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How many more players must we lose to bullying

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Lara Agnon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2017-03-28 18:41:16 UTC
Why do you want to stay in highsec? Go to low or null or live with all the highsec game mechanics.

When I started eve I joined a nullsec corp just after finishing the career agents - more coincidence than my own choice. But now I can tell everyone that it is possible to go to null right away. In Pvp I wasn't worth more than bait and flew back in my pod more often than not. But not everyone wants to solo pvp anyway. For pve, I couln't do more than salvage the wreckage. But we all had fun together.

So instead of whining start your career right away.

If you do not like pvp - why join a pvp-centric game in the first place?

As was stated before, eve is not for everyone and imho it should be just like that. If you change that, it will be like any other game and die.
Jacques d'Orleans
#22 - 2017-03-28 18:42:47 UTC
Zarek Kree wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Calm down miner.

As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining...

I mean why would anyone just start to excavate ore without even asking who owns the place? Seams a bit strange to me if you then come to the forums because your illegal equipment was confiscated.

Who is the real criminal here?



You know, I actually like CODE, but this role playing stuff outside of the game is just weird.


There is nothing weird about the most honorable Agents of his Excellency James 315, the Saviour of High Sec.
They are the beacon of light for every law-abiding citizen of New Eden!

Breakfast is the most important drink of the day.
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2017-03-28 18:44:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Bjorn Tyrson
I'm willing to bet that just about every single person who plays eve for any length of time has been ganked, or caught in a gate camp, etc at least once in their eve career.

I'm also willing to bet that there are plenty of people who tried the game out, never lost a ship, but still left the game.

so if 100% of people who keep with the game have been ganked.
but 100%> of people who leave the game have been ganked. its pretty clear that pvp itself, consentual or otherwise, is at worst not the primary factor in people leaving the game. (otherwise no one would be left playing) or at best is actually a positive factor towards retaining players. (which is what ccps own studies have shown)

op, if the game isn't for you, then it simply isnt the right fit for you. there is nothing wrong with that. but don't go trying to break the game that thousands of other players have been enjoying the way it is for almost two decades, just because its not a good fit for you.

Zarek Kree wrote:


You know, I actually like CODE, but this role playing stuff outside of the game is just weird.


Eve has always been a bit unusual in that it has always blurred the lines between in game and out of game, between reality and role-playing.
on the one hand, you can have alliances who are sworn enemies of one another buying each other drinks and laughing about good fights at fanfest or eve vegas.
on the other hand you have metagaming and espionage to a level that would be a bannable offense in any other game being commonplace and even celebrated.

even the game universe has been designed in such a way that the players who ignore all the lore, ignore all the "normal" aspects of rp, and just spend their time camping gates and exchanging memes and porn in fleet chat. are actually lore-friendly, and exist exactly the way they are in universe (capsuleers are notoriously unstable, self absorbed, and have their own internal culture and jokes that is incomprehensible to the rest of new eden)

James and the rest of code have simply taken that grey area and pushed it further than others generally do.

It also does mean its a little bit more understandable that some newer players might get a bit more butthurt and salty over things, if they haven't quite wrapped their head around the weird (and frankly somewhat counter-intuitive) concept that both "eve is real" and "its just a game" are both true, and exist simultaneously.
Djsaeu
Doomheim
#24 - 2017-03-28 18:49:53 UTC
Batman and Robin did what?
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#25 - 2017-03-28 18:50:07 UTC
DRDNOUGHT wrote:

Im the original Player, I have no need to hide behind forum alts, and yes I've been there too and have all the T shirts. My introduction to this subject was my difficulty in keeping newer members while in empire due to the excessive amount of random war decs we received. Some of those guys where nice people but they didn't see the sense of not being able to play the game fully. Advice is allways given but most choose to switch off and wait till the dec ends....until one day it didn't end........

And?

