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[June] Fighter Damage Reduction

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Lamajagarn McMyra
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1061 - 2017-06-10 03:15:40 UTC
MONTYJOHN wrote:
Aries Stark wrote:
Khara Hirl wrote:
Aries Stark wrote:
Khara Hirl wrote:


Ishtars also hit 1/3rd of what a carrier can hit per tick, don't really want to hear that crap. Also the reason they work is because they are fast and the drones are good. That' what gallente focuses on for their Hacs.


yeah, ishtars also cost 1/5th of what a carrier does, so i dont really wanna hear that crap either.
RvR



Carriers don't make 5 times what a ishtar does because they are slower to move not because they cost 5 times more. Hell making 3 times more then an ishtar for a ship that cost 5 times more, is a nice bump up in pay to be honest.

RVR my ass, excuses excuses maybe you should stop blinging out your ships.



300m ishtar pulls in about 20m ticks
2b carrier pulls in about 45m ticks
25b Super pulls in about 120m ticks

seems like a fair progression to me.


Bling is irreverent to this conversation.




and thats just part of the problem...why would somebody invest in a carrier for ratting when you could just throw 3-4 ishtars in sites and make same/more isk for fraction of the risk involved...your not removing the current meta only just shifting it


The risk to the ishtars is arguably higher, if multiboxing it's acctually alot harder to keep track of all 4 at a time, you also have to stay in range of the npcs. just compare the numbers of ishtars/vnis lost daily on zkillboard to carriers/supers. Running 4 of them will also cost you equivalent to one forth of ar super a month in plex/real life money
Bruce Destro
Global Dominance Initiative
#1062 - 2017-06-10 03:19:00 UTC
As a long-term eve player and capital pilot, i feel that capitals should never have been able to do anomalies in the first place. they were never intended to be ratting ships, much less the PRIMARY ratting ship. its almost garunteed isk, with minimal risk and effort. my solution? instead of nerfing fighters just add acceleration gates to anomalies. capitals should never have been used to rat anyway. fleeting up with a few friends in hac's or bs's should be the way it works, not this solo afk money crunching.
MONTYJOHN
THE KRAKEN INC
#1063 - 2017-06-10 03:19:51 UTC  |  Edited by: MONTYJOHN
[/quote]

The risk to the ishtars is arguably higher, if multiboxing it's acctually alot harder to keep track of all 4 at a time, you also have to stay in range of the npcs. just compare the numbers of ishtars/vnis lost daily on zkillboard to carriers/supers. Running 4 of them will also cost you equivalent to one forth of ar super a month in plex/real life money [/quote]


depends what your doing also though for sustaining your accounts realistically there is a number of ways to keep them going being pi, or even sp extraction for that matter.

it might not be the norm but realistically speaking its not uncommon

Edit: also in regards to the increased vni/ishtar losses its due to negligence on being vigilant about your local surroundings its far easier to just say screw it i dont care if i loose this thing as long as it makes X its value during its lifespan
Aries Stark
Black Powder Ballistics
Hole Control
#1064 - 2017-06-10 03:25:57 UTC
We should just take away drones ability to auto-aggro npc's while we're at it.
GG Afk ratting forever (unless youre smart enough to use auto-targeting missiles which should also be removed).
Odessima
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Goonswarm Federation
#1065 - 2017-06-10 03:33:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Odessima
I don't see how these changes were actually thought out that well. The problem will only shift its focus from Carriers and Supers to another ship PVE wise, aside from not actually focusing on what seems to be the problem which seems to be certain Alliances can undock them with impunity for PVE, and as far as PVP it really doesn't make that much sense at all.

Titans and supers used to be expensive and hard to actually obtain unless you were in an Alliance that could actually build them, and it originally took years to actually train for one. With injectors and build costs being so low, that is no longer the case. The changes to fighter sigs was a good call, and meant that their damage could be reduced effectively in both PVE and PVP.

You can no longer AFK rat in either a super or carrier, you have to be present and active to use them. There are other ships that it is not the case, and with a lower cost ship and skill wise you can pretty much rat with impunity, while you are sitting watching something else and not actually paying much attention to EVE at all, except to change sites.

