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Rising PLEX prices

Author
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#61 - 2017-07-12 20:44:00 UTC
Keno Skir wrote:
Sarina Aideron wrote:
Funny how every Goon is fiercly defending high PLEX prices.
Are you scared that CCP might intervene and the trillions you invested in PLEX might lose value?

Mop up your butt-hurt please it's getting slippery underfoot Pirate


I have defended market based pricing on a number of items including PLEX. Most of the "PLEX prices are too high" complaints are coming from people who feel they should be allowed to play the game at a discount.

The bottom line is that the uses for PLEX have been increasing since their introduction. As a result of this increased demand at all price levels. Demand curves represent the locus of points for a given set of parameters and a variable price. That is as price decreases the quantity demanded goes up. Either people want to buy more than before, new people start buying PLEX or more likel, both. This is not shocking nor controversial to anyone with a rudimentary familiarity to neoclassical economics.

Q = D(p;a,b,c).

That is the quantity demanded is a function of the price, p, given parameters a, b and c. A could be something like income and b could a taste parameter, and c, a parameter related to compliments. In the case of PLEX, initially it started out with:

Q = D(p).

Then CCP introduced another use for PLEX, e.g. character transfers, so now we have

D(p;a) > D(p) for all p. That is the demand curve shifts outwards or to the right if you are going to graph it. Then they introduce additional character training on the same account or,

D(p;a,b) > D(p;a) > D(p), for all p.

Then they replace Aurum with PLEX and now we have,

D(p;a,b,c) > D(p;a,b) > D(p;a) > D(p), for all p.

Given a supply curve, then it is going to be the case the price that clears the market has to increase with each of these changes. No, these changes will not effect the supply curve in the same way. Yes, the increased price will mean a higher level of PLEX are being supplied but that is a movement along a given supply curve. That is,

S(p;a,b,c) = S(p;a,b) = S(p;a) S D(p), for all p.

In other words, the supply curve in all four instances represents the same locus of points.

The equilibrium price such that S(p;a,b,c) = D(p;a,b,c) will be higher than the equilibrium price such that S(p;a,b) = D(p;a,b).

All of this is covered in an introductory economics class.

We do not need to invoke a conspiracy theory to explain the rise in PLEX prices when we have explanations that work without this unverifiable hypothesis. You know things like Ockham's razor, the principle of parsimony and all that other Bravo Sierra.

And artificially setting PLEX prices below the market clearing price will result in the following:

S(p;a,b,c) < D(p;a,b,c).

This is called excess demand. What this means is pretty straight forward: demand is higher than the supply. That is, some people who want PLEX won't have any to buy. They'll show up here on the forums and whine. "I want a PLEX but I can't buy one." The implication is that they want to force some other player to spend RL money and sell them that PLEX at a discounted price.

Oh, and for you "Grrr Goons" types, I am a PLEX buyer not a seller. I would be strictly better off with lower prices.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#62 - 2017-07-12 20:58:15 UTC
Algarion Getz wrote:
Freya Sertan wrote:
Damn it feels good to be an adult with a job.

* in a Western country.

In my last job, a 6-month internship in Eastern Europe, i earned 0.48$ an hour. So ... ~30h of work for a 1-month EVE sub. (Everyone in Europe has to pay the same 15$/month, only Russians get a special payment plan AFAIK.)

I prefer to earn my Omega time ingame.


I am really, really not trying to be a jerk here. But, based on these numbers.....

Using the $15. Based on your $0.48 that means and a person who is indifferent to paying via PLEX (bought in game) vs. paying with RL money he should be willing to grind for 31.25 hours for that PLEX. And using the 1.5 billion ISK number he would need to make at least 48 million ISK/hour.

If you are not willing to grind for that long each month simply to pay for the game...well....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Freya Sertan
KarmaFleet University
#63 - 2017-07-12 21:21:35 UTC
Algarion Getz wrote:
Freya Sertan wrote:
Damn it feels good to be an adult with a job.

* in a Western country.

In my last job, a 6-month internship in Eastern Europe, i earned 0.48$ an hour. So ... ~30h of work for a 1-month EVE sub. (Everyone in Europe has to pay the same 15$/month, only Russians get a special payment plan AFAIK.)

I prefer to earn my Omega time ingame.


/shrug

I don't care where you live. Learn to adult.

New Eden isn't nice. It isn't friendly. It isn't very hospitiable. Good thing there are people here to shoot in the face.

Want to make New Eden a nice place? Try this out.

Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
#64 - 2017-07-12 23:20:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Algarion Getz
Teckos Pech wrote:
Algarion Getz wrote:
Freya Sertan wrote:
Damn it feels good to be an adult with a job.

* in a Western country.

In my last job, a 6-month internship in Eastern Europe, i earned 0.48$ an hour. So ... ~30h of work for a 1-month EVE sub. (Everyone in Europe has to pay the same 15$/month, only Russians get a special payment plan AFAIK.)

I prefer to earn my Omega time ingame.


I am really, really not trying to be a jerk here. But, based on these numbers.....

Using the $15. Based on your $0.48 that means and a person who is indifferent to paying via PLEX (bought in game) vs. paying with RL money he should be willing to grind for 31.25 hours for that PLEX. And using the 1.5 billion ISK number he would need to make at least 48 million ISK/hour.

If you are not willing to grind for that long each month simply to pay for the game...well....

So you are saying that if want to play EVE for "free" i should be willing to grind 31h for 30 days of Omega time? Thats insane. For comparison: A Westerner can earn the $$$ for his sub in like 1h.

I play 20 - 40h per month, i would have to spend pretty much all of my playtime grinding ISK to buy PLEX. Grinding ISK so that i can keep grinding ISK. But i guess that is exaclty what the rich investors and speculators want: Masses of poor players grinding ISK so that they can sit on their piles of PLEX and watch the price go up.


Sigh. Mr Epeen is right, i spend too much time on these forums.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#65 - 2017-07-13 00:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Algarion Getz wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Algarion Getz wrote:
Freya Sertan wrote:
Damn it feels good to be an adult with a job.

* in a Western country.

In my last job, a 6-month internship in Eastern Europe, i earned 0.48$ an hour. So ... ~30h of work for a 1-month EVE sub. (Everyone in Europe has to pay the same 15$/month, only Russians get a special payment plan AFAIK.)

I prefer to earn my Omega time ingame.


I am really, really not trying to be a jerk here. But, based on these numbers.....

Using the $15. Based on your $0.48 that means and a person who is indifferent to paying via PLEX (bought in game) vs. paying with RL money he should be willing to grind for 31.25 hours for that PLEX. And using the 1.5 billion ISK number he would need to make at least 48 million ISK/hour.

If you are not willing to grind for that long each month simply to pay for the game...well....

So you are saying that if want to play EVE for "free" i should be willing to grind 31h for 30 days of Omega time? Thats insane. For comparison: A Westerner can earn the $$$ for his sub in like 1h.

I play 20 - 40h per month, i would have to spend pretty much all of my playtime grinding ISK to buy PLEX. Grinding ISK so that i can keep grinding ISK. But i guess that is exaclty what the rich investors and speculators want: Masses of poor players grinding ISK so that they can sit on their piles of PLEX and watch the price go up.


Sigh. Mr Epeen is right, i spend too much time on these forums.


No, I'm saying that based on the $15 and the hourly rate you get/got paid at that is the maximum number of hours a person indifferent between paying RL money and using PLEX should be willing to rat. You are correct that somebody in a country like the U.S. and Western Europe, Australia, Japan, etc. can earn the same amount of money in a fraction of the time. My point is that if some people are going to look to PLEX to play the game and PLEX is becoming more and more expensive, well that is not good for those people. However, your opportunity cost is also quite low: $0.48/hour.

The price of PLEX has little to nothing to do with speculators. Speculators take advantage discrepancies in information--i.e. if they know something (or think they do) about a given good then they can either buy or (short) sell the good. When the information becomes more widely known the speculator (hopefully) makes money. Speculators and manipulating a market are in fact quite different. And manipulating the PLEX market is not as easy as some here make it out and would entail some risk on the part of the manipulator.

For example, churning where a manipulator puts up lots of buy and sell orders at around the same price to try and create the impression of more activity in the market to try and drive up the price. To do this one would have to put some ISK at risk and it may not work. Pump and dump is one I suspect those people posting, "PLEX will go to X millions in 2 months!" The idea is: buy your PLEX now before the price goes up. That surge in buying could cause the price to go up at which point the person making the post dumps his own stock of PLEX. Related to churning is wash trading...a manipulator buys and sells PLEX over and over to create the impression of more activity in the hopes of driving up prices. One could try this strategy of releasing a rumor on say Reddit or other message boards about how CCP is going to have a big sale during a coming weekend. Some PLEX buyers might hold off on buying PLEX, and this could cause the price to drop as demand flags as a result. Our intrepid rumor monger steps in and buys up PLEX, and when the weekend hits and there is no sale and the price rebounds, he dumps his stock of PLEX.

