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[March] Rorqual and Mining changes

First post First post First post
Author
Cade Windstalker
#681 - 2017-03-03 22:15:05 UTC
Julie Hawke wrote:
Cade Windstalker

How is it you know about everything in EVE?

Your an expert on:

Eve Economics
Industry
Mining - in all space
Politics
PVP
and on and on and on

And your walls of text ALWAYS support a CCP position (2500 posts since 2009....)

Again, most of the hardcore Rorqual pilots who waited years for their ship to finally mean something are getting shafted and we still dont understand why

But then again CCP made a ton of money on skill injectors, new skills and resubbed rorqual accounts. For a ship nerfed twice in 4 months.

Go ahead tell me its for the good of the game and that your sorry my game experience has suffered and that I need to just suck it up and live with it.


Lol I'm flattered. No, no wait, that's the sarcasm bouncing off my forehead, my bad.

Seriously though, I'm not an expert on anything, I've gone for breadth of experience not depth. The only things I have that other people seem to lack are a general understanding on how a lot of the wider pieces fit together and the ability to separate an evidence based argument from an appeal to emotion.

Also no, I haven't always supported CCP. I was pretty against the Serpentis ships keeping their web bonus at the current strength, though I have to admit that hasn't caused anything like the problems I thought it might. Most of the time though if I don't have a constructive argument for or against something I just stay out of it. Most of the time if I don't like something I either look into the numbers and end up proving myself wrong, and thus don't post, or I can't form a coherent argument against what's being proposed and thus don't post. There are enough incoherent arguments on these forums already without me adding mine to the pile.

Was kind of surprised that it's been 2.5k posts already though. Time flies!

Anyways as to the hardcore Rorqual pilots, or at least the hardcore miners, sitting in a POS doesn't really count as piloting, you really do have my sympathies. It seems like the problem isn't so much you guys as all the combat and ratting pilots who took a look at the numbers and jumped on the Rorqual train.

All the High Sec miners who can't really PLEX right now have my sympathies too though, and I'd personally pick their side over someone who can fly a Rorqual and still make a PLEX in <10 hours any day.
oresome eyes
Ephesians trading and farming
#682 - 2017-03-03 22:15:37 UTC  |  Edited by: oresome eyes
Watch out people, CCP will bann your account if you speak out to loudly about the changes to the rorqual. They have just banned one of mine.

CCP Peligro = Cade Windstalker
Julie Hawke
Thirtyplus
Goonswarm Federation
#683 - 2017-03-03 22:41:36 UTC
oresome eyes wrote:
Watch out people, CCP will bann your account if you speak out to loudly about the changes to the rorqual. They have just banned one of mine.

CCP Peligro = Cade Windstalker



So my hunch was right

Sorry to hear about your account

I am leaning toward just letting my accounts expire and watching the mayhem from the sideline

When nullsec cant build supers and titans without importing minerals again......then stuff will get real. So much for nullsec supporting themselves.

And its really too bad that anyone believes the average high sec miner plexes their account by mining .......one ganking loss causes many to just quit.....let alone sit all day and mine.

chez1962
Thirtyplus
Goonswarm Federation
#684 - 2017-03-03 22:55:33 UTC
oresome eyes wrote:
Watch out people, CCP will bann your account if you speak out to loudly about the changes to the rorqual. They have just banned one of mine.

CCP Peligro = Cade Windstalker



Iff this is realy true , and i have no reason that its not , CCP should be deeply ashamed.



Dying is not scary, It's almost like we've been prepering for it our whole live's. But it was very sad. I didn't want to go. I love my life. I no longer try to be right. I choose to be happy.

Cade Windstalker
#685 - 2017-03-04 00:34:18 UTC
Julie Hawke wrote:
oresome eyes wrote:
Watch out people, CCP will bann your account if you speak out to loudly about the changes to the rorqual. They have just banned one of mine.

CCP Peligro = Cade Windstalker



So my hunch was right

Sorry to hear about your account

I am leaning toward just letting my accounts expire and watching the mayhem from the sideline

When nullsec cant build supers and titans without importing minerals again......then stuff will get real. So much for nullsec supporting themselves.

And its really too bad that anyone believes the average high sec miner plexes their account by mining .......one ganking loss causes many to just quit.....let alone sit all day and mine.


