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[March] Rorqual and Mining changes

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Author
Rachel Syne
Killing with pink power
Penguins with lasorz
#741 - 2017-03-07 17:33:26 UTC
Sarah Flynt wrote:
Huydo wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/PtL3r61.png ~46mio/h

So i tested it on the test server now. And with almost the same fitting (only tank is different ) i got less than 50mio per hour on mining.


Rorq content is official DEAD now. As no one will want to risk a 15b ship in a Belt for less than 50mio per hour.

Wow, that's good news. Now remove the siege timer and the PANIC module and the Rorqual will finally be where it should have been in the first place.


Thats spod though what is the isk/h for other smaller rocks i suspect it might be close to what it was before.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#742 - 2017-03-07 17:35:22 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Coelomate Tian wrote:
Can we get CCP confirmation that these changes are intended and going live March 14th? The original post said it was going to be explored but unlikely included in the suite of changes this patch.

If they are intended, would you consider a corresponding increase in drone flight time, or is this a purposeful nerf?


The impact on drone mining is expected and we did our internal practical yield testing with the new asteroid sizes to make sure that the resulting m3/hour were something we'd be happy with.

On another quick note, we've added an increase to lock ranges for the Covetor and Exhumers. +5km for the Covetor, Skiff, and Mackinaw, and +10km for the Hulk.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Philip Shazih
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#743 - 2017-03-07 18:10:53 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Coelomate Tian wrote:
Can we get CCP confirmation that these changes are intended and going live March 14th? The original post said it was going to be explored but unlikely included in the suite of changes this patch.

If they are intended, would you consider a corresponding increase in drone flight time, or is this a purposeful nerf?


The impact on drone mining is expected and we did our internal practical yield testing with the new asteroid sizes to make sure that the resulting m3/hour were something we'd be happy with.

On another quick note, we've added an increase to lock ranges for the Covetor and Exhumers. +5km for the Covetor, Skiff, and Mackinaw, and +10km for the Hulk.


Is there a reason why you first say you want to make them awesome support ships, then make them the best miner in the game so everyone buys them and then nerf the **** out of them? Or did you guys just **** up with the initial yield and didnt think we'd all be having 10 rorqs per anom?
Coelomate Tian
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#744 - 2017-03-07 18:17:06 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Coelomate Tian wrote:
Can we get CCP confirmation that these changes are intended and going live March 14th? The original post said it was going to be explored but unlikely included in the suite of changes this patch.

If they are intended, would you consider a corresponding increase in drone flight time, or is this a purposeful nerf?


The impact on drone mining is expected and we did our internal practical yield testing with the new asteroid sizes to make sure that the resulting m3/hour were something we'd be happy with.

On another quick note, we've added an increase to lock ranges for the Covetor and Exhumers. +5km for the Covetor, Skiff, and Mackinaw, and +10km for the Hulk.


Thanks for the confirmation!

(for what its worth, the new anoms ARE way prettier Smile)
Cade Windstalker
#745 - 2017-03-07 18:17:40 UTC
Note what I was talking about with the over-supply in this graph from the February MER. After the Rorqual changes the value mined shoots up to almost double before the Rorqual, and value destroyed only scoots up slightly in response.

Philip Shazih wrote:
Is there a reason why you first say you want to make them awesome support ships, then make them the best miner in the game so everyone buys them and then nerf the **** out of them? Or did you guys just **** up with the initial yield and didnt think we'd all be having 10 rorqs per anom?


Fozzie already answer that back here in this post:

Quote:
I'll readily admit that we went too high with the numbers in the initial release. However these kinds of things can always happen, and the only true solution is to be willing to make changes as necessary and observe the results. I would absolutely love to have an exact formula for predicting player behavior, but barring that all we can do is make our best guesses (taking player feedback into account) and then tweak and tweak again.
Tobias Frank
#746 - 2017-03-07 18:40:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobias Frank
Philip Shazih wrote:
Is there a reason why you first say you want to make them awesome support ships, then make them the best miner in the game so everyone buys them and then nerf the **** out of them? Or did you guys just **** up with the initial yield and didnt think we'd all be having 10 rorqs per anom?


Exactly this. Sure, player behavior is not 100% forseeable, but there are years of experience with such things. Do they (the developers) even know their game and the players?

Lets be honest, the inital Rorqual redesign was a complete failure, the whole dronemining concept is just ridiculous, inculding the pricing for the excavators.

You are just leaving a ton of dissapointed players who spent huge amounts of time and money to train into and obtain certain ships and equipment. Really frustraiting and not funny.
Coelomate Tian
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#747 - 2017-03-07 18:43:35 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Note what I was talking about with the over-supply in this graph from the February MER. After the Rorqual changes the value mined shoots up to almost double before the Rorqual, and value destroyed only scoots up slightly in response.


The mining line in that graph doesn't include rorqual mining, because drone mining amounts aren't reported in the tools used for the MER. The increase is only from more people using mining lasers.

Think about that: the graph you linked includes 0 ore mined by rorquals. Zero. None.

