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PLEX price (ISK) out of control to CCP

Author
Navik Askiras
Yautjas
#21 - 2017-06-21 12:14:41 UTC
Krysenth wrote:
You realize the change to plex hasnt happened very long ago, right? When I first played EVE eons ago, plex was 500m each. By today's standards, that would have been a few hours, days, or a slow month of ratting. Back then? Solo player who ran sec missions in hisec who's greatest achievement was saving up for a T1 battleship to run L4s in? 500m would take weeks. That being said, it has not been enough time to see if plex will continue rising in price, drop back down, or stabilize somewhere in between.

Bear in mind as well, before last year/several months ago, you DIDNT have an option to make isk if you let your account lapse. You were basically told "tough **** lol, get daddy's credit card," not "welp, you're limited in what you can do, but you can still make isk."


I'm just tracking de Market and pass from 1.2B to 1.5B in short time... and continue increasing...
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#22 - 2017-06-21 12:51:08 UTC
Algarion Getz wrote:

So that average players can afford to pay their subscription with ISK?

These days the PLEX market is controlled by the space rich, speculators and investors who hoard millions of PLEX.

SP farms (the legal version) create a huge demand for PLEX which drives up the prices.

What would you prefer? A few thousand active players or a few thousand SP farm accounts who only login once a month and never undock?

Stuff like SP farms shouldnt even exist. How is it balanced to make billions per month with no work and no risk? If CCP wouldnt earn money with it (by selling skill extractors), it would be removed / blocked within days.

Every year CCP monetizes more aspects of the game by adding more uses for PLEX. Apparently the #1 goal for CCP is to sqeeze as much money out of the existing playerbase as possible. That strategy might be good for their wallets in the short term, but its very bad for the game in the long term. Player count goes down and down ... at the moment its ~15000 ... a few years ago we had twice as many, even on weekdays.


Why isn't the 'average player' doing the normal thing and subscribing with real life money?

CCP would certainly prefer a few thousand active players over SP farms, but how can they police that? ISBoxer's input broadcasting was easy, who could really argue with one click causing 20 actions to happen being reasonable? Mass numbers of accounts and using intentionally added mechanics to profit from people who are too lazy to take advantage of market opportunities is something completely different that CCP has never been against so even if they wanted to stop it, it's a bit more complicated than you make it out to be.

Yes, CCP's goal is to make as much money as possible, like every other for-profit company in the whole.

Navik Askiras wrote:

[...]

Yes it is, if you count 500 = 50M/day more expensive.

[...]

As I said before I has been playing since 4 month a lot of hours day.

[...]

Maybe for a veterans, but new players no... and 1.5b current price... :)


So when you started playing PLEX was negative 4.5b ISK for 500? Four months later it's now 1.5b ISK.

Why should new players be able to pay for their subscription with ISK? PLEX is a way to profit from new players, and keep veteran players around. If you found some way to help new players in this aspect then veteran players would benefit just as much, if not more. we call this Malcanis's law.

Navik Askiras wrote:

Elizabeth Norn wrote:
Have you considered getting better at making ISK, or paying for your subscription with real money?

First option on it, but need time for that... second no option for me. The problem is if PLEX keep increasing the price.


Play smart, not hard.
Cepheus Antollare
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2017-06-21 13:40:47 UTC
Keno Skir wrote:
While it obviously has increased in price, it is in fact easier to afford for a new player now than it was then in my opinion due to increased access to higher paying content these days.


what do you mean by higher paying content?
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#24 - 2017-06-21 16:26:55 UTC
Algarion Getz wrote:
Areen Sassel wrote:
Do something about ghost training (which has just been done). The break-even point for ghost training (where PLEX lets you train just enough SP to sell for the ISK for the PLEX) was a much higher PLEX price than, say, non-exploit skill farming.
The banning of ghost training could also have the opposite effect because you can also farm SP legally by giving all your farming accounts Omega status (you buy Omega status with PLEX).


I'm well aware of non-ghost SP farming, but the question is where the equilibrium point comes - there's a PLEX price (of course itself dependent on the SP price) where it becomes uneconomic. That equilibrium point is much lower for legitimate SP farming because it needs more PLEX per SP farmed.

Back of the envelope, with a set of +5s and optimal map you can train 3.9 injectors worth in 30 days. EVE-central seems to be having a Moment and I'm in Hek, not Jita, so these figures may be a bit off (but before using buy offer prices I have verified that some have actually sold recently at that price), but to do that you need:

500 PLEX @ 2.8 million; 1.4 billion ISK.
3.9 skill extractors @ 270 million: 1.053 billion ISK. (Oddly these have lagged behind the PLEX price a bit; they are "worth" 1.22 billion at the current PLEX price).