ROFL LolLolLol

I'm not a CCP employee, if I was I'd have been fired already for the crap I say on here.

Besides which only a few people at CCP get to actually hand out bans, precisely to prevent the kind of thing you're saying I did.

Which is hilarious by the way, since I don't think I've even seen anything in here remotely forum-ban worthy from either of you Lol

You should get out more by the way. Meet new people, experience new areas of the game. I know a decent number of High Sec miners (and a few gankers, and mission runners, ect) and a decent number of people do in fact PLEX their accounts by mining. Quite a few of them are combat pilots the rest of the time, they mine when they don't have the time or attention span for anything else to make ISK to pay for PLEX and buy ships to go lose in Low and Null.

chez1962 wrote:
Iff this is realy true , and i have no reason that its not , CCP should be deeply ashamed.


How about because if it was true someone in IA at CCP would have had an anyeurism. Oh and whichever CCP employee I'm supposed to be would be fired and "Cade" would immediately cease to exist. Outed CCP dev normal accounts get put into Witness Protection where the old identity basically gets scrubbed from the game and the character and all their stuff get whisked away somewhere else.

Seriously though, thanks for the laugh all. These accusations are hilarious. Childish, but hilarious.
Gisiona TrielGisre
Pyromaniacs Anonymous
Brave Collective
#686 - 2017-03-04 00:46:17 UTC
The answer to why the yield nerf for the Rorqual should be revised and not at all implemented:

The Rorquals are not crashing the market. Simple as that. Evidence for that? Jita market stats on the 04th march:

Megacyte: all year high
Zydrine: on a dip, but within normal parameters, was on a all year high just in January this year.

both Nullsec minerals look rather healthy, with little change in trade volume.

Noxcium: went down, slightly increased volume
Isogen: went down, slight increase in volume
Mexalon: on a all year high, slight increase in volume
Pyerite: went down, currently shows a slight upwards trend, increased Volume
Tritanium: went down, slight increased in Volume

As you see, when you check yourself ingame, the market where Rorqual influence would show is healthy, the market of HS orcas/propoises increased general miningyield is on a downwards trend, but far from what I personaly call a crash.

This nerf won´t impact the market, because it does not adress the source of the problem it wants to adress. Thats what the raw data aviable tells me. So CCP already stated it wants to nerf the rorqual even more after this nerf, and more and more until it mines only as much as a hulk berore they reliaze the Rorq has no signifcant impact on the market?

if this change goes throu as is, and CCP does not release a statement that this is the last nerf only directed to the Rorqual, I will stop paying for the game and only play with a alpha account.

CCP´s statements about the market just don´t add up with the raw data of the client. It as much as contradicts the data entirly.

I´m ok with the Panic module change as this does not change too much on the Rorqual gameplay for the average Rorqual miner.

Another option for saving the mineral market is to limit theore in space, as it has been done with the Ice-belts. turn all belts to anoms that have a respawn timer, Nullsec and Highsec. adjust the timer as neccessary. It gives CCP way better control on the mineral input into the EVE universe and hurts those that mine with multiple rorqs/orcas/propoises (afkable miningplatforms, if in save enough space/allainces) the most while not impacting smaller scale mining Operation of smaller entities.
Zenta Carson
Nugget Inc.
Commonwealth Vanguard
#687 - 2017-03-04 01:05:47 UTC
Will the Excavators be effected by the Mining Foreman Link module?
oresome eyes
Ephesians trading and farming
#688 - 2017-03-04 01:22:18 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Julie Hawke wrote:
oresome eyes wrote:
Watch out people, CCP will bann your account if you speak out to loudly about the changes to the rorqual. They have just banned one of mine.

CCP Peligro = Cade Windstalker



So my hunch was right

Sorry to hear about your account

I am leaning toward just letting my accounts expire and watching the mayhem from the sideline

When nullsec cant build supers and titans without importing minerals again......then stuff will get real. So much for nullsec supporting themselves.

And its really too bad that anyone believes the average high sec miner plexes their account by mining .......one ganking loss causes many to just quit.....let alone sit all day and mine.


ROFL LolLolLol

I'm not a CCP employee, if I was I'd have been fired already for the crap I say on here.

Besides which only a few people at CCP get to actually hand out bans, precisely to prevent the kind of thing you're saying I did.