But note, these are all short term manipulations. To truly corner the market, the long term plan, you'd have to have pretty deep pockets and it would likely be self defeating. Suppose you have deeeeeep pockets. So you decide to corner the PLEX market--i.e. you want to be the one to set the market price for PLEX. So you go out and start buying. But what happens as you start buying up the PLEX? The price goes up. As the price goes up, it becomes more lucrative to buy a PLEX for RL money and sell it in-game. In essence you don't need deep pockets you need infinitely deep pockets. Since nobody has infinitely deep pockets this is not a winning strategy. And after a certain point you are going to have alot of ISK tied up in PLEX...and what happens when you try to unwind that position and sell those PLEX?

You could be like DeBeers as was noted back up stream and sell only a small amount at a time. But that means you'll almost surely be sitting on a pile of PLEX you are never ever going to sell. And recall DeBeers controlled almost all aspects of the supply side of the diamond market. Nobody can completely control the supply side for PLEX. Nobody. Nobody can stop me from buying PLEX from CCP and then selling it in game.

All these stories about people manipulating the price of PLEX are simply hard to believe. Maybe it is happening, but only for short periods of time. The long run rise in PLEX price is almost surely the result of CCP expanding the role of PLEX in the game.

Edit: Another way to put it: at $0.48/hour to earn $15 you'd have to work for 31 hours and 15 minutes. So, that is where the "rat for 31.25 hours" comes from. I'm not saying you should, just noting that based on the pay and price that is how the numbers work out.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Kaphrah
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2017-07-15 20:05:34 UTC
Why do people insult anybody complaining as "whiners"?

I could easily buy my Plexes (if I didnt more or less stop playing since CCP Quants reddit thing, apparently if you earn 500m+/h you are RMTing), the reserves for several years gameplay are there yes. So why do I whine, cry a river, be salty, however all you sad people name what I do?
Because: I hate spending ISK for literally nothing, just because some people think they can hoard thousands of them, or the people that made trillions on SP farms pushing prices with speculation. It isn't adapt or die anymore but the game was pushed to a point where I love/hate it, and I would not spend real money on it, and yes, if nothing changes then stay out forever. No you cant have my stuff.

CCP is a company wanting to make money, therefore wanting to sell plex, right. But at the same time they complain the ingame economy is dying from excess ISK income and nerf that part while fixing it with SKINS would be pretty easy. There are several possibilities to remove this massive use of plexes outside gametime, while even helping the game BUT hey that would reduce income. So they drive the demand higher and higher while even nerfing incomes, I have seen people in Help asking how they can best turn 100$ into skills. For Incarna there was an outrage, now nobody cares, people complaining are pushed aside as whiners. Yeah tell me more to just quit, I exactly know what is coming as answers here.

And all the "grinders dont have a right to play": Yes you are right. But what will happen if all your so called "grinders" quit? Do you really think all the poeple buying plex just do nothing else than farm isk and stay docked? The game is imo in a state that could be better, and all people do is laugh at others again, telling them to quit and get their stuff. All the money in the game is worthless if no-one plays anymore. And just in case some of the people here telling those "grinders" to quit and laugh are not even involved with plexes in any way: How does it affect you in a bad way if CCP restricts the amount of trade-actions for a PLEX? Why is it bad to add a 4 week duration after which a PLEX can't be used anymore? Why is it bad to calm down speculations on an item even essential for some to stay in the game? You are playing a multiplayer, the more people the more fun, again, playing alone is boring.

Because you people don't care. You simply enjoy the rage of others.

BTT: Plex trade restriction or add a timespan in which it can be used. Perfect solutions, noone gets hurt.
Photrius Pyrelius
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2017-07-15 20:47:09 UTC
Nero Jove wrote:
Hmmmm. CCP employs a number of fulltime economists to manage the in game economy.


Really? That's disappointing, I thought it was a player-driven free-market economy. =(
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#68 - 2017-07-15 21:40:24 UTC
Kaphrah wrote:
Why do people insult anybody complaining as "whiners"?

I could easily buy my Plexes (if I didnt more or less stop playing since CCP Quants reddit thing, apparently if you earn 500m+/h you are RMTing), the reserves for several years gameplay are there yes. So why do I whine, cry a river, be salty, however all you sad people name what I do?
Because: I hate spending ISK for literally nothing, just because some people think they can hoard thousands of them, or the people that made trillions on SP farms pushing prices with speculation. It isn't adapt or die anymore but the game was pushed to a point where I love/hate it, and I would not spend real money on it, and yes, if nothing changes then stay out forever. No you cant have my stuff.