Those newbros are a resource just like everything else,
if you take​ newbros in then it's your responsibility to defend them or facilitate them doing so themselves.

Ffs there's literally a handful of aggressive entitys in empire that leave the hubs, if you can't keep your newbros alive you don't deserve them.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Sere O'Asis
Desert Oasis Investigations
#26 - 2017-03-28 18:51:48 UTC
DRDNOUGHT wrote:
you talk about the expectations of a seasoned player like you or myself, surely to guarantee the future of our game we need to keep those new players and allow them to develop into guys that can stand on their own two feet.....that's what empire is about....they have the options there if they want to war but should be protected if they don't.....



but should be protected if they don't

I understand your position, and many in this game agree new players, many players, should be helped. That help currently encompasses many forms. The nullsec newbro centric groups, like Pandemic Horde, or help chats, like EVE an Hour on discord, managed by Kael Decadence, or Mike Azariah's "free ships for rookies" initiative. I, myself, have spent hours of my game time chatting with new players in and around the rookie systems, and I have witnessed many others, like Xadiran do the same.

But, you, you have an opportunity, and the drive, evidenced by this post, to help in a way most of us do not. You are the CEO of a corporation, in an active alliance. Why not organize like minded pilots within your group and take the fight to those you feel need reining in. Why not use the tools CCP has provided and war dec the highsec merc corps you feel so strongly about, right now, while advocating for these changes from CCP.

Help protect new players by fighting the corps you feel are abusing the current system and alienating new players. War dec them. Get in the trenches and fight back. You've got the numbers to fight. Organize and fight.

Don't wait around for CCP to correct something you feel needs attending, when you have the tools at hand to take effective action yourself. Go into a rookie system, talk to the new players there, find out who needs to be war decced and explain what you're planning on doing. That would provide an invaluable experience to those you want to help, by showing them how to help themselves in this game.

You are a CEO and you have numbers, and game experience, and passion. Do it!
DRDNOUGHT
Virtual Warriors
#27 - 2017-03-28 18:53:27 UTC
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
I'm willing to bet that just about every single person who plays eve for any length of time has been ganked, or caught in a gate camp, etc at least once in their eve career.

I'm also willing to bet that there are plenty of people who tried the game out, never lost a ship, but still left the game.

so if 100% of people who keep with the game have been ganked.
but 100%> of people who leave the game have been ganked. its pretty clear that pvp itself, consentual or otherwise, is at worst not the primary factor in people leaving the game. (otherwise no one would be left playing) or at best is actually a positive factor towards retaining players. (which is what ccps own studies have shown)

op, if the game isn't for you, then it simply isnt the right fit for you. there is nothing wrong with that. but don't go trying to break the game that thousands of other players have been enjoying the way it is for almost two decades, just because its not a good fit for you.



I suggest you read my original post again, this time all the way through. My post is not about gankers and pirates, its about the rules of war deccing and the loss of potential players who never got the chance to experience the game to its full or those that where unable to play as they wished due to un-ending empire wars that where not of their choosing. Nothing about breaking the game.

Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2017-03-28 19:03:55 UTC
DRDNOUGHT wrote:
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
I'm willing to bet that just about every single person who plays eve for any length of time has been ganked, or caught in a gate camp, etc at least once in their eve career.

I'm also willing to bet that there are plenty of people who tried the game out, never lost a ship, but still left the game.

so if 100% of people who keep with the game have been ganked.
but 100%> of people who leave the game have been ganked. its pretty clear that pvp itself, consentual or otherwise, is at worst not the primary factor in people leaving the game. (otherwise no one would be left playing) or at best is actually a positive factor towards retaining players. (which is what ccps own studies have shown)

op, if the game isn't for you, then it simply isnt the right fit for you. there is nothing wrong with that. but don't go trying to break the game that thousands of other players have been enjoying the way it is for almost two decades, just because its not a good fit for you.



