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PLEX price (ISK) out of control to CCP

Author
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#41 - 2017-06-25 14:18:35 UTC
yamoshi Yotosala wrote:
Areen Sassel wrote:
Not if they keep doing it (and keep handing out bans). It would seem fair enough - every 500 PLEX bought means a month of gametime, rather than some disappearing into a void - although of course it's nicer for CCP's bottom line in the short term to have those PLEX just disappear.

This idea has two different parts, the reinjection of confiscated assets (which are deemed to have been gained by illicit activity) and the decrease of demand by banning more players.

I didn't really have the second part in mind (and I don't imagine the decrease in demand from banned players is significant). I was only observing that to have a constant supply of PLEX from banned players, they must continue to ban players.
Quote:
The first question is of morality. Should we use assets gained by exploits?

A banned player's PLEX, unlike perhaps their ISK and other assets, are not ultimately the product of an exploit, but an ordinary PLEX purchase, so I don't think the question arises. [1]
Quote:
If we do then this would increase the supply and drive down cost. This would also improve the marginal utility of players increasing demand throughout the markets (less spent on plex more to spend on other assets). This would increase inflation , trade and industry becomes more profitable, plex becomes even more affordable, more demand, prices rise and back to higher equillibrium.

I wouldn't expect an increase in supply to return you to the same equilibrium point, no, which is what you seem to be saying. A lower price can't increase demand to the point where the price isn't lower, and yet continue to increase demand.
Quote:
Why ask CCP to subsidise free play? The players mange the market just fine.

I think these paens (this isn't the most obvious one, to be fair) to leaving the market in its natural state are overstating the case, for all the OP's proposed remedies were clearly unworkable, and it's not clear there's an actual problem from CCP's point of view.

The market doesn't have a natural state; CCP can't _not_ interfere. They decide the manufacturing inputs to every recipe, the drop rates of every dropped item, the price of skillbooks and blueprints, etc - and specifically here, the RL cost of PLEX, the PLEX cost of ex-Aurum items, and the amount of gametime PLEX gives you.

Deciding to return banned players' PLEX to the market is interfering, but just as much is permanently removing it from the game interfering. The decision is only how to interfere.

[1] Yes, one can imagine an exploit that manufactures PLEX, and in that case you'd expect the cloned PLEX to be removed from the game regardless.
yamoshi Yotosala
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#42 - 2017-06-25 17:15:15 UTC  |  Edited by: yamoshi Yotosala
Pretty sound reasoning except you have omitted a large part of the argument. Plex is no longer used for solely for subscriptions. CCP indeed owns the inputs and outputs of the market and therefore controls the market I agree but you are asking for intervention on a single asset to yield the price you would like for a purpose that suits your specific needs. These are not the needs for the entire plex market.
Another significant point is that the plex to real currency exchange is more favourable. If you purchase plex to sell this is a good time, there are many benefits to this outcome. Players can raise more isk and more fundamentally CCP can raise more income which in turn helps to fund development and continue the game.
Just to clarify I think at this point the market needs to correct and not be corrected. I agree this may be difficult for players that have subbed through plex but adjusting one item for a purpose that suits only certain demographics is not the answer.
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2017-06-25 18:35:43 UTC
I don't know why CCP would reintroduce confiscated PLEX. PLEX that was bought with real world money that was confiscated is no longer a liability as it can not be used any longer. The only way that I would think this PLEX would ever find its way back into the game is if they literally resell it for real world money again. If CCP wanted to attempt to drop PLEX prices then you'd get a super PLEX sale.
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2017-06-25 19:06:58 UTC
Alexi Stokov wrote:
I don't know why CCP would reintroduce confiscated PLEX. PLEX that was bought with real world money that was confiscated is no longer a liability as it can not be used any longer. The only way that I would think this PLEX would ever find its way back into the game is if they literally resell it for real world money again. If CCP wanted to attempt to drop PLEX prices then you'd get a super PLEX sale.

It could just be a rare drop. Equally available in a 1/10 up to a 10/10 in rarity.
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#45 - 2017-06-25 22:14:44 UTC
yamoshi Yotosala wrote:
Pretty sound reasoning except you have omitted a large part of the argument. Plex is no longer used for solely for subscriptions. CCP indeed owns the inputs and outputs of the market and therefore controls the market I agree but you are asking for intervention on a single asset to yield the price you would like for a purpose that suits your specific needs.

No, I'm not asking for that. Personally I don't care about the PLEX price one jot - I pay for my subscription with cash money and always have, bought my character transfer PLEX and MCT PLEX with cash money, don't use New Eden Store cosmetics nor skill injectors or extractors. I'm not asking for anything, there isn't a price I would like, and this is nothing to do with my needs or wants.

