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[June] Fighter Damage Reduction

First post First post First post
Author
Tara Read
Doomheim
#481 - 2017-06-09 15:17:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tara Read
I stated back when the December 07 show came out and saw Guards comments on changing all of pve to make it a sort of "group" experience that this was just a way to force players to spend more real money on Plex. That's all it is at this point. How can you fly doctrines without isk Income? How can you PVP without PVE income? Simple. Eve turns into a pay to play system of Plex. The silly thing is that CCP wanted more involvement in the space groups held and boy they sure got it.

My prediction was CCP would nerf individual PVE streams such as Rorquals and Super ratting which are some of the highest income streams for individual players and had been for years. What CCP fails to realize is that people don't pve for fun in high end groups, we pve to pay for our PVP. When you lose a doctrine ship or a dread or something of that nature in a big brawl (that CCP sort of markets to Bright eyed new players who they pray have a Credit Card and will inject and buy Plex to reach a level veteran player have)

You naturally need to replace it. What CCP fails to realize is in their greed ridden pay to win system of BUY PLEX NOW and ridding Eve of it's pve streams gradually is that now you are truly killing content for players. You give us less targets to hunt, you give us less big ships to destroy because dumb people like to fly big shiny ships, and you further alienate the concepts talked about during the release of Citadel when Supers and Titans were reworked and retooled to give then a new role with very big nerfs to hp and ewar immunity.

Odd how this isn't a dev post on the PvP ability of such ships but rather a economc view. Eve has trillions of isk in it's economy and has for over a decade. Why now the sudden shift towards killing individual income streams?

Because all CCP wants is for you to buy Plex with real money period. First they'll nerf Rorquals and Supers. Then theyll nerf anom repawns. Then they make it where capitals cannot run anoms or level 5 missions and instead encourage "group" pve like those stupid Blood Raider sites that can be ran in frigates as "high end pve" as a way to finally kill individual income. Welcome to the new Eve. Better whip out that credit card.

FYI CCP I've always paid for my 7 accounts with actual money. I hate the idea of having to pve for my subscription and my pve time is spent fueling my PvP for PL and my own endeavours. Keep this up and I think a few of us will just get so sick of the EA like way this game is headed and go find something else to play. Which is pretty sad. Don't make us buy Plex to PvP.
Plyn
Uncharted.
#482 - 2017-06-09 15:18:19 UTC
Is it frustrating to train into and buy ships that get nerfed? Absolutely. But this isn't the end of the world, folks. Ratting in a thanatos 5 years ago you wouldn't have dreamt of the kinds of tics people can get now, so we really can't say there hasn't been some serious power creep as far as ISK generation with these ships. Now, some of the people flying these may not have been doing so for so long, and maybe some of the older pilots don't remember those days, so I guess a lot of people probably feel entitled to keep what they've had for a while here.

I think this isn't a bad move at all. Coupled with the faction BS changes I think we'll see a fair dip in the average profit per hour of null residents. It's all going to be meaningless, though, overall, until some other unrelated, or semi-related, changes are made. People are going to continue crabbing up until they have a better reason to fight than for funsies. Typical PvE is going to remain boring until the dynamic PvE being worked on gets polished and available to other areas of the game.

The most negative thing that I see with this, though, is that we are back to directly disincentivizing active play. We don't have a solid handle on how this will feel yet, but if the profitability drops low enough (both from isk/time running the site and potentially replacing the occasional lost fighters) it will no longer be worth the effort of actively commanding your fighters, and you'll see the carriers replaced with rattlesnakes and ishtars.

I'm curious to know the processes involved in coming up with the numbers for 20% damage reduction and the 15% increase in fighter targetting.
Radkiel
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#483 - 2017-06-09 15:21:06 UTC
These changes won't hurt me that much as I am retired and have close to unlimited play time. My concern is for the person that works 40+ hours, has a family and other time consuming duties. He/she will now have to spend more time ratting so he/she can buy PvP ships for the weekend.