I suggest you read my original post again, this time all the way through. My post is not about gankers and pirates, its about the rules of war deccing and the loss of potential players who never got the chance to experience the game to its full or those that where unable to play as they wished due to un-ending empire wars that where not of their choosing. Nothing about breaking the game.



War deccing IS a part of the game, one that not everyone actually does get a chance to experience.
Eve is a hostile universe, and everywhere you go (with the exception of HS) you are CONSTANTLY under threat, trade hubs are dangerous for EVERYONE not just new players, in low-sec and null-sec, you are never safe unless you are alone or in a system full of blues. and not always even then. In WH's you don't even have the advantage of local for intel making things even riskier again.

coddling players, and keeping them safe does absolutely nothing to prepare them for the game outside of HS. where you are constantly under threat. wardecs and gankers give you that opportinity, with the added layer of safety that at least in HS you only really need to keep a watch out for known gankers (who should be set red to you anyways) and wartargets.

if you do get decced, use it as a teaching experience, teach your newbros how to operate with hostiles in the area, teach them how to fight back, or if you don't have the numbers or the skill to fight back effectively, teach them that sometimes relocation is the best option and move somewhere safer (I practically guarantee you that unless you have done something major to **** the deccers off personally, they aren't going to follow you to another region) teach them how to use out of corp alts to do their shopping. if they don't have out of corp alts, then set one up yourself and offer corp logistics and hauling.

if you doing all of that, and they still leave, then they never would have survived in eve to begin with.
and if you are unable, or unwilling to provide that, then maybe you shouldn't be leading a newbro corp.
DRDNOUGHT
Virtual Warriors
#29 - 2017-03-28 19:05:32 UTC
Sere O'Asis wrote:
DRDNOUGHT wrote:
you talk about the expectations of a seasoned player like you or myself, surely to guarantee the future of our game we need to keep those new players and allow them to develop into guys that can stand on their own two feet.....that's what empire is about....they have the options there if they want to war but should be protected if they don't.....



but should be protected if they don't

I understand your position, and many in this game agree new players, many players, should be helped. That help currently encompasses many forms. The nullsec newbro centric groups, like Pandemic Horde, or help chats, like EVE an Hour on discord, managed by Kael Decadence, or Mike Azariah's "free ships for rookies" initiative. I, myself, have spent hours of my game time chatting with new players in and around the rookie systems, and I have witnessed many others, like Xadiran do the same.

But, you, you have an opportunity, and the drive, evidenced by this post, to help in a way most of us do not. You are the CEO of a corporation, in an active alliance. Why not organize like minded pilots within your group and take the fight to those you feel need reining in. Why not use the tools CCP has provided and war dec the highsec merc corps you feel so strongly about, right now, while advocating for these changes from CCP.

Help protect new players by fighting the corps you feel are abusing the current system and alienating new players. War dec them. Get in the trenches and fight back. You've got the numbers to fight. Organize and fight.

Don't wait around for CCP to correct something you feel needs attending, when you have the tools at hand to take effective action yourself. Go into a rookie system, talk to the new players there, find out who needs to be war decced and explain what you're planning on doing. That would provide an invaluable experience to those you want to help, by showing them how to help themselves in this game.

You are a CEO and you have numbers, and game experience, and passion. Do it!








Your advice is sound and you have my respect for it, in the real world though fighting back and even if you win, attracts more war decs and defeats the object..... Ive done it many times in my eve career.
Another Posting Alt
Zerious Fricken Biziness
#30 - 2017-03-28 19:18:05 UTC
EVE is a PvP game.
Carebear (in the usage of the OP, not all definitions) is just a person who doesn't want to play this game and doesn't want others to play either.
Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
#31 - 2017-03-28 19:18:13 UTC
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
coddling players, and keeping them safe does absolutely nothing to prepare them for the game outside of HS. where you are constantly under threat. wardecs and gankers give you that opportinity, with the added layer of safety that at least in HS you only really need to keep a watch out for known gankers (who should be set red to you anyways) and wartargets.


