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Dev blog: Introducing Upwell Refineries

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SIEGE RED
The Darwin Foundation
#201 - 2017-03-23 00:20:54 UTC
Leo Augustus wrote:
There are two issues at play here.

Moon Mining

Reactions and t2 production...

Agreed, moon mining is very passive income. As much as I hate the thought of introducing serious mining into t2 production, I can see where the thought is coming from. This might also equalize prices across moons, as r16 and r8 mats might actually be in demand owing to labor shortages.

I still think the concept of generating "content" by forcing relatively defenseless ships to sit at a known area at a specified time is very lacking, but that's what we have with entosising and the nerf of off grid boosts.

There's two types pvp... pvp for fun, which industrialists don't generally revel in, and there's pvp to save your system, structures, sov, etc. Industrialists and political powers will fight and finance to the death if only to keep from having to redo their spreadsheets. To my mind, that's real content, but to each his own. With asset safety, a lot of content has been reduced to miner tackled, save or don't save him.

Reacting is not really passive income, requiring substantial logistics, daily maintenance, upkeep of cyno and trade alts, and active regional defense. Until now, it was essentially separate from typical t2 production with the vast majority of t2 builders beginning at finished reactions or even components. It is, however, a living a determined spreadsheeter could achieve largely on one toon if part of a cooperative alliance.

Moving reactions into the industry UI really turns it into T1 production. You've just added a new class of asteroids and two entirely redundant steps to the typical process. Instead of reaction - component - ship, it's first level reaction, final reaction, components, ships.

This reduces the complexity of t2 production and increases the redundancy and tedium... more flavors of asteroids/minerals, more steps in process, but no unique process, substantive investment, or expertise... just a skill and a citadel. It's akin to mining relic sites for relic dust that a 5M bpo turns into ancient salvage.

If it made any sense to me, I'd try to be on board.

When did I miss the outcry about there not being enough mining required in Eve? Who has been begging for more 80Msp proteus vs 6m sp npc corp mining alt "rich content" pvp?

Who has been clamoring for redundancy in t2 production?

I'm serious, someone please explain to me, like I'm an idiot, what the point is. I keep expecting CCP to evemail me explaining how they've totally reconsidered given all my excellent insights, but so far, nuthin.. lol



The first bit, it's a classic terminology or language problem. Different perspectives use different terms and focus on different reception of those. While many players may or may not just assume things, I don't think CCP does. At least not anymore.

In regards to the second bit, that's classic cui bono. Who benefits. Combine that with how CCP approaches the statistics of health, and what their prime instrument of feedback tests is.

And yes, I agree that none of this is really new, it's just replacement mechanisms without instigating functional change. It's a big thing, but it is symbolic in its replacement of current affairs - at least with this concept "as is".


Incidentally, mining for mysterious reasons remains popular throughout the ages. I suppose it's a bit like being able to be in space, flying your own ship, but when the wife or kid or homework calls you can step out. It's accessible, low key participation, easy consumption. Ideal to build upon for a growing population which in broad terms does not go as deep as - for example - high level player groups or EVE junkies. I get why mining is an obvious thing to look at for CCP. I would wager that in all the surveys they've had quite a bit of interesting responses in the line of "do not change mining zomg".

SIEGE RED
The Darwin Foundation
#202 - 2017-03-23 00:21:44 UTC
Querns wrote:
Hilti Enaka wrote:
WTF is Fozzie doing.

You do realise this is a game right? You do realise people sign in to escape horrible ******* mudane interactions with work, wives and kids....

**** this game I so looking forward to this and left incredibly disappointed. Your also feeding the ******* goats in high sec who can IsBox the hell out of their clients and make easy quick risk free wins. Let's all just be ******* gankers.


You do realize that none of the mining stuff in this devblog is going to be in highsec, right? All highsec gets from this is a reprocessing structure.


And just maybe, compression tax Cool That's a nice bone to throw, no?
Punctator
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#203 - 2017-03-23 00:24:23 UTC
Wow CCP - this is one of the MOST AWESOME change you will ever do in this game.
Should do this ages ago...
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#204 - 2017-03-23 00:32:53 UTC
Make it so they can fit 2 or more rigs for refining. I have always thought the High sec/low sec limitation on either or was silly. Itll be extra silly with these new structures. Otherwise they sound great :)
Hilti Enaka
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#205 - 2017-03-23 00:33:45 UTC
Leo Augustus wrote:
There are two issues at play here.

