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[June] Fighter Damage Reduction

First post First post First post
Author
FubukiYsera
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2301 - 2017-07-02 22:19:10 UTC
rorqual nerf
carrıers nerf
süpers nerf
all shıps nerf
all moduls nerf
everythıng nerf

result : eve onlıne ıs dead

did u know süper traın tıme ???
rorqual traın tıme
ı spend real Money for my game tıme ı dont need ısk for plex but ın last 1 years all chance ıs bullshet and thıs topıc ıs suck. nerf nerf nerf.... enough... enough ccp... dont touch thıs game If you want to do something add to new shıp modül system npc type etc... read to forum page. lısten to player.. not your self

HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
#2302 - 2017-07-03 06:27:04 UTC
I am pretty sure, they will keep implementing something new... we pay real money to skill it faster and after that, we gonna pay real money again to extract the skill points, because they are useless.

Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
My Other Laboratory is a Distillery
#2303 - 2017-07-03 17:36:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
Freeman Kurt wrote:
You say that traders take the isk and carriers don't but if ccp is pointing that one percent is earning bigger rewards with isk, why not go for the traders as well. They are the one percent because they have the most isk over everyone else in the game right now. The traders should get nerfed not carriers and The carrier ratters are not rich like the traders are

The concern isn't that too few players are getting too much ISK, it's that too much new ISK is being added to the economy and the small group of players are an easier target than larger groups. Ratting makes new ISK out of thin air and is the largest ISK faucet; trading takes ISK out of the game in the form of tax and NPC broker fees and is the largest ISK sink. Why would they nerf the people doing the most to fight the problem? Also any kind of nerf to trading will hurt small traders exponentially more than the top traders who control whole markets and don't have to compete as much. If anything it will help the big traders by making it harder for anyone else to approach a level where they could compete.
Valdr Auduin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2304 - 2017-07-04 01:08:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Valdr Auduin
mining makes new isk out of thin air, hence their nerf of the rorqual

what the real problem is, and we've run around this bush more than a dozen times in this thread alone, is that the isk is being created faster than it's being destroyed

CCP clamping down on revenue streams isn't solving the problem, they need to promote expense activities, which means wars

what promotes wars? territory fights, raiding supply lines and resourcing operations

    so, I see two keypoints in this problem, three technically:
  • Fozzie SOV needs a 'balance pass' or twelve
  • Moon Mining Complexes are coming up and everyone is getting blue balls
  • Citadels are too easy to install and/or too hard to remove


That's it, that's really what I see it boiling down to after all this conversation. Sudden thought: what if NPC factions bought things off the player market? Literal CCP-controlled buy-bots programmed with a timer or something that bought at an established floor/ceiling price (set by CCP employees because any pure AI mechanism can be gamed) with some variation metric to give it that small illusion of organic behavior. Hmm, wait, but that doesn't destroy isk per-say, it just creates an outflow of product at a presumably below market valuation to act as a small firebreak against player-created runs- it destroys isk, but only in a sideways fashion.
Freeman Kurt
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2305 - 2017-07-04 07:00:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Freeman Kurt
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Freeman Kurt wrote:
You say that traders take the isk and carriers don't but if ccp is pointing that one percent is earning bigger rewards with isk, why not go for the traders as well. They are the one percent because they have the most isk over everyone else in the game right now. The traders should get nerfed not carriers and The carrier ratters are not rich like the traders are

The concern isn't that too few players are getting too much ISK, it's that too much new ISK is being added to the economy and the small group of players are an easier target than larger groups. Ratting makes new ISK out of thin air and is the largest ISK faucet; trading takes ISK out of the game in the form of tax and NPC broker fees and is the largest ISK sink. Why would they nerf the people doing the most to fight the problem? Also any kind of nerf to trading will hurt small traders exponentially more than the top traders who control whole markets and don't have to compete as much. If anything it will help the big traders by making it harder for anyone else to approach a level where they could compete.