I'm discussing an idea that was mooted in the thread - and the other thing I'm pointing out is that calling it an intervention is a bit misleading because anything CCP does - even nothing - is equally well them manipulating the market. It doesn't have a natural hands-off state.
Quote:
Another significant point is that the plex to real currency exchange is more favourable. If you purchase plex to sell this is a good time, there are many benefits to this outcome. Players can raise more isk and more fundamentally CCP can raise more income which in turn helps to fund development and continue the game.

This is obviously true in the short term, but equally it seems likely that a high price will cause a decline in the number of players, but a high player count helps keep everyone interested. If a bunch of poors leave, that may cause whales to leave (and meaning there's not a net change in the ratio of supply and demand) - making this a bad thing in the long run. I imagine CCP have a better idea of what might happen than we do, which is why it's interesting that the suggested intervention has been done in the past as a response to a rapidly rising PLEX price.
Quote:
Just to clarify I think at this point the market needs to correct and not be corrected.

It's misleading, I think, to refer to doing one thing as a "correction" and not to doing another thing. It's all equally artificial.
Alexi Stokov wrote:
I don't know why CCP would reintroduce confiscated PLEX.

If you had read the discussion above you would know the answer - as a response to rapidly rising PLEX prices, just like they did last time.
yamoshi Yotosala
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#46 - 2017-06-25 22:49:33 UTC  |  Edited by: yamoshi Yotosala
Quote:
No, I'm not asking for that. Personally I don't care about the PLEX price one jot - I pay for my subscription with cash money and always have, bought my character transfer PLEX and MCT PLEX with cash money, don't use New Eden Store cosmetics nor skill injectors or extractors. I'm not asking for anything, there isn't a price I would like, and this is nothing to do with my needs or wants.

I'm discussing an idea that was mooted in the thread - and the other thing I'm pointing out is that calling it an intervention is a bit misleading because anything CCP does - even nothing - is equally well them manipulating the market. It doesn't have a natural hands-off state.

It is established that CCP own, hold and control the whole of the market. This statement is correct but the conversation ( as you correctly point out) is whether CCP should intervene to stop rising plex prices. With this in mind I am sure describing plex injection as an intervention isn`t misleading, the context is clear. We can both agree that the market has no real hands off state but if we assume this position then the answer to this whole thread is that all of our points are meaningless. CCP should just do as they see fit, it belongs to them.

Quote:
This is obviously true in the short term, but equally it seems likely that a high price will cause a decline in the number of players, but a high player count helps keep everyone interested. If a bunch of poors leave, that may cause whales to leave (and meaning there's not a net change in the ratio of supply and demand) - making this a bad thing in the long run. I imagine CCP have a better idea of what might happen than we do, which is why it's interesting that the suggested intervention has been done in the past as a response to a rapidly rising PLEX price.


This is a great point but I don`t think either of us could predict the outcome. Players may get greater liquidity earlier on, plexing players could consolidate and established could leave. Past interventions have little relevence in this environment however, because the price change is driven by the fundamental change in plex. It is not the same commodity. The realistic answer may be to adjust the denominators for each use to establish some kind of parity of value. If fewer sub then reduce the plex requirement to guide behaviour in this direction.
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#47 - 2017-06-26 05:59:36 UTC
yamoshi Yotosala wrote:
It is established that CCP own, hold and control the whole of the market. This statement is correct but the conversation ( as you correctly point out) is whether CCP should intervene to stop rising plex prices.

I think we started with simple feasiblity - someone mentioned the reintroduction of confiscated PLEX, you said "one off, not a long-term price effect", I said "not if they keep doing it". Nothing about "should".
Quote:
We can both agree that the market has no real hands off state but if we assume this position then the answer to this whole thread is that all of our points are meaningless.

I think it is interesting to discuss what could be done and what the outcome might be - and I don't think the discussion is any more or less interesting if we label one course of action "intervention" and the other "no intervention".
Quote:
Past interventions have little relevence in this environment however, because the price change is driven by the fundamental change in plex.

I think they do. I mean, you're undeniably right that there's been a change in demand resulting from the new facilities, and that's not going away, but an ongoing decision to reinject ban-confiscated PLEX would produce a change in supply that wasn't going away either.
Quote:
If fewer sub then reduce the plex requirement to guide behaviour in this direction.

Well, there's a difficulty here - besides the possibility of a drastic price crash brought on by an anticipated drop in demand - we've had an understanding for years that the PLEX:gametime ratio is unchanging. If it can be changed, it can be changed both ways, and PLEX are no longer an investment with an inherent value that can never be lost.

Lower the cash price? All very well, but it immediately hits the balance sheet (although of course if it brings in more players in the long run, worth it).