Resist
Geanos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#484 - 2017-06-09 15:22:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Geanos
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Geanos wrote:
Geanos wrote:
The simplest solution would be to put a tax on bounties for carriers, supers or any other ship class you fancy. Bounties are calculated at 15 minutes, right? So if you add a formula for carrier/super ratting like this - total bounties per tick (tbt) = tbt - (tbt * 20) / 100 - the server extra load would be negligible. Having the ability to put a bounty tax on certain classes of ships would also help you in the future.

I think this is way better than straight up nerfing. And with a tax on bounties you won't have touch the PVP capabilities of ships "because of ISK".


If you want to make it really really easy, you can add this formula at the end of tick bounty calculations, just like you do with other taxes. This means that it will apply even if the player killed just 1 rat with the carrier and the rest with other ships, but it's still better than nerfing. It's just an extra IF (if corp tax / if alliance tax / if ship class).


Except I'm pretty sure there is nothing currently in game that exist to influence wallet entries based on current ship type. Will people eject from their carrier/supers to get their tick while in a pod and then hop back in to continue the farming?


I can't blame you for not reading through, I have the same bad habit on forums :) Clarificațion: that's why I added the last part, with "really really easy". It's just an extra condition on what we already have. You changed ships? Bad luck, tax will still apply for that tick.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#485 - 2017-06-09 15:23:02 UTC
The amount of BS in this thread is amazing. People talking about some kind of plex conspiracy.

You all know that people rat and mine even now without Supers and Rorqs right? I use My Machariel and My Rattlesnake (and sometimes a Gila and/or Ishtar) to rat and do fine. I can fly a carrier, but i knew those were going to be nerfed so i didn't get hooked (also, Carriers can NOT use MJDs, FoF missiles or do DED 10/10s like my mach and snake can).

I'm sorry all of you fell for the FotM and didn't know better than to tie yourself down to something that a brain damaged monkey who paid attention to how CCP operates knew would eventually be nerfed. But you should not act like it's some kind of conspiracy, it's just CCP fixing their mistake over putting overpowered stuff into the game. Again.
Manicsar
MUSE LLP
RAZOR Alliance
#486 - 2017-06-09 15:24:01 UTC
TL:DR CCP needs more people buying plex
Aldent Arkanon
Bad Game Design
Fraternity.
#487 - 2017-06-09 15:24:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldent Arkanon
If you actually think that carriers and supers are overpowered in PvP you should probably take some time and try playing your own game. Fighters are already incredibly easy to either jam out or defang to the point that you can become useless on field within seconds. There is really nothing like spending 2 bil on fighters only to watch them get shredded in 5 seconds.

Seriously diminishing the PvP capability of ships that are expensive, take a long time to train into, and are incredibly vulnerable on field especially in small group scenarios, just to try and fix nullsec PvE is an incredibly stupid excuse for a solution. Not to mention that your assertion that carriers and supers are somehow overpowered just shows that you literally don't know what you're talking about.
Blitz Hacker
The Mythically Intoxicated
Solyaris Chtonium
#488 - 2017-06-09 15:24:43 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:

We are making this change because Carriers & Supercarriers are too strong in PvE, specifically anomaly ratting in Nullsec. As you may have seen in the May Monthly Economy Report, there is a significant upward trend in the Money Supply. This is primarily due to NPC Bounties.
This trend is unsustainable. Having such a large ISK faucet is bad for the economy, and this ISK faucet is concentrated to a relatively small number of players..


May report reflects the disproportional nerfs that have been/are being applied to Rorquals. You nerf one isk faucet and another turns on. People are in rebuilding/saving phases, of course people are making isk.. one way or another. Saying the trend is unsustainable or 'bad' for the economy, I see zero proof of any of this. Only 'bad' thing about it is diluting the isk so everyone can buy ingame plex, possibly causing inflation. I played this game because it was a sandbox, this is not a sandbox and that's becoming more apparent with each daily patch notes.
ALUCARD 1208
Did he say Jump
#489 - 2017-06-09 15:25:02 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
Frostys Virpio wrote:
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
Texas Queens wrote:


You do realize that people use other ships for that right? Marauders are the **** for 10/10's.


ya and so easy to use in hostile space if ur escalation takes you there


And here I though it was supposed to be dangerous and all that...