CCP does and does not care about the economy in this game and the employees, players, and I don't know how to fix it. They know we as players want this economy to be fixed in game by being able to plex our accounts inside the game, so they don't care about the economy and this problem. They know players can make, generate, and take isk in the game, so we can play this game for free, and they will care about the economy and this problem. The story goes like that and it will not change. They haven't been doing the best and that is ok every company makes a mistake here and there.



What ccp is trying to do is make players and I generating isk through buying more of their plex while their point of view and opinion is that nothing we do inside this game will and should be enough to get our ships back, so we can have an incentive to sell our plex in game to cover our ship losses and that this will solve all our problems and they will compound the problem further by making us pay for our yearly subscription. This means they will use plex as their little extra asset to get more money out of the game and This means they will continue in the future to nerf ships like the vexor navy issue, Ishtars, carriers, and rorquals because they are prime targets for making isk in the game right now and soon it will be be DED sites and so on....


CCP you want to nerf carriers by 100 percent and then stop the nerfs half way when you get complaints. No you put that damage back the way it was originally or you stick with your changes all the way through, so we know who's side you are really on. Are you on the customers complaining side or are you on your own side?



CCP stop this! CCP don't do it! And CCP listen to your customers and the people on these forums

Thank you,

Freeman Kurt
Tessa Sage
Long Pig Luncheon Meat
#2306 - 2017-07-05 03:11:07 UTC
Valdr Auduin wrote:
what the real problem is, and we've run around this bush more than a dozen times in this thread alone, is that the isk is being created faster than it's being destroyed

CCP clamping down on revenue streams isn't solving the problem, they need to promote expense activities, which means wars.


It's not just about wars, it is the ceded space: one side laying claim to another's does not change the potential flow of ISK, only where it pools. If the game has to course correct on account of overfarming NPC kills, let the NPCs grind sov and reduce the playerbase's pie.
Valdr Auduin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2307 - 2017-07-05 07:52:22 UTC
Tessa Sage wrote:
Valdr Auduin wrote:
what the real problem is, and we've run around this bush more than a dozen times in this thread alone, is that the isk is being created faster than it's being destroyed

CCP clamping down on revenue streams isn't solving the problem, they need to promote expense activities, which means wars.


It's not just about wars, it is the ceded space: one side laying claim to another's does not change the potential flow of ISK, only where it pools. If the game has to course correct on account of overfarming NPC kills, let the NPCs grind sov and reduce the playerbase's pie.


I made a few posts about having empire space try to expand into nullsec at the corps' and alliances' expense, it'd create a minimum of activity and let CCP take a more active hand in breaking down calcified territory that fails to move content. That might also help clean out the excess citadels, having NPC cleaners roving through, but that'd need some careful work- then again, the worst they could do in retaliation is siege the markets until concord and random militias roving through bleeds them dry. It'd be a **** move and would put the final nail in the coffin of "end-game content", but I dunno, it might be good for the game, I can't say.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
My Other Laboratory is a Distillery
#2308 - 2017-07-05 17:23:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
Valdr Auduin wrote:
Tessa Sage wrote:
Valdr Auduin wrote:
what the real problem is, and we've run around this bush more than a dozen times in this thread alone, is that the isk is being created faster than it's being destroyed

CCP clamping down on revenue streams isn't solving the problem, they need to promote expense activities, which means wars.


It's not just about wars, it is the ceded space: one side laying claim to another's does not change the potential flow of ISK, only where it pools. If the game has to course correct on account of overfarming NPC kills, let the NPCs grind sov and reduce the playerbase's pie.


I made a few posts about having empire space try to expand into nullsec at the corps' and alliances' expense, it'd create a minimum of activity and let CCP take a more active hand in breaking down calcified territory that fails to move content. That might also help clean out the excess citadels, having NPC cleaners roving through, but that'd need some careful work- then again, the worst they could do in retaliation is siege the markets until concord and random militias roving through bleeds them dry. It'd be a **** move and would put the final nail in the coffin of "end-game content", but I dunno, it might be good for the game, I can't say.