Moon Mining

Reactions and t2 production...

Agreed, moon mining is very passive income. As much as I hate the thought of introducing serious mining into t2 production, I can see where the thought is coming from. This might also equalize prices across moons, as r16 and r8 mats might actually be in demand owing to labor shortages.

I still think the concept of generating "content" by forcing relatively defenseless ships to sit at a known area at a specified time is very lacking, but that's what we have with entosising and the nerf of off grid boosts.

There's two types pvp... pvp for fun, which industrialists don't generally revel in, and there's pvp to save your system, structures, sov, etc. Industrialists and political powers will fight and finance to the death if only to keep from having to redo their spreadsheets. To my mind, that's real content, but to each his own. With asset safety, a lot of content has been reduced to miner tackled, save or don't save him.

Reacting is not really passive income, requiring substantial logistics, daily maintenance, upkeep of cyno and trade alts, and active regional defense. Until now, it was essentially separate from typical t2 production with the vast majority of t2 builders beginning at finished reactions or even components. It is, however, a living a determined spreadsheeter could achieve largely on one toon if part of a cooperative alliance.

Moving reactions into the industry UI really turns it into T1 production. You've just added a new class of asteroids and two entirely redundant steps to the typical process. Instead of reaction - component - ship, it's first level reaction, final reaction, components, ships.

This reduces the complexity of t2 production and increases the redundancy and tedium... more flavors of asteroids/minerals, more steps in process, but no unique process, substantive investment, or expertise... just a skill and a citadel. It's akin to mining relic sites for relic dust that a 5M bpo turns into ancient salvage.

If it made any sense to me, I'd try to be on board.

When did I miss the outcry about there not being enough mining required in Eve? Who has been begging for more 80Msp proteus vs 6m sp npc corp mining alt "rich content" pvp?

Who has been clamoring for redundancy in t2 production?

I'm serious, someone please explain to me, like I'm an idiot, what the point is. I keep expecting CCP to evemail me explaining how they've totally reconsidered given all my excellent insights, but so far, nuthin.. lol



Absolutely hit the head on the nail with this.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#206 - 2017-03-23 00:46:38 UTC
If you're still not going to allow us to extract moon goo in J-Space, perhaps you might consider a different mechanic for us fringe dwellers.

Instead of breaking off a chunk of moon that contains moon goo, how about it breaks off a chunk of moon that then spawns a regular Ore Anomaly or even an Ice or Gas Site in the hole? The longer the fracking process, the *better* the ore/gas/ice site spawned?

Or just give us regular Asteroid Belts in wormholes.....

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Fish Hunter
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#207 - 2017-03-23 00:56:54 UTC
Saw some other responses and maybe this would be a good chance to GET RID OF THE MULTIPLE REACTIONS STEPS!!! Just change the tech 2 component bpos to use moon minerals. Big smile
ll Kuray ll
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#208 - 2017-03-23 01:14:12 UTC
Let's make the game even duller than it already is by now making people mine instead of PVP enjoying the beautiful parts of the game, instead treat eve like your 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th job...

Well done Fozzie, you've delivered another smack into the community. The focus was how to make Moon Mining a more active activity. The best suggestion and the one most wanted was for moon minerals to be added to something that can be mined in asteroid belts and anoms. Not this BS that also affects a fairly active profession in creating t2 material already. t2 prices are going to sore because of it and with the introduction of Alpha's i see a mass amount of people saying to the hell with it.

Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#209 - 2017-03-23 01:22:17 UTC
ll Kuray ll wrote:
Let's make the game even duller than it already is by now making people mine instead of PVP enjoying the beautiful parts of the game, instead treat eve like your 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th job...

Well done Fozzie, you've delivered another smack into the community. The focus was how to make Moon Mining a more active activity. The best suggestion and the one most wanted was for moon minerals to be added to something that can be mined in asteroid belts and anoms. Not this BS that also affects a fairly active profession in creating t2 material already. t2 prices are going to sore because of it and with the introduction of Alpha's i see a mass amount of people saying to the hell with it.


I was thinking about that. They cant possibly think that the T2 mats will be even remotely reasonable..
ll Kuray ll
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#210 - 2017-03-23 01:33:07 UTC  |  Edited by: ll Kuray ll
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
ll Kuray ll wrote:
Let's make the game even duller than it already is by now making people mine instead of PVP enjoying the beautiful parts of the game, instead treat eve like your 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th job...

