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[June] Fighter Damage Reduction

First post First post First post
Author
Abagah Khan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#81 - 2017-06-09 11:00:20 UTC
Rovinia wrote:
Nobody likes to see his toy nerfed, but as it seems this was really an issue. So thanks for tackling it, even if it's surely a unpopular move.

Wouldn't a combination of applicaton nerf and a change in the NPC spawns in these sites (some more smaller ships the carrier has longer to chew on) have been better then this damage reduction? It put's the carrier in a difficult position PvP wise.



but this wasnt an issue.. Risk vs reward and how long it takes to train. its just another nerf trying to limit goons that will hit everyone
Krypleria
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#82 - 2017-06-09 11:01:56 UTC
Meridon Arthas wrote:
Krypleria wrote:
OK CCP, let me get this straight ...

VNI ratting = 12-15m/tick (ship cost 40m)
Ishtar ratting = 20-25m/tick (ship cost 300m)
Carrier tick = 40-60m/tick (ship cost 2.5b)
Super tick = 80-100m/tick (ship cost 25-30b)

Seems balanced to me.

Do you guys even play this game ? =/

You will lose so many players because of this... it will hurt the economy of CCP ... not the game =/

Can you think of OTHER solutions to the economy problem ?



40M VNI ? Damn, Can u contract me some plz ?

Full VNI fitted is 100M. and I did 18-20M tick



I stand corrected, but I guess you got my point right ?
Lucian James
THORN Syndicate
Northern Coalition.
#83 - 2017-06-09 11:02:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucian James
CCP Larrikin wrote:

...there is a significant upward trend in the Money Supply. This is primarily due to NPC Bounties.
This trend is unsustainable. Having such a large ISK faucet is bad for the economy, and this ISK faucet is concentrated to a relatively small number of players.


From skill injectors, to pictures of gold bar stacks as Plex, to nerfing Rorquals time and time again...
CCP is coming off more and more like a money grubbing sh:t-heel of a company only interested in base profit for themselves and squeezing us out of our time and money.

Stop making it more difficult for people with less RL money and time to play this game. The people ratting in carriers and mining in rorquals spent a lot of time, money/isk and emotional investment getting into these ships. They do so because many are in areas of high-end PVP and this keeps them fighting.

If you have a problem with PVE areas with no PVP recourse... vast renter fields churning out isk that goes into a few wallets of pilots that never PVP nor spend it, find a creative way to deal with THAT problem, instead of nerfing everyone in what appears as a blatant attempt to get people to buy more Plex so you can horde our money.

I am getting really sick of your stupidity and carelessness lately.

#CCPigs
C02
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2017-06-09 11:02:21 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Space Friends,
Coming with our release on Tuesday, we’re significantly reducing the damage output of Fighters.

Why:
We are making this change because Carriers & Supercarriers are too strong in PvE, specifically anomaly ratting in Nullsec. As you may have seen in the May Monthly Economy Report, there is a significant upward trend in the Money Supply. This is primarily due to NPC Bounties.
This trend is unsustainable. Having such a large ISK faucet is bad for the economy, and this ISK faucet is concentrated to a relatively small number of players.
We also think that Carriers and Supercarriers are a bit too effective in PvP now. This change will significantly change the PvP balance, but we’re confident that Carriers and Supercarriers will remain powerful options for PvP.

What:
  • Light Fighters (Space Superiority): No Change
  • Light Fighters (Attack): 20% reduction to Basic Attack and Heavy Rocket Salvo damage.
  • Support Fighters: No Change
  • Heavy Fighters (Heavy Attack): 10% reduction to Basic Attack and Torpedo Salvo damage.
  • Heavy Fighters (Long Range Attack): 30% reduction to Basic Attack damage.
  • Heavy Fighters (Shadow): No Change
  • NPCs are 15% more likely to shoot at fighters than they are currently.


We will continue to observe the economy after these changes and will make adjustments as necessary to keep it healthy for all our players.