Once the risk outweighs the reward considerably they become less attractive and run far less meaning the product for the other guys whos had there incomes nerfed becomes unattainable.

All the while sp farms are making far more isk than ratting but hey thats ok as its removing plex from the market or people subbing those accounts and putting more money in ccps pocket than the guy carrier ratting so lets hit that guy and force him to sp farm so more $$$
Winter Lee Wintershadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#490 - 2017-06-09 15:25:18 UTC
Tara Read wrote:
I stated back when the December 07 show came out and saw Guards comments on changing all of pve to make it a sort of "group" experience that this was just a way to force players to spend more real money on Plex. That's all it is at this point. How can you fly doctrines without isk Income? How can you PVP without PVE income? Simple. Eve turns into a pay to play system of Plex. The silly thing is that CCP wanted more involvement in the space groups held and boy they sure got it.

My prediction was CCP would nerf individual PVE streams such as Rorquals and Super ratting which are some of the highest income streams for individual players and had been for years. What CCP fails to realize is that people don't pve for fun in high end groups, we pve to pay for our PVP. When you lose a doctrine ship or a dread or something of that nature in a big brawl (that CCP sort of markets to Bright eyed new players who they pray have a Credit Card and will inject and buy Plex to reach a level veteran player have)

You naturally need to replace it. What CCP fails to realize is in their greed ridden pay to win system of BUY PLEX NOW and ridding Eve of it's pve streams gradually is that now you are truly killing content for players. You give us less targets to hunt, you give us less big ships to destroy because dumb people like to fly big shiny ships, and you further alienate the concepts talked about during the release of Citadel when Supers and Titans were reworked and retooled to give then a new role with very big nerfs to hp and ewar immunity.

Odd how this isn't a dev post on the PvP ability of such ships but rather a economc view. Eve has trillions of isk in it's economy and has for over a decade. Why now the sudden shift towards killing individual income streams?

Because all CCP wants is for you to buy Plex with real money period. First they'll nerf Rorquals and Supers. Then theyll nerf anom repawns. Then they make it where capitals cannot run anoms or level 5 missions and instead encourage "group" pve like those stupid Blood Raider sites that can be ran in frigates as "high end pve" as a way to finally kill individual income. Welcome to the new Eve. Better whip out that credit card.

FYI CCP I've always paid for my 7 accounts with actual money. I hate the idea of having to pve for my subscription and my pve time is spent fueling my PvP for PL and my own endeavours. Keep this up and I think a few of us will just get so sick of the EA like way this game is headed and go find something else to play. Which is pretty sad. Don't make us buy Plex to PvP.



Well said, if it's not pay to win it is becoming certainly pay to have fun.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#491 - 2017-06-09 15:26:28 UTC
Radkiel wrote:
These changes won't hurt me that much as I am retired and have close to unlimited play time. My concern is for the person that works 40+ hours, has a family and other time consuming duties. He/she will now have to spend more time ratting so he/she can buy PvP ships for the weekend.



Resist


Resist making more isk from escalations and having less isk stuffed into the economy with will probably translate into lower plex prices, meaning that ratters 4-6 months form now will have to rat LESS than they do now for game time?

Yea, resist that stuff, we like being Wal-Mart level wage slaves!
JC Mieyli
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#492 - 2017-06-09 15:26:57 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
The amount of BS in this thread is amazing. People talking about some kind of plex conspiracy.

You all know that people rat and mine even now without Supers and Rorqs right? I use My Machariel and My Rattlesnake (and sometimes a Gila and/or Ishtar) to rat and do fine. I can fly a carrier, but i knew those were going to be nerfed so i didn't get hooked (also, Carriers can NOT use MJDs, FoF missiles or do DED 10/10s like my mach and snake can).