These changes will not really have much affect at all on the PVE structure, because the ones getting the ticks wont actually be affected by it that much, but essentially makes them useless for PVP, unless as stated before they are used in the blob mentality, which isn't really going to change either. The amount of isk and training to use one should actually mean something, and the amount of kills for supers lately isn't showing an overpowered ship type at all. The changes will just make them an overpriced Ship Hauler.

It seems to me that CCP brings in changes like this with ships with no actual plan of what these ships are supposed to achieve, or that actually don't investigate the changes they make as deeply as they should, and keep having to bandaid fix things without actually attacking the problem. As far as the PVE side the problem isn't with the ship , but the the PVE, so why nerf the Ship unless you are incapable of actually fixing the underlining issues, which seems to be the NPC's.
MONTYJOHN
THE KRAKEN INC
#1066 - 2017-06-10 03:37:03 UTC
for the sake of conversation over player interactions and content over the last few years it has drastically dropped in my opinion and has become more restrictive.

if you say look back to even the time of Apocrypha content or even combat opportunity in high sec where far more readily accessible now a days you dont see much fighting going on apart from mercenary corporations
h3110kittyminer
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1067 - 2017-06-10 03:49:37 UTC
Well first off i will no longer be paying ccp anymore at all.. Secondly and more importantly lets just make a 20-30bil isk ship absolutely worthless. This is gonna destroy the supers and carriers to the point is there really a reason to use them anymore..... 30% reduction to the long range heavy fighter damage.... i mean really come on what actual use do they have???? cause in PVP there worthless when you can make the short range fighters that do 2-3x the amount of damage have enough range to shoot a pos......
Now with massive nerf to damage how does a mid size super fleet survive a dread bomb? when the dreads will be doing almost as much damage as supers with tank fitted...... but no need for there to be balance right?????
You wanna whine about to much isk being generated like someone said on the first page fix the afk ratting ships like ishtars and vexor navies that literally sit in sits all day semi afk or completely afk.... Also wheres the nerf to the rattlesnake that does 1400 dps with max skills thats not "over Powered"??????? As usual the arms dont know what the legs are doing.... quality changes ccp why not just biomass eve cause thats where its headed
Lamajagarn McMyra
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1068 - 2017-06-10 04:05:08 UTC
Odessima wrote:
I don't see how these changes were actually thought out that well. The problem will only shift its focus from Carriers and Supers to another ship PVE wise, aside from not actually focusing on what seems to be the problem which seems to be certain Alliances can undock them with impunity for PVE, and as far as PVP it really doesn't make that much sense at all.

Titans and supers used to be expensive and hard to actually obtain unless you were in an Alliance that could actually build them, and it originally took years to actually train for one. With injectors and build costs being so low, that is no longer the case. The changes to fighter sigs was a good call, and meant that their damage could be reduced effectively in both PVE and PVP.

You can no longer AFK rat in either a super or carrier, you have to be present and active to use them. There are other ships that it is not the case, and with a lower cost ship and skill wise you can pretty much rat with impunity, while you are sitting watching something else and not actually paying much attention to EVE at all, except to change sites.

These changes will not really have much affect at all on the PVE structure, because the ones getting the ticks wont actually be affected by it that much, but essentially makes them useless for PVP, unless as stated before they are used in the blob mentality, which isn't really going to change either. The amount of isk and training to use one should actually mean something, and the amount of kills for supers lately isn't showing an overpowered ship type at all. The changes will just make them an overpriced Ship Hauler.

It seems to me that CCP brings in changes like this with ships with no actual plan of what these ships are supposed to achieve, or that actually don't investigate the changes they make as deeply as they should, and keep having to bandaid fix things without actually attacking the problem. As far as the PVE side the problem isn't with the ship , but the the PVE, so why nerf the Ship unless you are incapable of actually fixing the underlining issues, which seems to be the NPC's.


While the ammount of kills for suoercarriers is perhaps nothing to complain about the daily number of losses sure is however. With new stats carriers will be more balanced for pvp around 12-1500 dps with really good tank, application and a jump drive. Sure fighters may be killed or jammed but no ship should be without a counter (all otver ships in the game may be renderd unable to deal damage through ewar aswell). Why shoulda cheap ship (after insurance) such as a carrier be able to single handedly wipe the floor with many small gang comps?