If you want CCP to artificially cap PLEX prices you basically are wanting a wealth transfer in game. Anytime somebody wants a price other than the market price there is one side that is going to gain, and another side that has to lose. This kind of lobbying for "political" intervention in a market is inevitably a ploy to gain at somebody else's expense.

This is why people who want CCP to "do something" are looked down, at least by me. These are people who want to something they have not earned and to Hell with those who have to actually pay for it.

As for spending ISK and getting nothing, WITF? I am at a loss and struggling not to call you...well...lets set that aside.

You are getting something. You are getting game time. That clearly has value. If it didn't you would not have parted with either your RL money or your RL time...which at the margin has a value equal to your hourly pay. To sit there and say you get nothing suggests you put $0 value on your time. In which case your employer is way, way over paying you.

Quote:
CCP is a company wanting to make money, therefore wanting to sell plex, right. But at the same time they complain the ingame economy is dying from excess ISK income and nerf that part while fixing it with SKINS would be pretty easy. There are several possibilities to remove this massive use of plexes outside gametime, while even helping the game BUT hey that would reduce income. So they drive the demand higher and higher while even nerfing incomes, I have seen people in Help asking how they can best turn 100$ into skills. For Incarna there was an outrage, now nobody cares, people complaining are pushed aside as whiners. Yeah tell me more to just quit, I exactly know what is coming as answers here.


The in-game economy is not dying. They noted that the kind of ISK creation that they saw due to carrier/super ratting was way to high and it would inevitably lead to inflation which if not checked could lead to an inflationary spiral.

Your "fix it with skins" would work how? Ratchet up the price of skins? Well, people always have the option of not buying skins right? And even if they did start buying skins with that kind of ISK they'll soon drive up the price. What is the other options here? Force people to buy skins at a set price? How is that different than leveling an arbitrary tax, or simply nerfing rat bounties? People wouldn't be here complaining all butthurt and such? I'm guessing that they'd have to buy a set number of skins at a set price simple to sink ISK out of the game would annoy them...and at the same time, CCP loses because now they aren't buying skins via PLEX.

And lets completely set aside the fact that managing the money supply in this kind of manner has pretty much never worked. The real world experience of central banks is one of failures to adjust the money supply to the changing economic conditions. Interestingly CCP has created a monetary system that is not based on a fiat currency, but is actually a synthetic commodity backed currency not unlike bitcoin. The problem is that when CCP changed the mechanics for fighters they made the creation of ISK considerably easier. Quite simply it had to be fixed.

Quote:
BTT: Plex trade restriction or add a timespan in which it can be used. Perfect solutions, noone gets hurt.


Except those holding PLEX. See there you go...you want to benefit at other's people expense.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#69 - 2017-07-15 22:21:02 UTC
Photrius Pyrelius wrote:
Nero Jove wrote:
Hmmmm. CCP employs a number of fulltime economists to manage the in game economy.


Really? That's disappointing, I thought it was a player-driven free-market economy. =(


They did have economist on staff, CCP EyjoG (aka, Dr. Eyjolfur Eyjo Gudmundsson). They have an analytics department and they publish the monthly economic reports. How much CCP intervenes in markets is not really known. There was one known intervention years ago, and players were informed at FanFest well after the intervention.

However, here is something that Dr. Eyjo said in an interveiw,

“So when players are able to make a dent in the market by moving prices in a direction of their liking, to me that is a part of PvP,” says Dr Eyjo. “It is player interaction and they are putting a lot of effort into making it happen. It creates excitement and so on within the game, so everything that has to do with player trading – as long as they are using the tools in the way that they are supposed to be used in the game, then I see nothing against players trying to do it. And I challenge them to do it, simply because the size of the EVE eoncomy has become so big now that anyone trying to make a dent in the market overall will have to put a lot of effort into it.”--emphasis added

In other words, if somebody is going to manipulate a market in EVE then they will have to work at it and almost surely put alot of ISK and/or in game resources at risk.

Take for example this constant notion that there is a Cabal™ of players manipulating PLEX prices. Let's suppose that is true.

Suppose the current market clearing price, absent this Cabal™ would be half the current PLEX price. The current price for PLEX in the Forge is 3,066,647.90 ISK and the price should be 1,533,323.95 ISK. So the question is...why aren't people buying PLEX for RL money and cashing in on these fabulously high prices? There is a huge premium to be had in doing so.