Your 3.9 skill injectors then sell for 750 million each, less 1% sales tax (we're assuming you can do all this in a 0% broker fee citadel somewhere): 2.896 billion ISK. That's more profit than I expected (what am I missing?)

Assuming skill extractors increase to track the PLEX price, you're basically turning 937 PLEX into 3.9 skill injectors. At the current SP price that breaks even at a PLEX price of 3.1 million (1.546 billion for an oldPLEX). That's not a long way off the current PLEX price, so if the SP price doesn't change, non-ghost SP farming will soon become uneconomic.

Of course, besides the possibility that I've made some hilarious error, this doesn't paint the whole picture because with the demise of ghost training the supply of injectors will decrease and the SP price will rise, but the basic point that ghosts could sustain a higher PLEX price for a given SP price remains.
Firinne Satir
Rogue Security Service
Spades Alliance
#25 - 2017-06-21 16:41:41 UTC
Keno Skir wrote:
It's not rising 50M a day. .


It is 16:41 on 21st June game time, and the PLEX 500 is 1.35 Billion.
Firinne Satir
Rogue Security Service
Spades Alliance
#26 - 2017-06-21 16:45:06 UTC
Cor'El Dahken wrote:


But where is this 'illegal' isk coming from?


Guristas.
yamoshi Yotosala
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#27 - 2017-06-21 17:37:15 UTC  |  Edited by: yamoshi Yotosala
Navik Askiras wrote:
Hey there,

As you know PLEX pirce is increasing all days about 50M per day (500 PLEX's), that's is a fact and this is out of control. PLEX item is a special item, because give you time in game to keep your Omega status, probably is the most important item in game. If this problem will happens for example to Injectors probably will not a problem, because if you do not buy or you can not buy for high price for your poor econony, you just will need to expend more time in game... but your status Omega will keep a live. In this case PLEX item is big problem for new players. I don't know from who was the idea to split PLEX, but was a wrong idea... because if you split something always will become more expensive if that was the objective, well done. If not... well you can see the finale scene. The trillionary players probably do not care the price for now, but for a new players like me, YES. I being playing EVE since 4 month and I started playing EVE because I could pay the suscription with money of game (ISK). I bought 500 PLEX's two days ago for the first time to upgrade to Omega, but if this continue in a few month I will leave the game, like me probably are a lot of players that is in my same situation.

A possible solution to control PLEX price:
1. Back to exclusive item PLEX 1 unit, not 500 like now.
2. Put a a minimum price and maximum price to the actual PLEX. a long time stable price is the best option.

The better solution I think is the second option that CCP can get.

The objective of CCP should be:
1. Keep happy the players.
2. Continue to grow as a community, not multi-accounts from the same player.
3. Keep upgrading the game.

Feel free to post your option to stop price up.

I hope some GM can read this... :)

My most sincere and humble opinion.

Best regards,
Navik


This analysis is flawed. The plex market is player controlled and subject to supply and demand. Anybody can buy and sell plex, there are many suppliers and consumers. The market may be subject to some manipulation but suppliers are price takers. If they do not sell at an appropriate price another vendor will undercut them. As the price rises the utility for players that cash in plex improves, more isk per plex. Supply increases price falls.

Intervention into markets that resemble perfect competition create problems. Price floors pin prices too high creating oversupply, ceilings create shortages.

Your problem is that you are a price taker with no power in a market where you should have power as a consumer. You rely on plex to play. This is a problem on your part and not of the market.

TLDR when you can buy and welp expensive ships by cashing plex people will just cash more out and readjust the market. Sub your account, buy some plex, welp a shiny ship !!
Cor'El Dahken
Unicorn Fatale
#28 - 2017-06-21 21:29:12 UTC
Algarion Getz wrote:

So that average players can afford to pay their subscription with ISK?


Why should the average player be able to afford to Plex?
If the average, 50%, can afford to buy Plex with isk, then that means 50% can't.
So who is going to pay RL money for all this Plex to get onto the market.
That bottom 50% are already paying approx $15 a month for their sub, and you want them to fork out another $20 for a Plex so that you can not have to pay RL money?

PLEX is a reward for the rich who have worked for their ISK, wether it's ratting, or SP farms or trading or whatever.




Now these SP farms you are so upset about, do you think they would be sustainable if the PLAYERS did not want the SP?
Or Do you think the SP injectors should be cheap enough for everyone aswell?