Sure this was fine back in the days when capitals were rare and expensive, now that they can be deployed in mass they should be more balanced to keep other comps viable.
h3110kittyminer
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1069 - 2017-06-10 04:14:15 UTC
Lamajagarn McMyra wrote:
Odessima wrote:
I don't see how these changes were actually thought out that well. The problem will only shift its focus from Carriers and Supers to another ship PVE wise, aside from not actually focusing on what seems to be the problem which seems to be certain Alliances can undock them with impunity for PVE, and as far as PVP it really doesn't make that much sense at all.

Titans and supers used to be expensive and hard to actually obtain unless you were in an Alliance that could actually build them, and it originally took years to actually train for one. With injectors and build costs being so low, that is no longer the case. The changes to fighter sigs was a good call, and meant that their damage could be reduced effectively in both PVE and PVP.

You can no longer AFK rat in either a super or carrier, you have to be present and active to use them. There are other ships that it is not the case, and with a lower cost ship and skill wise you can pretty much rat with impunity, while you are sitting watching something else and not actually paying much attention to EVE at all, except to change sites.

These changes will not really have much affect at all on the PVE structure, because the ones getting the ticks wont actually be affected by it that much, but essentially makes them useless for PVP, unless as stated before they are used in the blob mentality, which isn't really going to change either. The amount of isk and training to use one should actually mean something, and the amount of kills for supers lately isn't showing an overpowered ship type at all. The changes will just make them an overpriced Ship Hauler.

It seems to me that CCP brings in changes like this with ships with no actual plan of what these ships are supposed to achieve, or that actually don't investigate the changes they make as deeply as they should, and keep having to bandaid fix things without actually attacking the problem. As far as the PVE side the problem isn't with the ship , but the the PVE, so why nerf the Ship unless you are incapable of actually fixing the underlining issues, which seems to be the NPC's.


While the ammount of kills for suoercarriers is perhaps nothing to complain about the daily number of losses sure is however. With new stats carriers will be more balanced for pvp around 12-1500 dps with really good tank, application and a jump drive. Sure fighters may be killed or jammed but no ship should be without a counter (all otver ships in the game may be renderd unable to deal damage through ewar aswell). Why shoulda cheap ship (after insurance) such as a carrier be able to single handedly wipe the floor with many small gang comps?

Sure this was fine back in the days when capitals were rare and expensive, now that they can be deployed in mass they should be more balanced to keep other comps viable.



your using the wrong small gang comp then a single carrier cant kill really any well thought out small gang doctrine.... now sure if you have a kitchen sink fleet thats not hard to kill at all
Zero Davahum
#1070 - 2017-06-10 04:15:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Zero Davahum
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/6g99i4/unsub_if_you_want_ccp_to_listen

CCP does not care about player feedback, this is true with every business even outside of the video game industry.

The only time they will care about something they have done is if you, the player stop paying for subscriptions, stop buying PLEX and other currencies and stop playing EVE. CCP are much more likely to listen if the controversial change to gameplay causes a loss of profit.

Unless every single one of you who has compalined about these nerfs stop giving CCP money. CCP will not listen to anything you have to say, you are being ignored.

As much as it sucks, we have to relise that as true with every company, CCP cares about profit from their products and nothing more, if you don't like a change they make, stop giving them money, when CCP notices a massive drop in profits, then they will start to care about player feedback and start doing the things you wan't them to do so they can get profit back on track.
Luc Chastot
#1071 - 2017-06-10 04:18:13 UTC
Incursions, bounties and all other faucets are the things you should be looking at to fix the money supply; reduce them and find other ways to reward players. EVE also needs more sinks and greater incentives to fight and lose stuff.

It boggles me how uncreative this solution is.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

redfers
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
#1072 - 2017-06-10 04:39:25 UTC  |  Edited by: redfers
It is problem reduce NPC bounty only for carriers and supers? No thx just reduce DPS....
Desimere
Maneuver
#1073 - 2017-06-10 04:40:04 UTC
I wish sarcastic clapping was a thing
Lamajagarn McMyra
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1074 - 2017-06-10 04:43:35 UTC
h3110kittyminer wrote:

your using the wrong small gang comp then a single carrier cant kill really any well thought out small gang doctrine.... now sure if you have a kitchen sink fleet thats not hard to kill at all


Alright when i say small gang i'm thinking 2-3 guys versus 1 carrier. What kind of compositions containing battleships and below would you consider capable of reliably holding and defeating a carrier in a resonable time? I find 1 carrier on you killboard and for this one you used multiple own capitals to take it down. Whats alot more comon on your bord in particular is killed fighters, where i'm assuming the carrier got away or you were unable to down it before overwhelming backup could arrive.

