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Dev blog: Introducing Upwell Refineries

First post First post First post
Author
MidnightWyvern
The Bosena Accords
#121 - 2017-03-22 18:11:55 UTC
Rowells wrote:
CCP Phantom wrote:
Rowells wrote:
I'm too scared to read it. Plz tell me everything is gonna be ok. PLEASE TELL ME ITS OK.


Just pointing out ...

[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/71988/1/UpwellMoonmining_550.jpg[/img]

Last time I saw moon fracking like this there were tons of xenonorphs and it was generally bad week for everyone involved.

Make us whole again?

Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!

Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)

Messenger Of Truth
Butlerian Crusade
#122 - 2017-03-22 18:26:50 UTC
This sounds really cool - though I'm not sure about invulnerable station gunners being able to shoot ninja miners though

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Messenger Of Truth
Butlerian Crusade
#123 - 2017-03-22 18:30:20 UTC
ArmyOfMe wrote:
Why would you not make moon minerals depletable and make those money moons respawn at random regions/systems rather then this. It would make for much more conent as not only would ppl have to scan down moons, but fights would occur much more often then what they do now.


Why not your suggestion combined with this?


ArmyOfMe wrote:

Also, even tho making this an active thing, it will make life in low sec even harder, as most large alliances in low sec doesnt have industrialists in their ranks.


lowsec mining just got buffed

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Frost Dalak
Ice Dalak Conglomerate
#124 - 2017-03-22 18:31:55 UTC
Couple of questions which have probably already been asked.

1) does the moon composition stay the same? So if i'm mining platinum from a moon after the change there will still be platinum there? Are there going to be new minerals? Or is everything being reshuffled?

2) What is the planned end for old Control towers/ Arrays. Recycling? Isk compemsation? How are you handling faction upgraded pos equipment?

Thanks
Jack Reaper Jones
Frostfire Flux Industries
#125 - 2017-03-22 18:34:11 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
A set of new Upwell Structures is in the works: Behold the Upwell Refineries!

Refineries will be the premiere structure for resource collection and processing. They have bonuses to reprocessing and the exclusive ability to fit moon mining and reaction service modules.This will give us completely new gameplay for moon mining and reactions, as well as linking into future resource collection gameplay.

Check out the exciting details in this blog Introducing Upwell Refineries



Why do you hate wormholes so much? Seriously.
Leo Augustus
Rolex Classic
#126 - 2017-03-22 18:36:46 UTC
So, I see some good and some bad.

Physically mining the goo is fine I suppose. The market will figure that out and moon holders will charge for the privilege. It might generate a little content... as fun as dying mining or killing miners can be I guess. I give a plus to the fact that it opens up rarer moon mats to more junior members and that their efforts (mine really.. lol) might allow them to pursue industrial activities typically reserved for established moon hogs or senior leadership... cuz u know senior leadership aint gonna be out there grinding rocks, regardless of type.

What I don't like is reactions moving into the cits... more specifically, reactions becoming part of the standard industry UI.

As is, running reactions is one of the very few ways, at least that I've found, that a single toon can scale up operations to the limits of their time and isk available. That is to say, if I want to babysit 30 large faction towers, I'm free to do so.

Ofc, I need to be in a secure ls/ns alliance and it's a tens of billion of isk investment with a lot of risk and a fair upside.

Point being, reacting is an activity you can do with your main and need not be farmed out to a small army of alts like large scale PI or multi-toon t2 or t3 production with indy slot and/or planetary caps.

I'm the first in line to say that the POS reaction UI is dated and very buggy, but can't escape the reality that moving reactions into standard industry just adds another layer to arguably the most tedious production process (T2) and effectively removes running reactions as a main character vocation.

If you dislike the guy running a dozen towers soaked in isk, you'll really dislike the guy running 9 accounts with two dedicated trade alts grinding reactions for fractional margins that add up to a lot. Please don't turn reacting into station trading.

So, what would make sense then.

1) Keep reactions tethered to moon structures in such a way that a limited (one to three, depending on structure size, fit, and rigs) number that can be run per reaction cit

2) No limit on number of cits or reactions a single character can run.