Preach it brother. I started out in EVE University before I even knew what a war dec was. Being in a perma-decced corp was the greatest learning experience of my short EVE career. I had some embarrassing losses along the way (What do you mean I can't use my war-decced Uni character to fly my brand new VNI out of Jita?), but it taught me how the game works. One of the best decisions E-Uni ever made was to stop avoiding war-decs and start embracing them as the learning experience they are.

The OP could take some lessons from the E-Uni playbook here. They run a very successful mining campus and incursion community by allowing people to use non war-decced alts. Many people use their mains, but they do so with the full understanding that they'll have to deal with war targets.
DRDNOUGHT
Virtual Warriors
#32 - 2017-03-28 19:18:48 UTC
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
[quote=DRDNOUGHT][quote=Bjorn Tyrson]
War deccing IS a part of the game, one that not everyone actually does get a chance to experience.
Eve is a hostile universe, and everywhere you go (with the exception of HS) you are CONSTANTLY under threat, trade hubs are dangerous for EVERYONE not just new players, in low-sec and null-sec, you are never safe unless you are alone or in a system full of blues. and not always even then. In WH's you don't even have the advantage of local for intel making things even riskier again.

coddling players, and keeping them safe does absolutely nothing to prepare them for the game outside of HS. where you are constantly under threat. wardecs and gankers give you that opportinity, with the added layer of safety that at least in HS you only really need to keep a watch out for known gankers (who should be set red to you anyways) and wartargets.

if you do get decced, use it as a teaching experience, teach your newbros how to operate with hostiles in the area, teach them how to fight back, or if you don't have the numbers or the skill to fight back effectively, teach them that sometimes relocation is the best option and move somewhere safer (I practically guarantee you that unless you have done something major to **** the deccers off personally, they aren't going to follow you to another region) teach them how to use out of corp alts to do their shopping. if they don't have out of corp alts, then set one up yourself and offer corp logistics and hauling.

if you doing all of that, and they still leave, then they never would have survived in eve to begin with.
and if you are unable, or unwilling to provide that, then maybe you shouldn't be leading a newbro corp.



During the many times I've spent time in Empire I and my corp/alliance has been involved in many wars, some we lost some we won. There was never a problem beyond the normal inconvenience it caused. But when they go to the extremes they do now then that is not I believe what was originally intended. Permanent wardecs happen regularly for one and that is not what the game was originally intended for....these guys are trying to recreate Null sec in empire the only difference is they can pick and choose their victims. You have played eve almost as long as me so you should remember how it was originally. War decs happened and then they finished, and everyone went about their normal business.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#33 - 2017-03-28 19:20:08 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Calm down miner.

As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining...

I mean why would anyone just start to excavate ore without even asking who owns the place? Seams a bit strange to me if you then come to the forums because your illegal equipment was confiscated.

Who is the real criminal here?


this is amazing Lol

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#34 - 2017-03-28 19:25:27 UTC
if new players are not logging in because of a wardec, the CEO of their Corp needs to take a look at himself. That's where the issue is. It's not with Wardecs, but with people who take on new players into their Corp, but have no clue how to handle something as simple to deal with as a wardec.

Wardecs are a risk of being in a Corporation. Even if the CEO has no real business leading a Corp, at the very least, he should just tell his players to drop Corp. Wardecs are a completely voluntary opt in system. They are also easy to opt out of.