See, for this scheme to work the Cabal™ has to be influencing the price by buying up PLEX and driving the price up, right? Well this creates a significant premium for people who buy PLEX for RL money and sell them for ISK. It is essentially like a sale for PLEX.

A sale you get 10% or 15% or 20% more PLEX for your RL dollars. Now thanks to the Cabal™ in our thought experiment here you get 100% more PLEX!

That is, suppose without the Cabal™ you could buy 100 PLEX and sell them and get 153,332,395 ISK. But now with the Cabal™ you only have to buy 50 PLEX to get the exact same amount of ISK. Or if you buy 100 the amount of ISK you get is exactly the same as if you had bout 200 PLEX without the Cabal™!

So are people not out buying PLEX and driving the price back down due to the artificial scarcity? No. Why?

Before you answer with something like, "Well...maybe people don't have that kind of RL money!" Consider that perhaps there is no Cabal™, the price is not artificially above it's market clearing price....in which case, there is no benefit to buying PLEX for RL money and selling them.....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Kaphrah
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#70 - 2017-07-16 02:42:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaphrah
First, when I pay prices way above the real value then I get nothing for a cetain percentage of the money I paid. And as long as people buy those for hoarding and maybe sell them in the next ice age this is a mechanic I can't understand.

I dont want them to cap the price, but you can only sell a plex once and after you buy it it is gone after like 4 weeks whatever. This way the people sitting on thousands of them (the old ones, not the 500 mini plex thing) wont lose them, they can still sell them. But they wont buy thousands more for the mountain.

Look at it however you want but adding thing after thing using more plexes on the market, letting ghost training stay for ages and skill injectors is CCP driving up the price plus the already existing goldhoarders, and having plex raise to several billions will not only make poor people stop playing but others that simply dont want to accept the effects and intentions CCP had with that price.
Tell me to leave the game then? Not what I really want to do, but what I ultimately have to do as I do not want to play just for some extremely rich jita trading bots to get fatter. For your thing why there are not a lot of people buying plexes and pushing the price down, maybe there are a lot less people overall supplying plex, I dont know, maybe the "440+60 FREE!" thing is bad marketing, who knows, who cares. And MAYBE your Cabal™ has a value a lot higher than you think, the complete market value for plex 3 years ago or so was 2T, and that is not that impossible for a single person to have, having the "how to rat afk with 50 VNI reddit guides" in mind, er even some hundred acc ghost training/legit skillfarm. Also you believe that with higher plex prices the supply follows, maybe it does for a small part, but I don't think the plex supply is fluctuating that much, it's probably rather constant, no matter the price slowly going up. **Not to even mention the effect circling as people buy more plexes ingame to avoid paying more next month PLUS the supply probably going back because less plex needed for the same isk.

And yes, there is more to this, I am very disappointed by the way the game took since 2014 but thats another story.
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2017-07-17 02:21:26 UTC
Kaphrah wrote:
First, when I pay prices way above the real value then I get nothing for a cetain percentage of the money I paid. And as long as people buy those for hoarding and maybe sell them in the next ice age this is a mechanic I can't understand.

I dont want them to cap the price, but you can only sell a plex once and after you buy it it is gone after like 4 weeks whatever. This way the people sitting on thousands of them (the old ones, not the 500 mini plex thing) wont lose them, they can still sell them. But they wont buy thousands more for the mountain.



Speculators can't stop new plex being bought with real cash and put on the market. The price ultimately reflects 100% of what people are willing to grind to get one - ie you are complaining about the class of players you belong too, nothing more, nothing less. Really funny to see someone whining about themselves.

I'd rather grind progress on my character and spend 10 minutes working for the sub, and if more people chose that, then the price would fall, and speculators would lose their shirts. ie its your behavior, not CCPs that speculators profit from.

Quote:


Look at it however you want but adding thing after thing using more plexes on the market, letting ghost training stay for ages and skill injectors is CCP driving up the price plus the already existing goldhoarders, and having plex raise to several billions will not only make poor people stop playing but others that simply dont want to accept the effects and intentions CCP had with that price.



Ghost training as it stood was an efficiency bug that reduced the amount of a plex consumed to produce a skill point.

Removing ghost training may of course remove one limit on plex isk price growth (since subs are now required), but how it actually plays out also depends on how people grind up the isk to buy injectors.