The advantage of the confiscated PLEX scheme (after all, there's nothing magic about the number confiscated, CCP could print as many as they liked if they thought it would raise revenue in the long run) is it reassures the people with hoards of the stuff that the extra supply is of a definitely limited size.
Brurak StarKiller
Zonk Squad
Goonswarm Federation
#48 - 2017-06-26 06:23:13 UTC

CCP is so easy to end the price spillover of PLEX.

I'll give the tip!

Make the PLEX that is bought by the market within the game become non-negotiable.

It can only be donated or applied to the account that bought it.

Those who buy on the site directly from CCP may by the sale in the game market.

But whoever buys it inside the game on the market will not be able to sell it again.

READY!! THE BACON HAS CLEARED! =) EvilEvilTwistedTwisted
Mision Realizado
PAX LAGEND
#49 - 2017-06-26 06:27:49 UTC
I agree with Potato Mode Beard Brurak, Plex should convert to game time once purchased, no double dipping.
Navik Askiras
Yautjas
#50 - 2017-06-26 13:53:10 UTC
Brurak StarKiller wrote:

CCP is so easy to end the price spillover of PLEX.

I'll give the tip!

Make the PLEX that is bought by the market within the game become non-negotiable.

It can only be donated or applied to the account that bought it.

Those who buy on the site directly from CCP may by the sale in the game market.

But whoever buys it inside the game on the market will not be able to sell it again.

READY!! THE BACON HAS CLEARED! =) EvilEvilTwistedTwisted


I like your IDEA :D

Current price PLEX (500): 1.5b - 1.6b -.-"
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#51 - 2017-06-26 15:42:46 UTC
It seems like there's even a simpler idea.

If there is a need to keep plex around a certain price... the simplest way to do so is to introduce more plex to the economy.

I'm not sure if that's necessary or not... but if CCP decided they needed to drop the price of plex... then simple give every subscribed account X number of plex. The price will drop. Pretty simple.

If you need to drop it more... give away more plex.

Alexi Stokov
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2017-06-26 15:59:14 UTC
Scialt wrote:
It seems like there's even a simpler idea.

If there is a need to keep plex around a certain price... the simplest way to do so is to introduce more plex to the economy.

I'm not sure if that's necessary or not... but if CCP decided they needed to drop the price of plex... then simple give every subscribed account X number of plex. The price will drop. Pretty simple.

If you need to drop it more... give away more plex.




Unless you're sarcastic....CCP makes money off of PLEX. They would never do this.
Brurak StarKiller
Zonk Squad
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2017-06-26 16:36:54 UTC
I do not see any CCP solution by PLEX in the market to bring down the price. This only gets worse because the smart ones buy these PLEX and resell.

The solution would be made non-negotiable in the purchase by the game market so that I could buy it on the site directly from CCP and sell it on the game market. So I can do ISK with PLEX but I can not buy it in the gaming market and resell. If you buy it on the market you could only use the plex or donate.

I remember a few months ago the PLEX was 800M ISK and soon it will be double. I'm being stolen by these who buy and resell. They are manipulating the market with each update and I believe that within 8 months PLEX will be worth 5bi ISK.

Make it non-negotiable there will be a lot of people looking for other ways to do ISK because the dough is over.

The CCP will sell much more PLEX and I will pay cheaper. The server with the cheap PLEX will have more ALPHAS becoming OMEGA. IdeaIdeaIdeaIdea
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
#54 - 2017-06-26 22:58:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Algarion Getz
Brurak StarKiller wrote:
I do not see any CCP solution by PLEX in the market to bring down the price. This only gets worse because the smart ones buy these PLEX and resell.

Ban/nerf SP farms and demand for PLEX will plummet.

Nerf the ISK faucets and/or buff the sinks, so that we dont get another crazy month like May 2017 again, which added 60 trillion extra ISK to the economy.

People always say its a player driven market, but CCP is in full control. If CCP decides to do nothing, it doesnt mean that they have no control.

I guess CCP isnt doing anything because they earn a lot of money with SP farmers. Think about it:

  • A SP farmer pays twice: 500 PLEX for 30 days of Omega time and 448 PLEX for 4 skill extractors.
  • A regular player pays once: 500 PLEX for 30 days of Omega time.

From a financial standpoint, SP farmers are more valuable customers for CCP.

Think about that ... an account that is not used for playing, but for passive, zero-risk income generation, is the most valuable account for CCP.

Risk vs Reward ... gone.
Unique progression system (players now just grind SP like XP in other games) ... gone.
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#55 - 2017-06-27 00:17:04 UTC
Alexi Stokov wrote:
Scialt wrote:
I'm not sure if that's necessary or not... but if CCP decided they needed to drop the price of plex... then simple give every subscribed account X number of plex. The price will drop. Pretty simple.

Unless you're sarcastic....CCP makes money off of PLEX. They would never do this.