3) Possibly limit the types of reactions (or provide significant financial penalties) that can be performed in low-sec.

Otherwise, here's what I forsee happening.

1) I dump all my cyno alts and retrain them in the refining skill cuz I no longer need to export from deep nul.
2) I park all my new reacting alts in a ls system one jump from a hs gate, 5 jumps to Jita
3) Trade alt in Jita, up a penny, up a penny, up a penny on raw moon mats (puking as I type this)
4) Undock JF, jump to cyno in ls, offload
5) log in toon after toon after toon and start running reaction bpo's
6) Fill up w finished reactions, undock and align to hs gate, always ready to redock so never die
7) Fly to Jita, place sell orders, down a penny, down a penny, down a penny (puking again)

Today there is huge volatility and opportunity in the reaction biz. Yes, this owes in part to the availability of moon goo, but it's also owing to the limited number of "slots=pos" to react in, the investment required, and the gluts and scarcity caused by everyone jumping on what's hot atm.

It's quite possible to win or lose big buying from sell orders and selling to buy. Remove that volatility and all the benefits accrue to the truly massive 6 account player who spends all day station spinning.
Lexia Nova
Manufactorum.
#127 - 2017-03-22 18:37:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexia Nova
I hope I am not being too optimistic too soon but the new moon mining plan actually has me a little excited! (As far as mining excitement goes mind you) but yea I certainly look forward to seeing how that plays out.Big smile

On further thought, right now many corps and alliances control way more than just one or two moons. They also need many moons for the various resources needed.

How are we going to mine that many different moon types? Even with a reasonable mining force the task seems insurmountable. The new system must really be changing things up in terms of the resource types for this to work out.
Lunarstorm95
Godless Horizon.
The Initiative.
#128 - 2017-03-22 18:37:40 UTC
Querns wrote:
Lunarstorm95 wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
I love this, mainly because of all the tears from "passive income elites" who are now going to chase to either be poor OR (*GASP*) make room in their elite PVP only alliances/coaltions for dirty dirty Mining guys they will need protecting.

Did I mention that I love this?


Yeah ur gana love this until you realize you will be mining weekly only for all ur moon roids to be going to the alliance, alliance is not gana let you keep the goo....

Alliance is not gana spend money on the fuel and refinery only to launch the roids into space and let the miners take what they can mine and go spend it on more crystals... alliance will need all the money it can get from the rocks to supplement srp and infrastructure costs. Even more so since it wont be able to mine nearly as many moons as they do now, so it will need every isk from the moon meaning you wont be getting a decent, if any, cut.


Maybe your alliance won't let you keep the goo from refineries.


My point, alliance like goons can live without it, this patch is great for the big super bloc alliances, kills small/med alliances.

“You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.” ― Robert A. Heinlein "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." ― Confucius 

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#129 - 2017-03-22 18:38:28 UTC
MidnightWyvern wrote:
Rowells wrote:
CCP Phantom wrote:
Rowells wrote:
I'm too scared to read it. Plz tell me everything is gonna be ok. PLEASE TELL ME ITS OK.


Just pointing out ...

[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/71988/1/UpwellMoonmining_550.jpg[/img]

Last time I saw moon fracking like this there were tons of xenonorphs and it was generally bad week for everyone involved.

Make us whole again?



Hole-y. it was a common mistranslation. Hole-y. As in full of holes.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Soleil Fournier
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#130 - 2017-03-22 18:39:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Soleil Fournier
The two big questions with these is what will moon distribution look like and will they generate conflict. The first is yet to be determined, but lets talk about conflict.

Right now sov is boring. A lack of -meaningful- objectives to go after on a daily/weekly basis is the cause. The refineries mining moons have the potential to give us that daily/weekly content and provide players a method of true economic warfare.

The key here is what will happen on that first reinforcement timer?

If the answer is "The extraction job is Paused," then glorious content awaits us. Players will form fleets and set out to hostile space to hurt their opponents economically by reinforcing structures and pausing their paydays. This dynamic will lead to daily conflict.