So if anyone is being bullied by Wardecs, their CEO has failed them.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#35 - 2017-03-28 19:27:03 UTC
Why not part with some of your massive Corp wallet and pay for protection, I mean what else do you even do with your isk

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
DRDNOUGHT
Virtual Warriors
#36 - 2017-03-28 19:28:15 UTC
I'm grateful for all your opinions guys, but they are based on your own experiences, most of you want to pvp....hell I want to pvp too.......I don't need empire to do it I do it low sec or null. I also agree war decs are a learning experience for those that wish to embrace it.....none of you mention about the players that play eve for some of the other careers available. Its all well and good to belittle these guys and tell them to get out if its too hot for them. there are a lot of them, how many industrial corporations do you have in your alliances....yes most can shoot too, many don't. Im not suggesting big changes here just idea's on improvements that may help to keep some of those players in game who otherwise would move on.
Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
#37 - 2017-03-28 19:32:48 UTC
DRDNOUGHT wrote:
Your advice is sound and you have my respect for it, in the real world though fighting back and even if you win, attracts more war decs and defeats the object..... Ive done it many times in my eve career.


Although I disagree with your premise that the wardec system is broken, I wholeheartedly agree with this. War-deccers are looking for content. Giving it to them encourages an extension on the wardec. Avoidance is really the only viable discouragement.
Lara Agnon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2017-03-28 19:34:32 UTC
It has been said before but let me say it again: People who leave eve because of a wardec or otherwise 'forced' pvp should do it. Because they will not be happy in this game. Let them go. Look for others. Eve is a niche game and will stay like that. If you mess with the niche, you directly mess with the current player base.
Cherry Sulphate
ojingo
#39 - 2017-03-28 19:39:39 UTC
today, at work, i was having to plough through a whole bunch of client documentation.
it just seemed like words for words sake; so many words and so little said.
something somebody wrote to justify getting paid.

reading the OP is like being back at work.
dirty OP.
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2017-03-28 19:58:56 UTC
DRDNOUGHT wrote:
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
[quote=DRDNOUGHT][quote=Bjorn Tyrson]
War deccing IS a part of the game, one that not everyone actually does get a chance to experience.
Eve is a hostile universe, and everywhere you go (with the exception of HS) you are CONSTANTLY under threat, trade hubs are dangerous for EVERYONE not just new players, in low-sec and null-sec, you are never safe unless you are alone or in a system full of blues. and not always even then. In WH's you don't even have the advantage of local for intel making things even riskier again.

coddling players, and keeping them safe does absolutely nothing to prepare them for the game outside of HS. where you are constantly under threat. wardecs and gankers give you that opportinity, with the added layer of safety that at least in HS you only really need to keep a watch out for known gankers (who should be set red to you anyways) and wartargets.

if you do get decced, use it as a teaching experience, teach your newbros how to operate with hostiles in the area, teach them how to fight back, or if you don't have the numbers or the skill to fight back effectively, teach them that sometimes relocation is the best option and move somewhere safer (I practically guarantee you that unless you have done something major to **** the deccers off personally, they aren't going to follow you to another region) teach them how to use out of corp alts to do their shopping. if they don't have out of corp alts, then set one up yourself and offer corp logistics and hauling.

if you doing all of that, and they still leave, then they never would have survived in eve to begin with.
and if you are unable, or unwilling to provide that, then maybe you shouldn't be leading a newbro corp.



During the many times I've spent time in Empire I and my corp/alliance has been involved in many wars, some we lost some we won. There was never a problem beyond the normal inconvenience it caused. But when they go to the extremes they do now then that is not I believe what was originally intended. Permanent wardecs happen regularly for one and that is not what the game was originally intended for....these guys are trying to recreate Null sec in empire the only difference is they can pick and choose their victims. You have played eve almost as long as me so you should remember how it was originally. War decs happened and then they finished, and everyone went about their normal business.


Many things have changed since those days, the sov system has been completely revamped at least twice. wormholes are a thing now, faction warfare started. empires have risen and fallen, hulkageddons has come and gone. permadecking was a thing then just as it is now, it wasn't quite as common but it still happened. and back then, just as now, there where easy enough ways to avoid them. if anything they have become even easier to avoid since industrials and freighters have been buffed considerably, and out of corp logistics is now the norm for everyone not just null entities.