CCP does have that data though, imagine what it must look like...
Fonac
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#748 - 2017-03-07 18:50:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Fonac
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Coelomate Tian wrote:
Can we get CCP confirmation that these changes are intended and going live March 14th? The original post said it was going to be explored but unlikely included in the suite of changes this patch.

If they are intended, would you consider a corresponding increase in drone flight time, or is this a purposeful nerf?


The impact on drone mining is expected and we did our internal practical yield testing with the new asteroid sizes to make sure that the resulting m3/hour were something we'd be happy with.

On another quick note, we've added an increase to lock ranges for the Covetor and Exhumers. +5km for the Covetor, Skiff, and Mackinaw, and +10km for the Hulk.



hmm.
Are you sure you're happy with the results you're getting?

Getting ~50 mil an hour, munching on a spodu rock seems incredibly low.

In actual M^3 This is around 5740 M¨3 a minut.
or just above 1.5 of a hulk.

That is ridiculous in all means and forms.

1. A ship that's bogged down for 5 mins
2. about 50% more than a hulk(which comparetively to other means of income is very low)
3. a considerable investement in isk and SP.

Is it just me, or does this nerf seem a little heavy handed?... Just a little.
Coelomate Tian
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#749 - 2017-03-07 18:53:30 UTC
Fonac wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Coelomate Tian wrote:
Can we get CCP confirmation that these changes are intended and going live March 14th? The original post said it was going to be explored but unlikely included in the suite of changes this patch.

If they are intended, would you consider a corresponding increase in drone flight time, or is this a purposeful nerf?


The impact on drone mining is expected and we did our internal practical yield testing with the new asteroid sizes to make sure that the resulting m3/hour were something we'd be happy with.

On another quick note, we've added an increase to lock ranges for the Covetor and Exhumers. +5km for the Covetor, Skiff, and Mackinaw, and +10km for the Hulk.



hmm.
Are you sure you're happy with the results you're getting?

Getting ~50 mil an hour, munching on a spodu rock seems incredibly low.


Most rocks in the anom are close to the same size as before, and on those rocks, the only income reduction will likely be the expected 25% yield nerf. Only a few of the rocks are so big that yield will take a hit like that.

Also, mineral prices could easily rise after these prices, as demand remains high (caps + supers online) and supply plummets as people mine less and produce less ore when they do mine.
Arehm Bukandara
Khaprani Tribe
#750 - 2017-03-07 19:32:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Arehm Bukandara
TBH, these changes are really great. Good job, Fozzie!Smile
Brigadine Ferathine
506 Irregulars
#751 - 2017-03-07 20:48:51 UTC
Arehm Bukandara wrote:
TBH, these changes are really great. Good job, Fozzie!Smile

Troll
Rina Cotte
Moons Corporations
#752 - 2017-03-07 20:51:48 UTC
I know this maybe off topic! I'm color blind and trying to get into PI. But as you know the colors I see are very limited. Can we add a feature for this type of game play for the community?>
Arehm Bukandara
Khaprani Tribe
#753 - 2017-03-07 21:46:41 UTC
Coelomate Tian wrote:
Fonac wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Coelomate Tian wrote:
Can we get CCP confirmation that these changes are intended and going live March 14th? The original post said it was going to be explored but unlikely included in the suite of changes this patch.

If they are intended, would you consider a corresponding increase in drone flight time, or is this a purposeful nerf?


The impact on drone mining is expected and we did our internal practical yield testing with the new asteroid sizes to make sure that the resulting m3/hour were something we'd be happy with.

On another quick note, we've added an increase to lock ranges for the Covetor and Exhumers. +5km for the Covetor, Skiff, and Mackinaw, and +10km for the Hulk.



hmm.
Are you sure you're happy with the results you're getting?

Getting ~50 mil an hour, munching on a spodu rock seems incredibly low.


Most rocks in the anom are close to the same size as before, and on those rocks, the only income reduction will likely be the expected 25% yield nerf. Only a few of the rocks are so big that yield will take a hit like that.

Also, mineral prices could easily rise after these prices, as demand remains high (caps + supers online) and supply plummets as people mine less and produce less ore when they do mine.
This is why these changes are greatSmile
Cade Windstalker
#754 - 2017-03-07 21:58:23 UTC
Coelomate Tian wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Note what I was talking about with the over-supply in this graph from the February MER. After the Rorqual changes the value mined shoots up to almost double before the Rorqual, and value destroyed only scoots up slightly in response.


The mining line in that graph doesn't include rorqual mining, because drone mining amounts aren't reported in the tools used for the MER. The increase is only from more people using mining lasers.

Think about that: the graph you linked includes 0 ore mined by rorquals. Zero. None.

CCP does have that data though, imagine what it must look like...


I *believe* this is not correct, considering this is what the graph looked like when January's report was released and now there's suddenly a distinct spike right after that convenient note about drone mining metrics being bugged. CCP Fozzie or someone else will have to confirm if my suspicion about the report being fixed is correct.
Coelomate Tian
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#755 - 2017-03-07 22:26:35 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Coelomate Tian wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Note what I was talking about with the over-supply in this graph from the February MER. After the Rorqual changes the value mined shoots up to almost double before the Rorqual, and value destroyed only scoots up slightly in response.