How is this supposed to fix the problem? As long as players are incentivized to do nothing but amass large amounts of supers in one area, nothing is going to stop. Its unfortunate that CCP seems to have handed the keys of the kingdom to a certain region....(delve) and let them run rampant and somehow DIDNT foresee this becoming an issue. Instead of just making things useless or near to for players who dont have a 300 man super fleet ready to drop at a moments notice, maybe find a way to decentralize the wealth or make the risk equal to the payout. I'm not overly concerned with rat aggro as im not a moron who rats in a super (afk vni is the real problem, how CCP doesnt know this is ????) This seriously reduces the effectiveness of solo or small gang drops. This is a core game mechanics issue, not somehow a dps issue. How is it not just easier to make capital ratting a no go? Just make rats not spawn if a capital is present. As I am sure everyone cares, I am just sad to see CCP just nerfing solo or small groups due to Delve obliterating the economy rather than finding a way to correct the issue. People in eve have shown time and time again, you cut income by half, they just bring in two more toons (****TINFOIL***** THIS IS A MONEY GRAB #2017CONFIRMED) But none the less, the issue at its core remains.


WHY DO YOU HATE CAPITAL CONTENT CCP?
lol

In all seriousness though, CCP Larrikin, please stop killing capital pvp, carriers in particular. The joke that is burst projectors, fighters which are jammable by a soft breeze, as well as their increased sig now to make sure not a shot is wasted on them. Not to mention the confusing mind game that is the long range FIBO bombs...... I understand that carriers should not be a soloPVPBBQmobile, but I'm under the impression most of the community felt they were in a good place pvp wise. (even though apparently 2 carriers cant alpha a Bhaalgorn now before it makes it back to gate)


TL;DR
The point of this whole uneducated rant is to say that older players need an endgame. Not everyone loves to do nothing but fly faction/t1 frigs all day. You have taken my money gladly for 10 years. Please let me live my dream of having fun in the big ships I worked so hard for (and not be rendered useless by 1 sabre and or griffin.) and started playing Eve because of! And that nerfing the entire game wont stop delve from just doubling down to maintain.

****MOAR TINFOIL- Is the point to make buying PLEX the only viable income source?
The Judge
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#85 - 2017-06-09 11:02:32 UTC
Not everyone will be happy with this change, but reducing NPC bounty payouts through a direct rebalance of carriers and supers is in the best interest of eve as a whole. Changing bounty payouts would hurt people ratting in every class of ship when carriers and supers are the main problem child. This is the best option I can see.

Keep up the great work.

CSM XII Member and CSM XI Permanent Attendee

Diplomat for Circle-Of-Two

@_TheJudge on Twitter

thejudge@csm.eve.com

Grella Khurelem
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#86 - 2017-06-09 11:03:43 UTC
Ah, I was training for a super. Good thing you turned off my training queue!
Decres Estidal
House Of Serenity.
#87 - 2017-06-09 11:07:00 UTC
Now that you have killed the damage can you make them have to be locked individually so they don't disappear a soon as fleets see them in PVP. That or make them take up less room or give carriers and supers bigger fighter bays this is just stupid now.
Jenny Starwolf
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#88 - 2017-06-09 11:07:12 UTC
So.. People makes Billions of ISK from un-subbed SP farms due to bug.
CCP don't care about that.

People have to invest several billion ISK in a ratting carrier to get less than double that of some pleb in a 300m Gila, then actively participate in content via killing stuff and risking getting caught, but let's nerf them even harder after we just nerfed them.

Then supers come in, costing 8-9x that of the carrier making barely double the isk they do, let's nerf them to.


Carriers are almost completely useless in any kind of capital fleet fight as it is, you've basically insured they will never be used for anything now, as the asset risk of fielding them is much higher than the strategic value of having one on grid.


If players making too much ISK from ratting is the problem, nerf the income from ratting, reduce rat bounties by 20%. That way the (already ****** up) ratting dynamics of higher ISK risk equals higher ISK reward remains the same, but the overall ratting income is still lowered.
C02
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2017-06-09 11:07:43 UTC
Abagah Khan wrote:
Rovinia wrote:
Nobody likes to see his toy nerfed, but as it seems this was really an issue. So thanks for tackling it, even if it's surely a unpopular move.