Anything that puts the final nail in the coffin of "end-game content" also puts a pretty huge nail in the coffin of many players' hopes and dreams. A lot of us started playing with dreams of joining an alliance and forging our empire, eventually flying supers and titans, and participating in these epic giant space battles. CCP has been repeatedly attacking that dream on multiple fronts: sov changes that promote isolation and lack of interaction, citadels that promote lack of interaction, jump fatigue that promotes lack of interaction, making supercaps cheap and accessible so they're no longer as special, nerfing anything appealing into the ground and leaving people with cumulative centuries of wasted training across the playerbase, and more. Some players with that dream like me have been holding on, hoping things get better. If CCP finally kills that dream a lot of players are going to leave and many more won't join the game in the first place.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2309 - 2017-07-05 22:56:15 UTC
Valdr Auduin wrote:
Tessa Sage wrote:
Valdr Auduin wrote:
what the real problem is, and we've run around this bush more than a dozen times in this thread alone, is that the isk is being created faster than it's being destroyed

CCP clamping down on revenue streams isn't solving the problem, they need to promote expense activities, which means wars.


It's not just about wars, it is the ceded space: one side laying claim to another's does not change the potential flow of ISK, only where it pools. If the game has to course correct on account of overfarming NPC kills, let the NPCs grind sov and reduce the playerbase's pie.


I made a few posts about having empire space try to expand into nullsec at the corps' and alliances' expense, it'd create a minimum of activity and let CCP take a more active hand in breaking down calcified territory that fails to move content. That might also help clean out the excess citadels, having NPC cleaners roving through, but that'd need some careful work- then again, the worst they could do in retaliation is siege the markets until concord and random militias roving through bleeds them dry. It'd be a **** move and would put the final nail in the coffin of "end-game content", but I dunno, it might be good for the game, I can't say.

I'm not sure you understand what "nulsec" is and how it works (or doesn't, as the case may be).
How would making nulsec safer by turning it into empire space create activity? Yes the carebear factor (the single largest group in the game) would have somewhere new to run missions without risk (aside from CODE which is really no risk if you're smart).

What nulsec needs (what the game needs) is more content and less interference from Devs - Manipulating Plex and letting prices run wild so CCP can attempt to make more money out of a limited number of players. Sov mechanics that would be better suited to a game called clowns and fairies, where magic wands and ECM is the key to "winning" a system. Nerfs to everything that is used by those who do make an effort to go out looking for fights. Nerfs to income from carriers because 1% of 1% of players were making too much isk. Nerfs to Rorquals because ONE region (owned by Goons) mines more ore than the rest of TQ combined).

These things aren't "balanced" in any way - CCP Employees created these problems (and were warned about most of it before they were released) and are now punishing those who aren't part of the problem (smaller groups and individuals) and not "fixing" anything.
Those who rat in Supers are still making dank isk while those who carrier rat are now better off running a couple of AfkTars. As for the Nerf to fighters, it worked wonderfully - Smaller groups don't field carriers in PVP now because the large groups just bring more to make up for the lower damage. Devs have gone out of their way to reintroduce N+1 on an even larger scale than it ever has been before.
The guy who only owns and runs one rorqual with a couple of exhumers is making a lot less per hour, while those in Delve (the second highest region for mining is also Goons according to a Dev graph) with 40 or 50 or more Rorquals are still raking in dank isk and out mining everyone else on TQ combined. And they do it in relative safety due to sov mechanics and isolation (Delve is a **** place to get to with fiirepower enough to take out a fleet of rorquals) and even if you do manage to kill half of some guys fleet, he has replaced them by the next day and is back out there..
A fix for one man fleets of Rorquals is quite simple - Limit the "Mine Repeatedly" to 5 minutes at a time - This would force Rorquals to be actively managed, I'm not sure many would want to alt tab through 40 or 50 characters every 5 minutes to reactivate drones. At the moment you need to check your Rorquals about every 30 minutes, making it too easy for them to be multi boxed.