Quote:


Tell me to leave the game then? Not what I really want to do, but what I ultimately have to do as I do not want to play just for some extremely rich jita trading bots to get fatter.



I spend about 10 minutes a month working to pay for an eve sub, and I spend about 1 hour a month paying to maintain my bicycle, which takes twice as long to get anywhere as a car (for me a total of about 1 hour extra a week). I can't possibly pay for a car with the 1 hour a week of work, not having one costs me, and honestly I don't want to play eve for 15 hours a month to stand still when I could work for 10 minutes and play eve for 15 hours for fun. I'm betting your life is full of life calculations that are pretty inefficient, which is you have 10-15 hours to grind a sub, but not 10 minutes to an hour to work for one.

Quote:


For your thing why there are not a lot of people buying plexes and pushing the price down, maybe there are a lot less people overall supplying plex, I dont know, maybe the "440+60 FREE!" thing is bad marketing, who knows, who cares. And MAYBE your Cabal™ has a value a lot higher than you think, the complete market value for plex 3 years ago or so was 2T, and that is not that impossible for a single person to have, having the "how to rat afk with 50 VNI reddit guides" in mind, er even some hundred acc ghost training/legit skillfarm. Also you believe that with higher plex prices the supply follows, maybe it does for a small part, but I don't think the plex supply is fluctuating that much, it's probably rather constant, no matter the price slowly going up. **Not to even mention the effect circling as people buy more plexes ingame to avoid paying more next month PLUS the supply probably going back because less plex needed for the same isk.

And yes, there is more to this, I am very disappointed by the way the game took since 2014 but thats another story.


They have made many missteps with EVE, but you can't look up how to design eve on stack overflow, and there are many other mistakes they don't make that well meaning developers could make, ie we only get to sample and give feedback on one of a billion possible paths. IMO focus on important things, not grizzling about people like yourself bidding up plex "too high".
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#72 - 2017-07-17 04:16:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Coralas wrote:
Kaphrah wrote:
First, when I pay prices way above the real value then I get nothing for a cetain percentage of the money I paid. And as long as people buy those for hoarding and maybe sell them in the next ice age this is a mechanic I can't understand.

I dont want them to cap the price, but you can only sell a plex once and after you buy it it is gone after like 4 weeks whatever. This way the people sitting on thousands of them (the old ones, not the 500 mini plex thing) wont lose them, they can still sell them. But they wont buy thousands more for the mountain.



Speculators can't stop new plex being bought with real cash and put on the market. The price ultimately reflects 100% of what people are willing to grind to get one - ie you are complaining about the class of players you belong too, nothing more, nothing less. Really funny to see someone whining about themselves.

I'd rather grind progress on my character and spend 10 minutes working for the sub, and if more people chose that, then the price would fall, and speculators would lose their shirts. ie its your behavior, not CCPs that speculators profit from.

Quote:


Look at it however you want but adding thing after thing using more plexes on the market, letting ghost training stay for ages and skill injectors is CCP driving up the price plus the already existing goldhoarders, and having plex raise to several billions will not only make poor people stop playing but others that simply dont want to accept the effects and intentions CCP had with that price.



Ghost training as it stood was an efficiency bug that reduced the amount of a plex consumed to produce a skill point.

Removing ghost training may of course remove one limit on plex isk price growth (since subs are now required), but how it actually plays out also depends on how people grind up the isk to buy injectors.

Quote:


Tell me to leave the game then? Not what I really want to do, but what I ultimately have to do as I do not want to play just for some extremely rich jita trading bots to get fatter.



I spend about 10 minutes a month working to pay for an eve sub, and I spend about 1 hour a month paying to maintain my bicycle, which takes twice as long to get anywhere as a car (for me a total of about 1 hour extra a week). I can't possibly pay for a car with the 1 hour a week of work, not having one costs me, and honestly I don't want to play eve for 15 hours a month to stand still when I could work for 10 minutes and play eve for 15 hours for fun. I'm betting your life is full of life calculations that are pretty inefficient, which is you have 10-15 hours to grind a sub, but not 10 minutes to an hour to work for one.

Quote:


For your thing why there are not a lot of people buying plexes and pushing the price down, maybe there are a lot less people overall supplying plex, I dont know, maybe the "440+60 FREE!" thing is bad marketing, who knows, who cares. And MAYBE your Cabal™ has a value a lot higher than you think, the complete market value for plex 3 years ago or so was 2T, and that is not that impossible for a single person to have, having the "how to rat afk with 50 VNI reddit guides" in mind, er even some hundred acc ghost training/legit skillfarm. Also you believe that with higher plex prices the supply follows, maybe it does for a small part, but I don't think the plex supply is fluctuating that much, it's probably rather constant, no matter the price slowly going up. **Not to even mention the effect circling as people buy more plexes ingame to avoid paying more next month PLUS the supply probably going back because less plex needed for the same isk.

