all or you just fail at rightly managing your isk for what has priority .

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.

Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers
#19 - 2012-02-28 17:57:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyniac
I think you managed to convince me this is a scam in your last post. On the oddball chance you are legit I'll tell you why:


Aurel Svenson wrote:
I'm not entirely sure why you guys don't understand this: we are profitable.


Emotional appeal -> sounds like goading "you guys are smarter than this come on give us money"

Aurel Svenson wrote:
There's money to be had.


More of the same -> Emotional appeal, trying to goad the investor, rather than convince through a rational argument.

Aurel Svenson wrote:
We don't deal in any particular market, we deal in all markets that are profitable - and there are many.


Make that three -> Guys markets are profitable we know them you'll get rich easy!

Aurel Svenson wrote:
If PLEX came in 3 day quantities at 1/10 the current amount, we wouldn't be asking for a loan. We make enough in 30 days to cover our expenses - but we don't have 30 days until we need to PLEX up.


This is actually a plausible argument. until...

Aurel Svenson wrote:
We don't need infinite growth, we need to expand by about 60% to cover the 2.4B interest and 5B in PLEX - and tripling our working capital and getting to PE V would almost certainly allow us to do so.


This hits. 10 accounts? Pay 8 billion most of which will be gone within days (to plex) and the rest goes to interest payments? Let me see...

You get 8 billion

in 3 days you pay 5 billion in plex

Lets be generous, say you have 1 billion in own assets.

so you have ... 8 - 5 + 1 total: 4 billion from which you would need to generate 5 billion in a month to be back where you started, or 7.4 billion to pay the interest and have the seed capital you would have now... 4 billion -> 11.4 billion in one month with suboptimal manufacturing skills while pushing a market? I'm not convinced.

There is good news for you though here it is:

If things are as good as you say they are, you don't need investors. You just need time and alts. With enough time and enough alts you will eventually be able to start to afford to plex some of your accounts which will then become more valuable which in turn allow you to fulfill your dreams...

Good luck. I keep my iskies though.
Aurel Svenson
Cyclone Solutions
#20 - 2012-02-28 23:39:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Aurel Svenson
Not trying to goad, I'm a little frustrated being told I'm not earning money when I'm running a profitable venture. I really hate being told by people I can't do something they know little about.

I would offer details, but advertising my business strategy to people who are certainly *not* going to give me a loan doesn't seem wise. (Actually, someone expressed an actual interest in offering me a loan and I gave him details.)

Let's try the math again. I get 8 billion, pay 5 billion in PLEX. We have over 3 billion right now and the loan would boost that up to 6. Several characters have optimal manufacturing skills, the rest will in very short order. Our profit margin on 50 of our manufacturing slots will increase by about a third, and we'll also have them full much more often (probably 24 hours a day). I have little doubt we'll be able to pay back the loan with the interest, though another, smaller loan might be required to keep the PLEX flowing without damaging our capital (but I'm guessing I can get the first lender to lend a smaller amount a second time after being paid back properly the first).

I'm not desperate for investors. If I can't get a loan, I'll PLEX 3 of the clones and leave the rest to die, and we'll move on. Would be awful nice to continue growing at a rapid rate, though. We lose, and could've-been investors lose.
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