Well done Fozzie, you've delivered another smack into the community. The focus was how to make Moon Mining a more active activity. The best suggestion and the one most wanted was for moon minerals to be added to something that can be mined in asteroid belts and anoms. Not this BS that also affects a fairly active profession in creating t2 material already. t2 prices are going to sore because of it and with the introduction of Alpha's i see a mass amount of people saying to the hell with it.


I was thinking about that. They cant possibly think that the T2 mats will be even remotely reasonable..


I can't actually believe this has been proposed. You can't change gamer mentality and if adding additional brain numbing resource collecting is the best Fozzie has then I have no confidence in the devs of this company.

Pretty much turned T2 production in to something that null sec will own. If you think they will happily transport their matts to high sec after they just spent days weeks and months waiting for it to be fracked then Fozzie is smoking something.
TravellerDEP
Department of Defence
Get Off My Lawn
#211 - 2017-03-23 01:35:35 UTC
We had a saying when I was in the service, KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid. What the heck is this?? Maybe you should talk to some engineers about how they would do things because this sure sounds like I have to sit somewhere with my thumb up my butt waiting for a timer to countdown.
This is more or less a mining operation and if you look at any of the operations currently in existence there is a steady stream of materials being produced not a burst of materials then wait for days or weeks and then another burst. If you're trying to get more people involved in the process, sad news, you'll lose people because its sounding like it will be more difficult. There's enough people who don't like mining because its so mind numbingly boring, and you're creating something like that for moon harvesting, so you won't be getting people falling all over themselves to do it.
Leo Augustus
Rolex Classic
#212 - 2017-03-23 01:40:49 UTC
MAYBE the goal is to entice hs miners to move/live in ls or nul w very lucrative mining work avail from established nul alliances desperate for labor?

I used to be one. the hs miner is a unique being. I don't see them embracing api's, voice coms, and four third party apps so they can be treated like shi* in nul and have to beg for help importing basic fits.

Big deal nul miners are generally cap builders with little interest in moon goo (since the only t2 caps are jf's which can only be built at a loss.. lol) They enjoy building large ships and aren't as motivated by pure isk per hour, or they'd never mine spod or gneiss.

I'm a younger toon, so feel free to correct me, but I thought the understanding was wh's best or t3... sov nul best or t2 and caps... hs best for finance, logistics, missioning and very casual play.

Just don't believe there are, or can be, enough pure isk/hr miners able or willing to live in nul for t2 to cost less than deadspace faction
Punctator
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#213 - 2017-03-23 01:45:53 UTC
ll Kuray ll wrote:
Let's make the game even duller than it already is by now making people mine instead of PVP enjoying the beautiful parts of the game, instead treat eve like your 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th job...


no no no no no men no. You will se what happend to your all moons on lowsec after this Big smile
ahahahah
ll Kuray ll
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#214 - 2017-03-23 01:47:21 UTC  |  Edited by: ll Kuray ll
This suggestion doesn't even come close to gaming style and personas. Do some research and you'll see people who play MMORGP's want to do things solo and in small groups... When will Fozzie learn this?
Punctator
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#215 - 2017-03-23 01:56:47 UTC
yes it will be very enjoyable stiling moon goo from pandemic.
very,.. very... people generaly love you guys Lol
Edek Hawker
Did he say Jump
Deepwater Hooligans
#216 - 2017-03-23 02:05:57 UTC
Sassums wrote:
So if I am reading this correctly you are continuing to cater to the null sec folks while WH people receive no love.

T3 was our only production option in WH space that didnt require us to leave the WH to produce - with gas reaction BPO's requiring Ice products we will now either have to go out to HS to purchase said ice or roll until we find a shattered that has ice belts (that will almost always guarantee a gank)

T3 Production should continue to be a W-Space product and should not require K-Space components.

If this is changing then W-Space should be allowed to harvest resources from the moons of the systems we inhabit.

If not - remove the stupid ice requirement from T3 reactions.