I'm not going to get into Citadel mechanics, I think everyone who has ever interacted with one knows how broken they are.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Veritas Totient
Infinity Avenger
Snuffed Out
#2310 - 2017-07-06 17:44:43 UTC
I think that Networked Sensor Array should disallow move like bastion/siege/triage.
This would be a good nerf for those PVE carriers.
Benje en Divalone
#2311 - 2017-07-06 18:21:39 UTC
Valdr Auduin wrote:
mining makes new isk out of thin air, hence their nerf of the rorqual.

Mining does no such thing.

It makes raw materials (ore,ice,gas) out of thin air which is a similar but entirely different faucet. The natural sink for mining's output is getting stuff blown up which this game is (supposedly) very good at.

ISK's faucets are completely overwhelming its sinks and the only metric out of equilibrium is bounty payouts.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
My Other Laboratory is a Distillery
#2312 - 2017-07-06 18:29:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
Veritas Totient wrote:
I think that Networked Sensor Array should disallow move like bastion/siege/triage.
This would be a good nerf for those PVE carriers.

No, it would completely kill a majority of PvP carriers while barely affecting PvE. In PvE you can fit 2-3 sensor boosters, not fit a cloak, lock targets well before you need them, and sitting still isn't that bad. In PvP you can't afford to use slots on sensor boosters, you might need a cloak, and you definitely need to be able to lock targets quickly and get out quickly because you don't have any of a dread's strengths that let it sit there and commit to a fight.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2313 - 2017-07-07 08:44:34 UTC
Veritas Totient wrote:
I think that Networked Sensor Array should disallow move like bastion/siege/triage.
This would be a good nerf for those PVE carriers.

And what happens to them when in a fight? How does the Sensor array tell the difference between fighting NPC's and other players? OR is the thought that Carriers should be stationary and just die.
Remember the Network Sensor array give no bonuses to anything other than lock speed and targets locked, where as Bastion, Siege and Triage all give tank bonuses.
Silly suggestions are just silly.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
#2314 - 2017-07-08 22:35:22 UTC
FubukiYsera wrote:
rorqual nerf
carrıers nerf
süpers nerf
all shıps nerf
all moduls nerf
everythıng nerf

result : eve onlıne ıs dead

did u know süper traın tıme ???
rorqual traın tıme
ı spend real Money for my game tıme ı dont need ısk for plex but ın last 1 years all chance ıs bullshet and thıs topıc ıs suck. nerf nerf nerf.... enough... enough ccp... dont touch thıs game If you want to do something add to new shıp modül system npc type etc... read to forum page. lısten to player.. not your self



Maybe instead of mewling incomprehensibly, you could explain how allowing a grossly outsized influx of new ISK to persist is good for the game and the economy.

I'll wait.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
#2315 - 2017-07-09 02:26:59 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Freeman Kurt wrote:


CCP does and does not care about the economy in this game and the employees, players, and I don't know how to fix it. They know we as players want this economy to be fixed in game by being able to plex our accounts inside the game, so they don't care about the economy and this problem. They know players can make, generate, and take isk in the game, so we can play this game for free, and they will care about the economy and this problem. The story goes like that and it will not change. They haven't been doing the best and that is ok every company makes a mistake here and there.


What ccp is trying to do is make players and I generating isk through buying more of their plex while their point of view and opinion is that nothing we do inside this game will and should be enough to get our ships back, so we can have an incentive to sell our plex in game to cover our ship losses and that this will solve all our problems and they will compound the problem further by making us pay for our yearly subscription. This means they will use plex as their little extra asset to get more money out of the game and This means they will continue in the future to nerf ships like the vexor navy issue, Ishtars, carriers, and rorquals because they are prime targets for making isk in the game right now and soon it will be be DED sites and so on....