Wouldn't a combination of applicaton nerf and a change in the NPC spawns in these sites (some more smaller ships the carrier has longer to chew on) have been better then this damage reduction? It put's the carrier in a difficult position PvP wise.



but this wasnt an issue.. Risk vs reward and how long it takes to train. its just another nerf trying to limit goons that will hit everyone


skill injectors are a thing now. it takes 300$ and 3 minutes to be a super pilot.....
Korus90
With Fire and Iron
#90 - 2017-06-09 11:08:01 UTC
A good start, but the game will still be effectively dead in 3 or so years without significant changes to citadels and fozzie sov. They don't work together.

Why would anyone attack Delve? Aside from the sheer number of goons, good luck taking out 7 keepstars.

Why would anyone attack the north? 4 keepstars in AUTZ.

Not to mention all the Astrahus's and Fortizars there.

Oh and I went into Delve the other day, 71 Rorquals in one mining anom. 71. A single rorqual (maybe even two!) should be allowed to mine at full capacity and then after that there should be a penalty to rorqual mining when rorqs are on grid. Just like the diminishing return of multiple modules.

Sorry, rant over.
iFars
Gaze into the Abyss
Fraternity.
#91 - 2017-06-09 11:08:12 UTC
After the general change of the capital ships, you have already changed the fighters. Do not touch anything else please. You spoil everything too often.
Krypleria
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#92 - 2017-06-09 11:08:59 UTC
The Judge wrote:
Not everyone will be happy with this change, but reducing NPC bounty payouts through a direct rebalance of carriers and supers is in the best interest of eve as a whole. Changing bounty payouts would hurt people ratting in every class of ship when carriers and supers are the main problem child. This is the best option I can see.

Keep up the great work.



In my opinion, you dont know what your talking about. What are you doing in CSM ?
Tobias Frank
#93 - 2017-06-09 11:09:12 UTC
The Judge wrote:

Keep up the great work.


Great work would have been doing it right from the start, what we see now with Rorqual/Carrier nerfs AFTER MONTHS is almost the worst i have seen in MMO game development.
Skruff McGruff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2017-06-09 11:10:16 UTC
seriously though? you think carriers are the main "problem child"? How is that possible?? I can get 25m ticks in a rattlesnake, I can get 20 in a VNI/Ishtar doing NOTHING. and they are nothing to train for. Youre talking years of training for people and now youre reducing their payouts? All this is going to do is increase the VNI/Ishtar route. In certain areas of space I have lived we have a couple carriers ratting and a BAZILLION VNIs, even the Ishtar isn't that viable anymore over the VNI after that nerf. Oh, and 1/2 the VNIs are multi-boxed toons. This seems designed to hurt the solo characters so we are forced to spend more money to have more alts to support the lifestyle we have worked so hard for to play. I would rather pay an extra few dollars on my subscription than have this nonsense. But you'll probably end up doing both and more.
Inquisitor Lucious
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2017-06-09 11:11:29 UTC
Seriously guys whatever you do, DO NOT skill extract your carrier/fighter skills to train up for dreads and HAWs
Atlan Dallocort
Know your Role
Pandemic Horde
#96 - 2017-06-09 11:11:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Atlan Dallocort
CCP Larrikin wrote:

We are making this change because Carriers & Supercarriers are too strong in PvE [...]
We also think that Carriers and Supercarriers are a bit too effective in PvP now.
Heavy Fighters (Long Range Attack): 30% reduction to Basic Attack damage.


You know you could balance PvE by changing the rats or bounties? I don't get "a bit too effective" and "30% reduction" in one sentence. Since when do you balance pvp ships with a focus on their pve abilities?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#97 - 2017-06-09 11:12:26 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
A year ago, we got the long awaited Capital ship changes which finally revitalized the class as a whole. It was obvious that Capital ships were going to be very powerful, both in PVP and PVE. You gave us powerful end game ships to work towards - something worth commitment to Eve. Roughly six months later you did the same thing with the Rorqual. Now, a year after these changes, when most players have finally begun to benefit from them, you reduce the ships back to roughly where they were before.