Nice board in general though, nice to see people acctualy posting with their mains! :)
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1075 - 2017-06-10 04:56:09 UTC
Luc Chastot wrote:
Incursions, bounties and all other faucets are the things you should be looking at to fix the money supply; reduce them and find other ways to reward players. EVE also needs more sinks and greater incentives to fight and lose stuff.

It boggles me how uncreative this solution is.


You shouldn't post on the forums, it removes all doubts about the low levels of your intelligence. NPC bounties are by far and away the single largest ISK faucet in the game.

Last month bounty prizes lead to over 69 trillion ISK entering the economy. By comparison incursions lead to just under 10 trillion ISK. In other words, incursions produce 1/7th the amount of ISK that bounty prizes produce. In fact, bounty prizes are 1.6x larger than all other ISK faucets combined. You really come across as an entitled jackass with this post. "Don't nerf my ISK making, literally nerf everyone else's."

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
McSlooty McTradeyalt
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1076 - 2017-06-10 05:01:28 UTC
Kiddos... it's simple.

CCP want you to sub more afk vni/ishtar alts to make your dank ticks so CCP can orgasm about how "muh sub numbers" are trending upwards.

More alts is what they want, they want you to quad box ishtars versus single box your Hel.
Caecilia Aquina
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1077 - 2017-06-10 05:07:15 UTC
Mossyblog Barnes wrote:
Factor in now the risk(s) associated with super rating which is quite high, you've now got to then focus in around how larger corporation/alliances/coalitions protect their members within systems. In doing this they, in turn, localise their deployment strategies to ensure players centre around Keepstar(s) for responsive fleet strategies.


Didn't they also said they want us to 'spread' by reducing anomaly spawn rate?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1078 - 2017-06-10 05:17:37 UTC
Here is a solution: Double the price of all skill books. Double the size of that ISK sink. Double borker's fees and double the size of that ISK sink. Double the price of blueprints. That should add over 27.5 Trillion in ISK sinks thus largely off setting the additional ISK entering the economy via ratting carriers ans supers. Of course, people won't buy as much stuff...so maybe only 22-25 trillion in additional ISK sinks.

Sure, the people buying skill books aren't the cause of the problem, but screw 'em right? After all carrier ratting, it's serious business. And people paying broker's fees...well they kinda suck anyways right? And people buying blueprints, well they can just go to Hell. After all people ratting in carriers and supers...they are special (apparently special needs).

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Ida Aurlien
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#1079 - 2017-06-10 05:25:15 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Stall
lol ccp removing everyone leaving.... people posting it on reddit also.. this 1 looks like a big exodus and they wanna control what people say..
wouroo
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#1080 - 2017-06-10 05:42:24 UTC
it seems there has been a new faucet opened up, namely the nullbear tear faucet. there are plenty of other things to do in this game besides only flying caps and ratting.

I too have reason to be upset since I am only about 3 weeks from gal carrier 5, but I am okay with the highest end PvP getting taken down a notch. as for the PvE, well I guess nullbears are gonna need to get a little more creative than farming rats in order to make crazy large amounts of isk. I would like to see the skillpoint gap between subs and caps be reduced a bit though. the fact that I have trained nothing but support skills for the last 9 months is not very content inducing.
Now if you really want to take the nerfbat to that massive isk faucet of safely ratting someplace quiet for hours on end, make the rat have decent DPS and application, then make them use scrams and webs. once the threat of getting popped becomes real, more engaging fleet content should come around as people cant just solo/AFK everything. I think very few aspects of eve should be passive, and as an online MMO, neither should the highest end anything be solo. as an afterthought, you could also make payouts dynamic. I.E rat more, get less. maybe have it so rats drop a commodity item ( just found a non LP store use for tags) that can be sold to NPC buy orders. sell more and the price goes down. that should help with oversaturation of farming. could even make it so the anom rats have no bounty, just these tags, then other places like asteroid belts could remain unchanged.

I do want to see other ships be made more useful still. AFs and faction battleships are not particularly useful. can an AF at least be a little bit faster? I feel like a potato flying one of those. balance pass on AFs please.