And yes, there is more to this, I am very disappointed by the way the game took since 2014 but thats another story.


They have made many missteps with EVE, but you can't look up how to design eve on stack overflow, and there are many other mistakes they don't make that well meaning developers could make, ie we only get to sample and give feedback on one of a billion possible paths. IMO focus on important things, not grizzling about people like yourself bidding up plex "too high".


Pretty much agree with all of Coralas' response.

That and value is subjective. How much you value something depends on you. Maybe you think PLEX should cost no more than 900 million ISK. Fine. But if that is the case then stop buying them when the cost of PLEX goes over 1.5 billion. If you keep buying PLEX at 1.5 billion clearly you value them more than 1.5 billion ISK and your whining is just an attempt to get something for nothing--i.e. rent seeking. I have no sympathy with that. **** off.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Maxi dela Tierra
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2017-07-17 07:59:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Maxi dela Tierra
Coralas wrote:

I spend about 10 minutes a month working to pay for an eve sub, and I spend about 1 hour a month paying to maintain my bicycle, which takes twice as long to get anywhere as a car (for me a total of about 1 hour extra a week). I can't possibly pay for a car with the 1 hour a week of work, not having one costs me, and honestly I don't want to play eve for 15 hours a month to stand still when I could work for 10 minutes and play eve for 15 hours for fun. I'm betting your life is full of life calculations that are pretty inefficient, which is you have 10-15 hours to grind a sub, but not 10 minutes to an hour to work for one.


Not everybody makes 90 bucks per hour mate. And usually you cannot say Ok i just work like 2 paid extra hours per month to pay my sub. You get your monthly paycheck and ifs a small one even 15$ subfee plays a role at the end of the month.

(I am aware that one could better spend the 15h grinding per month to qualify for a better paid job. that would also be my opinion. on the other side things are not always that simple)
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#74 - 2017-07-17 08:09:29 UTC
Eh. Its a sign that EVE is dying a slow death. More and more people are deciding they'd rather not spend money on EVE so more people go the PLEX route as currently there aren't many alternatives.

But SC 3.0 is coming out in August.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Rudolphus Indomitus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#75 - 2017-07-17 10:02:51 UTC
I find plex to expensive to buy from CCP so that I can pay for you to play for free.
so in my opinion CCP must make plex cheaper to buy from them or increase of Isk for plex
2 billion for 500 seems me a fair amount
Maxi dela Tierra
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2017-07-17 12:47:40 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
But SC 3.0 is coming out in August.


As if this alltime next generation gfx tech demo would lure away a single Eve player ... Lol
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2017-07-17 13:15:28 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Eh. Its a sign that EVE is dying a slow death. More and more people are deciding they'd rather not spend money on EVE so more people go the PLEX route as currently there aren't many alternatives.

But SC 3.0 is coming out in August.


Its an alpha. Its months behind from their first timetable for 3.0 alpha and progression is going to be buggy and then undoubtedly wiped. Its going to be followed by betas which will be months behind whatever timetables they proffer at 3.0 time, buggy and then wiped.

I have thus made made the same decision I made in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017, which is wait until they have a game and buy it then.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#78 - 2017-07-17 17:21:23 UTC
Kaphrah wrote:
First, when I pay prices way above the real value then I get nothing for a cetain percentage of the money I paid. And as long as people buy those for hoarding and maybe sell them in the next ice age this is a mechanic I can't understand.


Again, WITF?

Are you serious. If you have a large amount of ISK in your wallet what are you going to do with it? Invest it? Where? Why not PLEX? PLEX has a long history of an upward trend to its price. It is a very good investment vehicle and puts that ISK back out there to those who want it more than the person looking for an investment.

Quote:
I dont want them to cap the price, but you can only sell a plex once and after you buy it it is gone after like 4 weeks whatever. This way the people sitting on thousands of them (the old ones, not the 500 mini plex thing) wont lose them, they can still sell them. But they wont buy thousands more for the mountain.


This would put a cap on the price and would undoubtedly cause the price in the current market to drop as people holding PLEX as an investment dump them on the market. So yes, you want stuff you have not earned. You are asking for a special discount. To be quite frank you do not deserve it. You do not deserve it because you are basing your entire idea on ignorance of how economies and markets work.