Maybe that's a good thing in the long run, maybe it's not. Maybe it pisses off so many people who feel that you pulled another bait and switch with training. Maybe it makes Battleships great again. But this is a major change that affects way more than running anomalies.

Nine months ago, it was clear that this game was headed to "Carriers online." Carriers were going to be the mainline DPS boats for PVE and PVP fleets. These training and resource intensive ships were going to be totally dominant. And that is what we have seen these past few months in many major battles. Massive numbers of Carriers supported by FAX replacing massive numbers of Battleships supported by Logistics. There has been an arms race these past few months to get massive numbers of people into Carrier and Supercapital fleets. That's why everyone has been ratting and mining until their eyes bleed these past few months, because you handed the keys to the game to resource and training intensive ships. The group with the most wins. Just as it is about to come to fruition for the late comers, you announce a massive and fundamental change to Capital ships. It would be nice if you could be more agile with your development, but it is hard to steer a Battleship (or Carrier Blink ). A small course correction here and there goes a long way. With that said, I do note that this is the third or fourth Carrier nerf since last summer. I wonder if Carriers will still be OP?

Obviously, this will have profound impacts across Eve, but it won't fix the underlying PVE problem, which is that resources never deplete, no matter how relentlessly you farm. I could run a thousand anomalies and the Blood Raiders would never bat an eye. They never send different ships, they never escalate, they never stop flying right into my guns. If I run Incursions, the Sanshas would basically do the same thing, but at least they move on to a different part of Eve every few days. Maybe you need to fundamentally rethink resource generation in Eve? Get rid of the unlimited local ratting opportunities. Maybe people who log in to find that there are no rats to kill will simply log out again. Or maybe they will do something else and make Eve more interesting. If you pursue this, however, it has to be across the board. Everything has to be finite or people will just shift to continuous PVE in another part of space. Yes, that means the Damsel can only be rescued from Dodixie so many times a day...

Across the board, ISK-generating PVE should be more like wormhole space or Incursions. PVE content eventually depletes. Out of things to do locally? Leave home and go kill some dudes or crab it up some place new.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Santinav
Xynodyne
The Initiative.
#98 - 2017-06-09 11:12:26 UTC
Total disagree with that CCP.

Ive played (trained) since years to sit in an Super, and now ther Damage output is like an Carrier before....

*ding* SHAME!!! *ding* *ding SHAME!!!
Tiesto DJ
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#99 - 2017-06-09 11:12:51 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Tiesto DJ wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Can you please delete VNI and Isthars from the game first before you tinker with fighters? They are by far the bigger problem in this game when it comes to ratting.

Having tons of VNIshtars clog up Havens, Sanctums and Hubs is not sustainable and huge annoyance to any player except for these AFK people.


Read as, **** off VNI/Ishtars. I want Sacs to myself and dont touch obvious op fighters.

Got a problem with this, scared forum alt? If there are many carriers and supers ratting (even battleships and marauders) in a system and the VNIshtars take 3x to 10x as long to finish an anomaly, they just keep everyone from making money. They can, for all I care, put 2 VNIshtars in the same anomaly, for instance. This makes them finish these anoms faster and help everyone. But they cannot AFK rat any more with this, obviously. My entire problem is this AFK attitude as well as that they are so incredibly slow.


Doesnt exactly matter with what account this is posted its still making a point. Stop being afraid of a forum avatar.

Yeah, this still sounds like "AFK tars screwing with my optimal ratting". Dont like it? Move systems, still dont like it or not allowed in DARKNESS. tough cookies? It is what it is? Why should people leveraging a game mechanic suffer because Rivr wants faster anom times for his leveraged game mechanic?
Temnoyar
Doomheim
#100 - 2017-06-09 11:14:24 UTC
I hope this was a consequence of the use of drugs and alcohol... Pls stop it.