If the answer is "Not much until the 2nd timer," then little content will be created:

Players won't want to form and grind through a reinforcement timer deep in hostile space only to come back on the 2nd timer to find a gigantic super fleet sitting on it. They will only do this if they intend to destroy the structure and control the moon for themselves - which is unlikely if they are venturing far away from home or deep into hostile territory. Conflict in this scenario will only happen every so often/rarely - about as often as they do today when moons change hands. Yes, players will form mining hunting parties, but we can already do this today and it's clear that it's not enough to keep things churning in sov.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2017-03-22 18:43:05 UTC
There are exactly two structures which profit from in-house reprocessing services, Refineries and Engineering Complexes. Why not giving EC also a bonus to reprocessing?

I mean without that, an optimal production setup would need both a Refinery + and EC, and mindless hauling of minerals from R to EC. This is IMO bad game design, to be able to improve performance only through grinding.

I'm my own NPC alt.

MidnightWyvern
The Bosena Accords
#132 - 2017-03-22 18:46:59 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
MidnightWyvern wrote:
Rowells wrote:
CCP Phantom wrote:
Rowells wrote:
I'm too scared to read it. Plz tell me everything is gonna be ok. PLEASE TELL ME ITS OK.


Just pointing out ...

[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/71988/1/UpwellMoonmining_550.jpg[/img]

Last time I saw moon fracking like this there were tons of xenonorphs and it was generally bad week for everyone involved.

Make us whole again?



Hole-y. it was a common mistranslation. Hole-y. As in full of holes.

That certainly fits much better with what was actually going on.

Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!

Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#133 - 2017-03-22 18:47:05 UTC
Lunarstorm95 wrote:
Querns wrote:
Lunarstorm95 wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
I love this, mainly because of all the tears from "passive income elites" who are now going to chase to either be poor OR (*GASP*) make room in their elite PVP only alliances/coaltions for dirty dirty Mining guys they will need protecting.

Did I mention that I love this?


Yeah ur gana love this until you realize you will be mining weekly only for all ur moon roids to be going to the alliance, alliance is not gana let you keep the goo....

Alliance is not gana spend money on the fuel and refinery only to launch the roids into space and let the miners take what they can mine and go spend it on more crystals... alliance will need all the money it can get from the rocks to supplement srp and infrastructure costs. Even more so since it wont be able to mine nearly as many moons as they do now, so it will need every isk from the moon meaning you wont be getting a decent, if any, cut.


Maybe your alliance won't let you keep the goo from refineries.


My point, alliance like goons can live without it, this patch is great for the big super bloc alliances, kills small/med alliances.


How so? Tons of R64s are going to go up for grabs. There's no way the tiny iceberg alliances have the manpower to exploit them.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Zanar Skwigelf
Wormhoppers Inc.
#134 - 2017-03-22 18:57:54 UTC
Are you picturing it:

A lone prospect flies thru a system and noticed a moon goo belt with no one else in local. He lights a covert cyno, and 20-30 more prospects are bridged into the system.

After filling up their 10km3 holds, they all make it back home, dump off the goo, and look for another empty belt to bridge into.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#135 - 2017-03-22 18:59:25 UTC
I pretty much agree with Querns on every count. I think a great many moons in sparcely populated nul/losec are about to go up for grabs. Any place with a poor population density is going to be borderline useless unless you care to titan bridge in a mining fleet.

WTB tickets to watch PL or NC. mining in titans.

And with moon mining moving to actual mining in ships, AFK cloakers and blops are going to suddenly become far more relevant.

Sad to see Syphons going away. But I can't see any situation where retooling them into some sort of auto-mining device wouldn't be seriously OP.

And finally, buy moon goo now.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#136 - 2017-03-22 19:07:32 UTC
Question: Will this mean an end to regionalized moon-goo sourcing?