I'm sorry all of you fell for the FotM and didn't know better than to tie yourself down to something that a brain damaged monkey who paid attention to how CCP operates knew would eventually be nerfed. But you should not act like it's some kind of conspiracy, it's just CCP fixing their mistake over putting overpowered stuff into the game. Again.

well it certainly looks like a conspiracy
and this is coming from someone who has no interest in flying a carrier
and i dont fly bses either atm though i was planning to
i fly a proteus and im trying to get into industry
well industry is a big fat lie
and proteus... just gonna have to see what happens its not looking too bad though
Creecher Virpio
Alcoholocaust.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#493 - 2017-06-09 15:29:07 UTC
Tara Read wrote:
I stated back when the December 07 show came out and saw Guards comments on changing all of pve to make it a sort of "group" experience that this was just a way to force players to spend more real money on Plex. That's all it is at this point. How can you fly doctrines without isk Income? How can you PVP without PVE income? Simple. Eve turns into a pay to play system of Plex. The silly thing is that CCP wanted more involvement in the space groups held and boy they sure got it.

My prediction was CCP would nerf individual PVE streams such as Rorquals and Super ratting which are some of the highest income streams for individual players and had been for years. What CCP fails to realize is that people don't pve for fun in high end groups, we pve to pay for our PVP. When you lose a doctrine ship or a dread or something of that nature in a big brawl (that CCP sort of markets to Bright eyed new players who they pray have a Credit Card and will inject and buy Plex to reach a level veteran player have)

You naturally need to replace it. What CCP fails to realize is in their greed ridden pay to win system of BUY PLEX NOW and ridding Eve of it's pve streams gradually is that now you are truly killing content for players. You give us less targets to hunt, you give us less big ships to destroy because dumb people like to fly big shiny ships, and you further alienate the concepts talked about during the release of Citadel when Supers and Titans were reworked and retooled to give then a new role with very big nerfs to hp and ewar immunity.

Odd how this isn't a dev post on the PvP ability of such ships but rather a economc view. Eve has trillions of isk in it's economy and has for over a decade. Why now the sudden shift towards killing individual income streams?

Because all CCP wants is for you to buy Plex with real money period. First they'll nerf Rorquals and Supers. Then theyll nerf anom repawns. Then they make it where capitals cannot run anoms or level 5 missions and instead encourage "group" pve like those stupid Blood Raider sites that can be ran in frigates as "high end pve" as a way to finally kill individual income. Welcome to the new Eve. Better whip out that credit card.

FYI CCP I've always paid for my 7 accounts with actual money. I hate the idea of having to pve for my subscription and my pve time is spent fueling my PvP for PL and my own endeavours. Keep this up and I think a few of us will just get so sick of the EA like way this game is headed and go find something else to play. Which is pretty sad. Don't make us buy Plex to PvP.


not empty quoting.

I understand that you dont want unlimited isk faucets, but you're doing it the wrong way. if you want to limit rorqual mining, then find a way to make it ******* aids to multibox, like supercarrier ratting is. the problem with rorqual minining isnt that it pays 200m an hour, its that i can run 10 accounts easily making 200m an hour. find a way to stop that, and youll solve your problem. We finally have ways for individuals to make good money in this game and you ******* nerf it. You made it possible for newer/more casual players to be able to effectively grind for their money, and now you are **** canning it. We actually had a way to combat the war chests of ******* PL and NC. and other groups who have corps with trillions of isk that can just passively **** money, simply by actually playing the game. I actually feel like im getting something from grinding in this game, same with my corp mates. if you nerf these income streams itll just feel ******* worthless, and ill just buy plex because i cant be arsed to ******* rat for 45m an hour.

But thats what you want, isnt it? me to buy ******* plex.
ROFL-HARRIS
Doomheim
#494 - 2017-06-09 15:29:10 UTC
in another attempt to nerf goonswarm, ccp nerfs everyone else alot harder. l0l irl
HRRNighthawk
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#495 - 2017-06-09 15:29:36 UTC
Instead of nerfing Carriers, which you actively have to control the fighters to make your money (and not get them killed), how about you do something about AFK VNIs? The cost/risk of a VNI is nothing compared to Carriers and you can just sit a bunch out and if one gets killed by a gang no biggy you've barely lost anything. Carrier i've lost 2.5-3b.


Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#496 - 2017-06-09 15:32:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
JC Mieyli wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
The amount of BS in this thread is amazing. People talking about some kind of plex conspiracy.

You all know that people rat and mine even now without Supers and Rorqs right? I use My Machariel and My Rattlesnake (and sometimes a Gila and/or Ishtar) to rat and do fine. I can fly a carrier, but i knew those were going to be nerfed so i didn't get hooked (also, Carriers can NOT use MJDs, FoF missiles or do DED 10/10s like my mach and snake can).

I'm sorry all of you fell for the FotM and didn't know better than to tie yourself down to something that a brain damaged monkey who paid attention to how CCP operates knew would eventually be nerfed. But you should not act like it's some kind of conspiracy, it's just CCP fixing their mistake over putting overpowered stuff into the game. Again.

well it certainly looks like a conspiracy
and this is coming from someone who has no interest in flying a carrier
and i dont fly bses either atm though i was planning to
i fly a proteus and im trying to get into industry
well industry is a big fat lie
and proteus... just gonna have to see what happens its not looking too bad though


It only looks like a conspiracy to people too shortsighted to understand that CCP is helping everyone (including the carrier ratters) with the changes they are making.

You are too young in the game to know this but there used to be a time when getting a pirate ship BPCs from a 10/10 or a lucky commander spawn in an anomaly was like hitting the lottery. Now (because or supers and carriers ratting and because CCP turned up escalation chances too high) getting a pirate ship BPC or some deadspace mods from a 10/10 is like finding a penny on the ground aka no big deal.

The only problem with what CCP is doing is it weakens carriers and supers in some pvp situations, but PVE and economy wise CCp is helping everyone by increasing the value of all of the isk in all of our wallets.

It will be ok, the 1st time one of these crying super/carrier pilots sells an escalation for 350-400 mil (like it used to be) instead of 50 to 130 mil like they are now they will forget all of this crying they did lol.
Vic Jefferson
ElitistOps
Snuffed Out
#497 - 2017-06-09 15:33:49 UTC
Terrible change.

In the case of both the Rorquals and Carriers, it's horribly myopic to punish everyone and destroy the rest of the game's balance more or less because AegisSov/Phoebe changes created the situations where PvE capitals be used too efficiently and without a modicum of risk when used at the right scale. The Rorqual never mined too much, and carriers never did too much damage - the problem is the current sov-system combined with short jump ranges creates bubbles of capital dominance that are incredibly hard to challenge.

When you buff the next ship class into viability, will there be anyone left who wants to inject to it?

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#498 - 2017-06-09 15:35:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
Not sure if this is the right way. IMO it would be better to nerf bounty income in general by introducing cooldowns and soft caps like you did with mining belts. High-frequency, high density ratters should be the target regardless of their tools.

Also I still like the no bounty but only tags idea...

I'm my own NPC alt.

Vetus Metallicus
Blue Angels Inc.
#499 - 2017-06-09 15:35:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Vetus Metallicus
You guys are ruining this game and this comes from somebody who barely rats. Isk making in this game is boring as all hell. You are nerfing t3cs that run dead sites, you are nerfing rorquals that mine and carriers that rat. The only thing left are high sec incursions that come at virtually 0 risk and provide absolutely 0 content for PvP players unless you'd like to go suicide ganking.

Wih moon towers slated to be removed next and shooting citadels being even less fun to shoot than red triangles what exactly is left in space to shoot? VNIs? Woohoo.

On and that ghost training people have made hundreds of billions from by now? Let's just ignore that little nugget altogether shall we? If you don't say anything maybe it will just go away right?
Mute Karimar
Burnbach Rangers
#500 - 2017-06-09 15:36:14 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Resist making more isk from escalations and having less isk stuffed into the economy with will probably translate into lower plex prices, meaning that ratters 4-6 months form now will have to rat LESS than they do now for game time?

Yea, resist that stuff, we like being Wal-Mart level wage slaves!


You drunk? Just curious...