Scialt knows they sell it, obviously, and while I don't think this is a remotely likely remedy (albeit that there are PLEX drops in the current event, a first), if you'd read the thread you'd understand the rationale. If they think a very high price reduces player count and long-term income, they might very well be willing to take a short-term hit to avoid that long-term problem.
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#56 - 2017-06-27 17:12:42 UTC
Alexi Stokov wrote:
Scialt wrote:
It seems like there's even a simpler idea.

If there is a need to keep plex around a certain price... the simplest way to do so is to introduce more plex to the economy.

I'm not sure if that's necessary or not... but if CCP decided they needed to drop the price of plex... then simple give every subscribed account X number of plex. The price will drop. Pretty simple.

If you need to drop it more... give away more plex.




Unless you're sarcastic....CCP makes money off of PLEX. They would never do this.


They do this when they put a sale on plex. If bob is going to spend 20 dollars on plex and CCP gives a 50% off sale... than Bob gets double the plex for the same price. The extra plex is essentially introduced into the economy for no additional profit for CCP.

Again... this only is needed if CCP views the plex price (in isk) as too high. If they believe it's a problem... the solution is to inject more plex into the economy. That can be done from drops, from discounts to the real world price of plex or from flat giveaways (like a christmas gift).

The equation for CCP isn't simple. If plex prices (isk wise) get too high, some people may not sub accounts anymore. This will bring plex prices down eventually... but the problem is those players may not come back, so long term CCP ends up with less players subbed (either through plex or subscription) and creates a negative income spiral.

On the other hand, high plex prices encourage players to buy plex with real money. The problem is they've been high for a while an it hasn't started to come down. They are probably at the point they need a big (50% or so) sale on plex or a giveaway of some kind. I'm guessing it will be the sale. But either way they'll be sacrificing real world income in favor of trying to keep players.
Brurak StarKiller
Zonk Squad
Goonswarm Federation
#57 - 2017-06-28 00:43:48 UTC
All I know is that all my acquaintances stopped playing. Only this month I lost count of how many stopped playing. There are 2 players OMEGA. Those who buy on the CCP website and those who buy in the market. These two can not share the economy. Because the external PLEX is dirty game. The external PLEX will always be the beginning of the quit. Guys buy hundreds and thousands of PLEX on the market and wait for the crises and poe the price it in heights. Making real money influence the ISK. This has to stop! Do not let anything external influence the EVE economy and punished gambling sites and other external influences but PLEX is one that makes the game almost impossible for new players. What?SadSad

Take a test and if you need ISK buy PLEX and sell it.

But if you need PLEX and have ISK you will be poor if you buy PLEX in the market.

So the guy can not buy it, he'll just turn ALPHA and automatically his game is over. StraightUghXX
Marek Kanenald
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2017-06-28 09:54:03 UTC
Skill extractors are without a doubt a contributor to higher plex prices.


Are there numbers on how many plex Skill extractors consume?
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#59 - 2017-06-28 23:47:49 UTC
Back when plex were in the 350-500m range I used to sub 4 accounts and usually gave away a plex to some random nooblet every few months. During this time I could reasonably expect an income around 7~ish billion a month give or take based on drops and market flux. Comparing this to today where the ships available for my isk making are worse, the loot sold sells for around 30% or so of its previous prices in years gone by, it can be a challenge to get 2b out of exactly the same items, and take longer getting them.

Nowadays my brother and brother in law no longer play, so I have only my and my alt accounts to sub, forget handouts as it's too expensive to afford. However, upon recieving the 6 days left email for my alt account and looking at the market I decided today's 1.56b overwhelmed the benefits of having even my own alt active. As for the fate of my main account.... stale content is stale content. At time of posting it's less than 20K accounts logged in whereas at this time in summer it should be 30-35k around this time of day.

There are too many factors involved to say one thing drives the plex market one way or the other, but as I have very little RL money, the rising plex prices will eventually make an unobtainable celing where I'll have to walk away for good.
Brurak StarKiller
Zonk Squad
Goonswarm Federation
#60 - 2017-06-30 03:17:01 UTC
ShockedShockedShockedShocked

Ugh

Today one more friend of mine who plays had to stop because he has 8 bills and can no longer do his production with PLEX rising and mining devaluing every day. Look at the user bookmark. It's already ten thousand less after ALPHA PATH.

So did I. If you continue the PLEX in the hand of those who resell. But I liked the game. If I could I would continue but PLEX next month will be (2 bi IZK) and my production is based on ore that does not accompany the PLEX and does not accompany the Skills Estrator.

Today the PLEX: 500Plex ​​= 1.6bi IZK
Going up 100 million a week.

If PLEX stops climbing, the ability tricks also stop climbing.

This conversation they are producing and banished is fine. But the amount was not significant to climb so much. But also do not stop raising this price of PLEX.

SadSadSadSadWhat?