Right now, T2 production in nulsec is virtually impossible, as it requires a wide assortment of moon products, from all over the universe. The materials are only reasonably obtained at a major trade hub, like Jita, which also means that manufacturing T2 in hisec rather nulsec is more convenient than importing moon products.
Leo Augustus
Rolex Classic
#137 - 2017-03-22 19:07:35 UTC
Also, if the objective is to replace siphon units, encourage pvp, allow alliances to disrupt others' revenue streams, there has got to be a better way that to force peeps to physically mine an asteroid field.

At a bare minimum, the moon cit should provide the equivalent of rorq boosts within an appropriate zone.

Like others have said, that goo is gonna be the alliance's one way or the other. Why force ur recently converted alphas to die like flies in procs in those joyful "alliance mining ops."

If it's content ur after, or income deprivation, make a new "jackhammer" high slot that can break off a chunk and be stolen.

Make the moon chunk targetable/destroyable for 6-12 hours after it has "cleared the moon's atmosphere" and is nearly ready for the moon cit to process.

Aside from the fact that it's inconceivable that in a day and age where we've overcome biology and death that a 6B structure can't operate a mining laser... lol.. mining is boring. Killing miners is not challenging, and dying as a noob player/miner should be somewhat avoidable. You're just putting fish in a barrel.
Pestilen Ratte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2017-03-22 19:07:45 UTC
The Great Moon Goo Nerf of '17

Hear ye, hear ye, be it known that the Nerf Bat of Destruction has fallen upon the solo moon miners of New Eden.

Behold, the calculus of these wretched space losers:

Net Outcome of Moon Operations:

= Same at max. Potentially much lower. (Zero Gain.)

Net Inputs for Moon Mining:

1. Fuel costs for drilling = same

2. The activity of mining the asteroids = ++++++NERF++++++

Big smile

Total nerf. The whole mining investment of time is 100% extra effort for no extra reward. watanerf.

In the TESTICLES.

That is what you get. I told ya. I said, "That is what ya get, for mining them moons."

Well, this means that the cost of moon goo, and all the things made from it (Tech 2), will go up, and bigly.

Oh my, the inflation in new eden!

Still, we can't throw out the good in search of the perfect.

Just the other day I was talking to my bro and I said "Bro", I said, "I think what we need here in nul sec is more mining."

"More mining?" he asked me.

"Yes" I said, all solemn and serious. "what with the ice mining and the ore mining, a fella can't get enough mining done so as not to get frightfully bored with the whole enterprise."

"I see." said my bro. But I could sort of tell that he didn't.
Titus Tallang
EVE University
Ivy League
#139 - 2017-03-22 19:09:53 UTC
When the patch removes certain rigs from existing ECs/Citadels, what hangar will they end up in?

Director of Education - EVE University - http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/

Gyges Skyeye
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#140 - 2017-03-22 19:11:22 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:
This is a bit of a wild idea, but it's a thought that would throw a bone to lowsec.

What if the quality of these moon belts were inversely proportional to the security status of the system compared to what we have now (where the lower the truesec, the better the asteroid belts, rats, moons, etc)? Higher truesec would have better moon belts, meaning that lowsec would be the go-to for harvesting moon minerals.

....

This would also make nullsec sov with poor truesec a better place to call home, in addition to throwing a bone to lowsec.


A mix of gradients as to what defines 'good' space enriches the game. I would support this change. (As a corollary further sharpening the distinction by increasing ratting and ore variant payouts in the large truesec ares if this idea went through)


Winter Archipelago wrote:

A lore-related bit behind this is that a part of the reason that highsec is highsec is because that's where the best resources / minerals are at (with the empires holding exclusive rights on the "good" ore there, and our scanners being prevented from even seeing it in the belts), and it's where the empires are most willing to defend (beyond simply having a manpower-related reason). From 0.5 through 1.0, the resources are good enough that the empires are willing to put forth a significant amount of effort to defend them. 0.1 through 0.4 are still empire, but aren't good enough for the empires to put effort into their own mining operations, thus opening it to Capsuleers.


As good a story as any. I would just add the extra irony of placing enriched variety R8 moons into high sec since the Empires couldn't be bothered to tower refinery those moons.