HEAR! HEAR!
Though unlike a lot of other wormholers I could care less about moon harvesting if its a null sec/low sec niche that is fine let it be I personally have no problem with NOT being able to mine moon goo in w-space.
Now about adding ice products to T3 reactions..
T3 production is w-spaces niche either
1) Don't mess with it leave out the ice products and let things stand as they are
OR
2) Add ice field ore anomolies to EVERY w-space system's randomizer for anomolies to appear
For the Gent above is correct in that having to roll a connection for a shattered WH is ridiculous and even if you do find one mining ice there is a gank fest waiting to happen. It will be much more secure to be able to mine ice in your home system.
I'm not a whiner and I'm happy to work with the upcoming changes just please use a little common sense when making production requirement changes to T3 manufacturing. T3 production is already a high end product with a high skill set requirement both to manufacture and fly them. They have a decently high price tag to go with them. Lets not make them ridiculously hard to produce from homegrown materials per say. Niches are good from the business perspective, The T3 production and trade actually encourages W-space to interact with K-space for I have to get my finished product to market if I can't finish my product in w-space or it takes longer to make in in w-space then It will be longer until I go to k-space.
Esnaf Origin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#217 - 2017-03-23 02:46:14 UTC
A quick fix for "dead" lowsec/hisec/whateversec.

Make that there are different materials/minerals/moongoo obtainable from exploring/mining/drilling in highsec/lowsec/nullsec. Make that there is demand for all of those materials - as the production of different items need a bit of materials from all kind of security space.

An example:

There is some great ship that can be build from many different components.
10% are components from highsec exploration
10% are components from lowsec exploration
10% are components from nullsec exploration
10% are components from wh exploration
10% are components from highsec mining
10% are components from lowsec mining
10% are components from nullsec mining
10% are components from wh mining
10% are components from lowsec moon drilling
10% are components from nullsec moon drilling

etc.

You can't get any of the components from for example lowsec mining from mining in null/highsec, only from lowsec. Same for all the other combination.

So whenever there is high supply of some mats (for example null moons/rorquals mining, highsec mining etc) the prices for related mats will get low and ppl will slowly shift into other activities/security space.
Whenever there is low supply (lowsec moon drilling, mining, wh exploration etc) prices for related mats will be get high and more ppl will perform that activity in that security space.
Market will regulate it, without making some security space sectors artificialy better than the rest.

Of course, the harder to live in some space, the riskier it is to operate there, the less ppl will be able to perform those activities there and the prices will be higher.

That will fix the problem of "dead" lowsec and the problem of very rewarding nullsec regions, where it's currently safer to live, rat and mine than in hisec.
FeMalogalotalotim
Renegade Stars
Stellae Renascitur
#218 - 2017-03-23 02:47:41 UTC
Quote:
The Mining Ledger

With all this new activity around the moons of New Eden, the corporations claiming the moons will need new tools for tracking what’s going on in their territory. The mining ledger is the new open-ended tool for Refinery owners to keep track of who is mining in their belt.


Remove that **** option and it will be ok i think. Otherwise all the big alliances will simply use smaller players to make money for them, i.e. more money and less work.
Locke Beulve
Splintered Dreams
Brave Collective
#219 - 2017-03-23 03:10:30 UTC
Quote:
Refineries will also bring changes to the system for reacting moon materials and gasses into more advanced materials. Reactions are a key part of the resource processing chain for Tech-2 items, Tech-3 ships, and boosters, and we believe that the current reaction system using starbases has a lot of room to improve in user experience and quality of life.


Concur with this.

Quote:
The existing reactions will be converted to new blueprints that enable the reaction process in the new system, and new reactions will include small amounts of ice products in each run to compensate for the lower number of starbase towers needed for advanced industry.


Whoaaaaaa there. Already ice products are required to be used to fuel these structures, which makes use of ice mats. There's no need to go overboard and make the fuel block prices skyrocket even more then they already are from shortages of Strontium. There is huge potential for these new structures, but lets not reinvent the wheel here.
Leo Augustus
Rolex Classic
#220 - 2017-03-23 03:23:48 UTC
Querns wrote:
Leo Augustus wrote:
Moons won't be "freed up." It's just more tedium to extract the goodies.

Anyone planning on taking a fleet of hulks into PL space to mine under their cit's guns, nm their fleet?

Sign me up for that.. lol.


Moons will be "freed up" in the sense that it makes zero sense to pay fuel every month to hold a moon that you lack the manpower to exploit.


We have hostile cits and pos's dropped in our space simply to generate content on the off chance that the deploying force has the peeps online to defend. Often they don't and it dies without a fight. I wouldn't count on rational thought dictating behavior