It's not expensive to set up a SP farm, heck if your so upset about it extract your main and put the injectors up at a price you think they should be, or you could even buy PLEX and put it up on the market at the price you think it should be.

Quit your self entitled whinging and go play WOW if you want a game that's fair for everyone, go tell them their 'tokens' are too expensive.


PS: I pay for my sub with RL money. I could probably afford Plex but don't want to turn the game into a grind just to be able to play.


Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2017-06-22 11:06:59 UTC
Plex needs a 2m cap.
No one needs more than 1b from rmt. Otherwise the games just pay to win.
Only people who can afford to Plex each month are ultra rich. 1.5b monthly is insane.
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2017-06-22 11:08:57 UTC
Firinne Satir wrote:
Keno Skir wrote:
It's not rising 50M a day. .


It is 16:41 on 21st June game time, and the PLEX 500 is 1.35 Billion.

1.5-1.6b right now.
Marek Kanenald
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2017-06-22 11:15:46 UTC
I don't think people proposing a cap understand how markets work.

Fixed rates means either massive oversupply meaning that nobody gets to sell their plex for ages or shortages in which there will simply be no plex on the market.


The problem isn't in plex. The problem is that certain players have access to means of ISK income that are vastly superior (carrier/super ratting, multiboxing rorquals) to what others have.
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#32 - 2017-06-22 11:22:23 UTC
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:
Plex needs a 2m cap.
No one needs more than 1b from rmt. Otherwise the games just pay to win.
Only people who can afford to Plex each month are ultra rich. 1.5b monthly is insane.


What difference does the extra 1m/unit of PLEX make? Other than you not wanting to pay that much, which is kind of selfish really.
Jeronica
Drop the Soap
NullSechnaya Sholupen
#33 - 2017-06-22 11:41:27 UTC
Elizabeth Norn wrote:
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:
Plex needs a 2m cap.
No one needs more than 1b from rmt. Otherwise the games just pay to win.
Only people who can afford to Plex each month are ultra rich. 1.5b monthly is insane.


What difference does the extra 1m/unit of PLEX make? Other than you not wanting to pay that much, which is kind of selfish really.


All I'm reading is entitled individuals who are upset that inflation exists, and that not many people are buying PLEX with cash. That might be an indication of another issue Perhaps people aren't happy with the current state of EVE, and don't want to invest real life money into the game.

HTFU. If you can't afford it, fly alpha for a bit until you find a viable way of doing so. There are COUNTLESS ways to gain omega in a very short amount of time, trading is one of them (we are in the market discussion forum).

Welcome to the reality of a player driven market, where supply and demand actually matter.

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TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#34 - 2017-06-22 12:04:09 UTC
CCP is still sitting on large quantities of confiscated PLEX, if CCP would desire, they could reintroduce them to the market. They did once before.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

yamoshi Yotosala
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#35 - 2017-06-22 16:29:34 UTC
TheSmokingHertog wrote:
CCP is still sitting on large quantities of confiscated PLEX, if CCP would desire, they could reintroduce them to the market. They did once before.


This would theoretically create a short term over supply and a short term fix. Once the stocks are exhausted then price should return to the new higher equillibrium.
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
#36 - 2017-06-22 20:35:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Algarion Getz
Cor'El Dahken wrote:

Now these SP farms you are so upset about, do you think they would be sustainable if the PLAYERS did not want the SP?
Or Do you think the SP injectors should be cheap enough for everyone aswell?


It's not expensive to set up a SP farm, heck if your so upset about it extract your main and put the injectors up at a price you think they should be, or you could even buy PLEX and put it up on the market at the price you think it should be.

Quit your self entitled whinging and go play WOW if you want a game that's fair for everyone, go tell them their 'tokens' are too expensive.

Why should i switch to WoW when EVE is already like WoW. EVE stopped being hardcore when skill injectors were introduced. EVE character development these days is all about grinding. The more ISK you grind, the more injectors you can afford, the faster you "level up". Like in WoW.

And no, im not going to extract SP. I would rather biomass my characters. Skill injectors are a feature for the impatient and casuals, for the players who instantly want to switch to the newest overpowered ship/meta. Machariels are the meta? Inject the required skills! Rorquals get a huge buff? Inject the required skills! Rorquals get nerfed and carrier ratting is now the new hot thing? Inject the required skills!

To support all these bait and switch shenanigans we need SP farms that consume huge amounts of PLEX that could otherwise be used for game time. But PLEX supply is limited, so prices go up, but thats no problem for the 6% who rat in carriers and make almost 50% of all new ISK that enters the game per month.