Quote:
Look at it however you want but adding thing after thing using more plexes on the market, letting ghost training stay for ages and skill injectors is CCP driving up the price plus the already existing goldhoarders, and having plex raise to several billions will not only make poor people stop playing but others that simply dont want to accept the effects and intentions CCP had with that price.


Ghost training was not around since forever. And as has been pointed out the effect on PLEX prices is far more ambiguous. People utilizing that exploit did not need PLEX to earn SP, so that would put downward pressure on PLEX. Granted, with the extra ISK people might have bought PLEX as a long term investment which would drive up the price. The overall effect is far from straight forward. And adding more uses to PLEX that is a good thing for people who ISK rich, but RL income poor. Nothing is without both benefits and costs. But like a child you sit there and complain only about the costs to you and how everyone else should be some how made to incur those costs other than you.

Quote:
Tell me to leave the game then? Not what I really want to do, but what I ultimately have to do as I do not want to play just for some extremely rich jita trading bots to get fatter. For your thing why there are not a lot of people buying plexes and pushing the price down, maybe there are a lot less people overall supplying plex, I dont know, maybe the "440+60 FREE!" thing is bad marketing, who knows, who cares. And MAYBE your Cabal™ has a value a lot higher than you think, the complete market value for plex 3 years ago or so was 2T, and that is not that impossible for a single person to have, having the "how to rat afk with 50 VNI reddit guides" in mind, er even some hundred acc ghost training/legit skillfarm. Also you believe that with higher plex prices the supply follows, maybe it does for a small part, but I don't think the plex supply is fluctuating that much, it's probably rather constant, no matter the price slowly going up. **Not to even mention the effect circling as people buy more plexes ingame to avoid paying more next month PLUS the supply probably going back because less plex needed for the same isk.


Wow, there is alot of ignorance to unpack here...might have to make a second post.

First off, Jita traders provide a very valuable service. They provide the stuff you want in game. Ships, modules, etc. Do you get pissed off when you go the grocery store and have to pay $50 for several bags of food? According to your logic you should. As you pass the store manager you should be hurling an insult at him. That he is some sort of ****-heel for getting fat off your need for food.

If the Cabal™ had driven the price up even higher that would provide an even larger incentive to be buying PLEX and selling them. You'll basically be transferring their ISK to your wallet via such transactions. The point is, which I raised several posts back, is not only would the Cabal™ need deep pockets they'd essentially need infinitely deep pockets. It is an even dumber strategy than the Martingale Betting Strategy in that the Cabal™ is constantly vulnerable to a speculative attack.

For the Cabal™ to raise the price they have to own the supply side. If supply is not changing that is evidence against the Cabal™.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#79 - 2017-07-17 17:27:20 UTC
Maxi dela Tierra wrote:
Coralas wrote:

I spend about 10 minutes a month working to pay for an eve sub, and I spend about 1 hour a month paying to maintain my bicycle, which takes twice as long to get anywhere as a car (for me a total of about 1 hour extra a week). I can't possibly pay for a car with the 1 hour a week of work, not having one costs me, and honestly I don't want to play eve for 15 hours a month to stand still when I could work for 10 minutes and play eve for 15 hours for fun. I'm betting your life is full of life calculations that are pretty inefficient, which is you have 10-15 hours to grind a sub, but not 10 minutes to an hour to work for one.


Not everybody makes 90 bucks per hour mate. And usually you cannot say Ok i just work like 2 paid extra hours per month to pay my sub. You get your monthly paycheck and ifs a small one even 15$ subfee plays a role at the end of the month.

(I am aware that one could better spend the 15h grinding per month to qualify for a better paid job. that would also be my opinion. on the other side things are not always that simple)


Okay, here is what I read in this comment....

The game is getting more expensive for you to play....so you want a discount? Me to pay your sub? Coralas to pay your sub? Both of us to fund your game somehow? What?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2017-07-17 17:29:44 UTC
Rudolphus Indomitus wrote:
I find plex to expensive to buy from CCP so that I can pay for you to play for free.
so in my opinion CCP must make plex cheaper to buy from them or increase of Isk for plex
2 billion for 500 seems me a fair amount


Look, another person who thinks they are a special snowflake and should have their video game time subsidized.

I want to buy a vacation home, but it is too expensive. I want everyone here to help me afford it. Roll

[/sarcasm]

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online