The mining line in that graph doesn't include rorqual mining, because drone mining amounts aren't reported in the tools used for the MER. The increase is only from more people using mining lasers.

Think about that: the graph you linked includes 0 ore mined by rorquals. Zero. None.

CCP does have that data though, imagine what it must look like...


I *believe* this is not correct, considering this is what the graph looked like when January's report was released and now there's suddenly a distinct spike right after that convenient note about drone mining metrics being bugged. CCP Fozzie or someone else will have to confirm if my suspicion about the report being fixed is correct.


All you have to do is look at the Delve numbers. I guarantee you GSF isn't producing 20 trillion+++ but only mining 1-2 trillion. Drone mining is bugged, it's not included in the graph, it says so in the graph itself.

You still see a spike, IMO, because more people are doing mining of all kinds since all of the mechanics got changed and it's fresh. Also because people like me bring a few barges with their rorqual(s), since it's very little extra effort/SP required for more isk/hour.
Gisele Serebriakova
Norman's Meat Market
#756 - 2017-03-07 22:39:39 UTC
Fonac wrote:
Getting ~50 mil an hour, munching on a spodu rock seems incredibly low.


This is not too relevant. You mine because you have 3-7 accounts already doing other things; PI, manufacturing/research slots, hauling etc. Those activities produce huge amounts of ISK but are limited in the sense that the only way you can do more of it is to create another account. At some point it's better to just start mining then get 11 more production slots from an efficiency perspective.

Either that or it's just a game and I like to drink.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#757 - 2017-03-08 00:28:15 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

In fairness here we are talking about one of the lower end rocks and the largest cases of those rocks. So not every rock is going to have 60 seconds of travel to it. Also not every drone is going to end up out at that 15km point, some will end up right next to your ship.

That said, as much as I like the idea of ore belts no longer looking like feeble strings of marbles, I think it might be worth buffing the speed on the Excavators just a little to compensate for what is basically intended as a cosmetic change. Bumping the max speed by 25% would leave them still quite slow but reduce the frustration factor a little and make them slightly harder to 'boosh'.



This shows me how little you know of what you're talking about. Ark and Bistot are still the highest value (lowest amounts in belts too) and spod and crokite are the same price.
Brigadine Ferathine
506 Irregulars
#758 - 2017-03-08 00:31:54 UTC
Soko99 wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

In fairness here we are talking about one of the lower end rocks and the largest cases of those rocks. So not every rock is going to have 60 seconds of travel to it. Also not every drone is going to end up out at that 15km point, some will end up right next to your ship.

That said, as much as I like the idea of ore belts no longer looking like feeble strings of marbles, I think it might be worth buffing the speed on the Excavators just a little to compensate for what is basically intended as a cosmetic change. Bumping the max speed by 25% would leave them still quite slow but reduce the frustration factor a little and make them slightly harder to 'boosh'.



This shows me how little you know of what you're talking about. Ark and Bistot are still the highest value (lowest amounts in belts too) and spod and crokite are the same price.

It depends on refining capabilities. Pretty sure Spoud is best for refining based on output
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#759 - 2017-03-08 00:32:04 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Coelomate Tian wrote:
Can we get CCP confirmation that these changes are intended and going live March 14th? The original post said it was going to be explored but unlikely included in the suite of changes this patch.

If they are intended, would you consider a corresponding increase in drone flight time, or is this a purposeful nerf?


The impact on drone mining is expected and we did our internal practical yield testing with the new asteroid sizes to make sure that the resulting m3/hour were something we'd be happy with.

On another quick note, we've added an increase to lock ranges for the Covetor and Exhumers. +5km for the Covetor, Skiff, and Mackinaw, and +10km for the Hulk.



So can you confirm how you expect people to use rorqs?

I know you said earlier that you guys made the yield purposefully high to get people to use it. But I really don't know how you guys could have made such a HUGE mistake as to require it to be nerfed by 25% and then another 55% of that. So either, you guys changed your idea of what you want the rorq to be. OR you guys did it as a cash grab for all those that paid for injectors. In either case. I believe it's a shady practice.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#760 - 2017-03-08 00:35:24 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Soko99 wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

In fairness here we are talking about one of the lower end rocks and the largest cases of those rocks. So not every rock is going to have 60 seconds of travel to it. Also not every drone is going to end up out at that 15km point, some will end up right next to your ship.

That said, as much as I like the idea of ore belts no longer looking like feeble strings of marbles, I think it might be worth buffing the speed on the Excavators just a little to compensate for what is basically intended as a cosmetic change. Bumping the max speed by 25% would leave them still quite slow but reduce the frustration factor a little and make them slightly harder to 'boosh'.



This shows me how little you know of what you're talking about. Ark and Bistot are still the highest value (lowest amounts in belts too) and spod and crokite are the same price.

It depends on refining capabilities. Pretty sure Spoud is best for refining based on output



I'm using compressed as it's the way rorquals mine..