But who am i to complain? I should just HTFU, inject some skills and start carrier ratting, right?

In the end its all about more money for CCP. More money, because the money from subscriptions/omega time is apparently not enough to fund Gunjack, Valkyrie and VR sports games.
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#37 - 2017-06-22 22:57:35 UTC
yamoshi Yotosala wrote:
TheSmokingHertog wrote:
CCP is still sitting on large quantities of confiscated PLEX, if CCP would desire, they could reintroduce them to the market. They did once before.

This would theoretically create a short term over supply and a short term fix. Once the stocks are exhausted then price should return to the new higher equillibrium.


Not if they keep doing it (and keep handing out bans). It would seem fair enough - every 500 PLEX bought means a month of gametime, rather than some disappearing into a void - although of course it's nicer for CCP's bottom line in the short term to have those PLEX just disappear.
Uselesss Pig
Killing with pink power
Penguins with lasorz
#38 - 2017-06-23 11:18:11 UTC
Plex prices are not the issue here they are just 1 symptom of the sickness that was already mentioned in this thread, more than 30% of the player base have means to earn vast amounts of isk(rorqs,sp farms,carrier&vni ratting) but not enough places to spend it.The more stagnant this game becomes the more things will shift to having to aquire larger and larger amounts of wealth until we reach the point where only large scale operators will be able to survive the prices and the lil fish will be driven out of the game.

No winter expansion is going to fix that because any t2/capital prices spike will be almost instanly countered with more sp farm alts and more intensive ratting.One good idea i saw in this thread is to increase copy times.Not just that all industry times(build invent research) need massive increase(which is easy worked around by having more alts), to at least some extend cope with the problem.

Solutions to the problem have been given out to ccp and it basically boils down to a simple unpopular desicion to make conflict easier all over eve as right now there's multiple things that prevent players from fighting and destroying stuff fast.If nothing is being destroyed plex will remain king and everything else will not sell including minerals mods and ships.

As someone who has been around for 7years i remember how easy was before to destroy stuff no jump range limitations no cap damage limit, aoe dds, and all these things have changed because the community whined about it and now we're moaning to bring back things as they were like a spoiled child who has learned its hard lesson.

I remember the days where i would put an item on the market in jita and the next day i would see my wallet flashing in green, these days it takes constant updating to get your product sold and a carp tunnel syndrome to do the same thing, 4years ago you would actually have very hard time supplying enough of the product you are selling all by yourself, now 2-3people can saturate the whole market and have to fight fiercely for every bit of isk.
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
#39 - 2017-06-23 11:44:42 UTC
Do you also remember the days when CCP said that passive and/or risk-free income is bad for the game and actually nerfed or removed it? (Like the removal of static ice belts for example.)

Now the rule is: Anything goes as long as it makes CCP money.
yamoshi Yotosala
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#40 - 2017-06-24 20:52:25 UTC
Areen Sassel wrote:
yamoshi Yotosala wrote:
TheSmokingHertog wrote:
CCP is still sitting on large quantities of confiscated PLEX, if CCP would desire, they could reintroduce them to the market. They did once before.

This would theoretically create a short term over supply and a short term fix. Once the stocks are exhausted then price should return to the new higher equillibrium.


Not if they keep doing it (and keep handing out bans). It would seem fair enough - every 500 PLEX bought means a month of gametime, rather than some disappearing into a void - although of course it's nicer for CCP's bottom line in the short term to have those PLEX just disappear.


This idea has two different parts, the reinjection of confiscated assets (which are deemed to have been gained by illicit activity) and the decrease of demand by banning more players.
The first question is of morality. Should we use assets gained by exploits?. If we do then this would increase the supply and drive down cost. This would also improve the marginal utility of players increasing demand throughout the markets (less spent on plex more to spend on other assets). This would increase inflation , trade and industry becomes more profitable, plex becomes even more affordable, more demand, prices rise and back to higher equillibrium. The invisible hand completes its work.

The second (although player banning should always be an objective) is an overall fall in demand, general deflation.

The utility of plex has increased significantly. We can multi-train, purchase items, trade skills. Plex rises are inevitable in this environment, but also consider the monetary exchange rate of isk. Selling a purchased plex yields a far greater amount of money due to the increasing plex scarcity fuelled by alternative consumption which increases the utility for players that purchase plex. This will increase inflation by increasing demand akin to the first scenario, except this is a completely player driven environment.
Why ask CCP to subsidise free play? The players mange the market just fine.