CCP you want to nerf carriers by 100 percent and then stop the nerfs half way when you get complaints. No you put that damage back the way it was originally or you stick with your changes all the way through, so we know who's side you are really on. Are you on the customers complaining side or are you on your own side?



CCP stop this! CCP don't do it! And CCP listen to your customers and the people on these forums

Thank you,

Freeman Kurt


Yeah, hi, I have a question.

First, there are some things you seem to be unaware of.

A: For you to be able to buy PLEX with ISK, someone else has to be willing to buy PLEX with RL money and sell them.
B: The amount of ISK entering the game has steadily been on the rise.
C: The consumer price index has traditionally tended to decrease or, at least, failed to rise as quickly as the money supply.

The net effect of B+C is that everyone not only has more money, but the "spending power" of that money (or the relative value of money-earning activity) has grown relative to the cost of in-game goods.


So my question is: If this situation is allowed to progress to the point that everyone has more than enough money to fund their in-game activity, who's going to sell you the affordable PLEX you seem to believe you're entitled to?

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Valdr Auduin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2316 - 2017-07-09 13:00:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Valdr Auduin
Benje en Divalone wrote:
Valdr Auduin wrote:
mining makes new isk out of thin air, hence their nerf of the rorqual.

Mining does no such thing.

It makes raw materials (ore,ice,gas) out of thin air which is a similar but entirely different faucet. The natural sink for mining's output is getting stuff blown up which this game is (supposedly) very good at.

ISK's faucets are completely overwhelming its sinks and the only metric out of equilibrium is bounty payouts.

The month's numbers are in, 63 Trillion and change in bounties and only a mild adjustment in the velocity of isk and a general dropoff in rates of increase otherwise. Maybe they should just nerf the payout on bounties in general?

ED: Or y'know, figure out a way to get the alliances fighting each other seriously again.
Ace Aideron
Red Falcon Group
#2317 - 2017-07-09 13:18:59 UTC
I would like to suggest the following ideas with regard to addressing game balance issues:

1. Never nerf ships or modules or skills. By reducing the capabilities of ships and modules, you are purposefully devaluing things that players have either worked hard for in-game, or paid real money for, or both. Nerfing, by its nature, has caused a lot of player heartache and animosity toward CCP. No nerfs also reflects the real world better, which is a plus in Eve. (If I buy an expensive drilling ship in the real world, all kinds of problems might turn up with regard to the sites I can mine or how much I can sell my ore for, but the ship itself doesn't change).

2. Address serious game balance issues in more creative ways. If capitals are earning "too much" isk, then consider things like making the sites harder when a capital is involved, as in w-space. Or maybe sites respawn at increasingly slower rates. Or maybe Concord decides to pay bounties on a per-character sliding scale of some kind. Similarly, for mining, perhaps new mining anoms respawn more slowly after they're mined-out. Or mining anoms could have increasingly difficult NPCs when Rorqs are on-field -- or there could be an entirely new mechanic that more accurately reflects the fact the limited nature of resources.
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
#2318 - 2017-07-09 17:43:56 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Ace Aideron wrote:
I would like to suggest the following ideas with regard to addressing game balance issues:

1. Never nerf ships or modules or skills.


It's hard to adequately express how laughably childish this is. When one thing is broken, you fix the one thing. You don't allow it to define the new baseline and then try to correct the entire rest of the universe to accommodate it.

Quote:
By reducing the capabilities of ships and modules, you are purposefully devaluing things that players have either worked hard for in-game, or paid real money for, or both. Nerfing, by its nature, has caused a lot of player heartache and animosity toward CCP. No nerfs also reflects the real world better, which is a plus in Eve. (If I buy an expensive drilling ship in the real world, all kinds of problems might turn up with regard to the sites I can mine or how much I can sell my ore for, but the ship itself doesn't change).


First of all, this isn't the real world. The real world doesn't give a **** about "balance". This is a game, in which balance is vitally important.


Secondly, captain obvious, devaluing those items is the entire damn point. They're overpowered, and need to be brought back into line. If that hurts someone's feefees, that's just too damn bad. Nobody held a gun to their head and forced them to chase after the destined-to-be-nerfed flavor of the month.

If this "never nerf" idiocy were actually policy throughout Eve's history, you'd now have a game with hundreds/thousands of titans that can fire grid-wiping doomsdays from lightyears away through a cyno.

It's an embarrassingly simple-minded notion.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

IIDjangoII
The Alpha and the Omega
#2319 - 2017-07-09 20:49:20 UTC
do u realise there are players multiboxing (if you can call afk ratting multiboxing) 10-20 vni/ishtars. this 1 dimensional little calculation you have come up with to illustrate your point doesnt really take that into account. you cannot afk 10 supers. of course this does not bother you tho because you are getting 10-20 subscriptions out of it, while actual gameplay is of no interest to you whatsoever as you do not actually play, and neither do any of the csm, unless you call logging in every two weeks to spout some bullsh*t from inside of station playing.
Freeman Kurt
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2320 - 2017-07-09 21:38:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Freeman Kurt
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Ace Aideron wrote:
I would like to suggest the following ideas with regard to addressing game balance issues:

1. Never nerf ships or modules or skills.


It's hard to adequately express how laughably childish this is. When one thing is broken, you fix the one thing. You don't allow it to define the new baseline and then try to correct the entire rest of the universe to accommodate it.

Quote:
By reducing the capabilities of ships and modules, you are purposefully devaluing things that players have either worked hard for in-game, or paid real money for, or both. Nerfing, by its nature, has caused a lot of player heartache and animosity toward CCP. No nerfs also reflects the real world better, which is a plus in Eve. (If I buy an expensive drilling ship in the real world, all kinds of problems might turn up with regard to the sites I can mine or how much I can sell my ore for, but the ship itself doesn't change).


First of all, this isn't the real world. The real world doesn't give a **** about "balance". This is a game, in which balance is vitally important.


Secondly, captain obvious, devaluing those items is the entire damn point. They're overpowered, and need to be brought back into line. If that hurts someone's feefees, that's just too damn bad. Nobody held a gun to their head and forced them to chase after the destined-to-be-nerfed flavor of the month.

If this "never nerf" idiocy were actually policy throughout Eve's history, you'd now have a game with hundreds/thousands of titans that can fire grid-wiping doomsdays from lightyears away through a cyno.

It's an embarrassingly simple-minded notion.



The answer is no to nerfs. titans don't need to be nerfed to the ground because they make the game fun for some people. I laugh with enjoyment because I'm decimating hundreds of ships because I had the time and money to do it.


Balancing this game has become a huge money grab from ccp. If ccp was not involved with plex, i wouldn't be complaining.

This nerf **** has turned from doing their right nerfs to their wrong nerfs. The right nerfs should be what the majority players want to change and the wrong nerfs should be what the minority want to change. The right nerfs is almost always the wrong thing to do to have fun like nerfing The Golem and raven navy issue from pvp and the wrong nerfs make problems worse than they already are like the Ishtar and vexor navy issue from pvp and generating isk.


Customers want to see a good quality product from CCP like Microsoft did with the Xbox with better things to come. Microsoft has done that by adding more games to their console, they have added better graphics to their games in comparison to the original PlayStation , and they added online gameplay features to some of their games, and they don't touch and balance most of their games. In other words, They added and improved the quality for the Xbox by making it better, so games like Halo could exist to be fun and Halo has never changed and the game is still rediculously fun to play to this day. Microsoft doesnt nerf their products like CCP will do because they know they would make more money if they improved and added quality to their Xbox. That Xbox and their games kept them competitive with other companies. CCP have added things to their game and they don't improve their game.