Which is hilarious by the way, since I don't think I've even seen anything in here remotely forum-ban worthy from either of you Lol

You should get out more by the way. Meet new people, experience new areas of the game. I know a decent number of High Sec miners (and a few gankers, and mission runners, ect) and a decent number of people do in fact PLEX their accounts by mining. Quite a few of them are combat pilots the rest of the time, they mine when they don't have the time or attention span for anything else to make ISK to pay for PLEX and buy ships to go lose in Low and Null.

chez1962 wrote:
Iff this is realy true , and i have no reason that its not , CCP should be deeply ashamed.


How about because if it was true someone in IA at CCP would have had an anyeurism. Oh and whichever CCP employee I'm supposed to be would be fired and "Cade" would immediately cease to exist. Outed CCP dev normal accounts get put into Witness Protection where the old identity basically gets scrubbed from the game and the character and all their stuff get whisked away somewhere else.

Seriously though, thanks for the laugh all. These accusations are hilarious. Childish, but hilarious.


saying your not only proves my point. this is like saying im not spy....
Cade Windstalker
#689 - 2017-03-04 03:28:08 UTC
Zenta Carson wrote:
Will the Excavators be effected by the Mining Foreman Link module?


Nope, mining boosts don't affect drones.

Gisiona TrielGisre wrote:
The answer to why the yield nerf for the Rorqual should be revised and not at all implemented:

The Rorquals are not crashing the market. Simple as that. Evidence for that? Jita market stats on the 04th march:

Megacyte: all year high
Zydrine: on a dip, but within normal parameters, was on a all year high just in January this year.

both Nullsec minerals look rather healthy, with little change in trade volume.

Noxcium: went down, slightly increased volume
Isogen: went down, slight increase in volume
Mexalon: on a all year high, slight increase in volume
Pyerite: went down, currently shows a slight upwards trend, increased Volume
Tritanium: went down, slight increased in Volume

As you see, when you check yourself ingame, the market where Rorqual influence would show is healthy, the market of HS orcas/propoises increased general miningyield is on a downwards trend, but far from what I personaly call a crash.

This nerf won´t impact the market, because it does not adress the source of the problem it wants to adress. Thats what the raw data aviable tells me. So CCP already stated it wants to nerf the rorqual even more after this nerf, and more and more until it mines only as much as a hulk berore they reliaze the Rorq has no signifcant impact on the market?


Not sure where to start with this so how about here.

Your interpretation of the raw data here is misinformed.

Megacyte and Mexallon are production bottlenecks based on the current distribution of Null minerals and what people were mining based on value. What this means is that as the supply of all minerals has risen these have lagged behind somewhat. This means other people are willing to pay more for them to be able to produce stuff with the more abundant minerals they have in large quantities.

The fact that we've seen these values plateau and even start to fall in the last month and change is strong evidence of a general mineral over supply beyond what the economy can absorb. This is also supported by that increase in volume sitting on the market, since that value generally remains fairly stable barring large changes to the game or to mining behavior, such as major wars.

On top of this the main source of ore is in Null, so High Sec is actually somewhat insulated from the glut of minerals, because transporting even compressed high end ores from Null to High Sec is fairly expensive and risky relative to the returns it provides. If you look at the Null markets you'll see minerals like Trit going from slightly above High Sec prices to significantly below them, and even Mexallon and Megacyte aren't showing the kind of large spikes in price that would be characteristic of a sharp rise in demand and a constricted supply.

Lastly, regarding terminology, this is pretty clearly a crash. Trit is down to prices that haven't been seen in 4 years, and Trit tends to be very very price responsive since the entire market volume clears out every few days. Same goes for Pyerite except we last saw these levels almost *5* years ago in 2012. When the price of something drops through 5 years worth of increases in a few months that is a crash.

Lastly, the Rorqual is clearly the source of this issue. The yields on barges and exhumers didn't change. This drop in mineral prices clearly corresponds to the introduction of the new Rorqual and the Excavator drones.

oresome eyes wrote:
saying your not only proves my point. this is like saying im not spy....


Lol

Denial proves exactly nothing. I mean, I could just ignore this and not respond to it, but it's so hilarious I'm doing it for my own amusement. It's been a while since someone seriously accused me of being a CCP dev, and even claiming a ban because you spoke up in this thread is above and beyond the call of trolling. Lol

That just tells me that you don't have any actual facts or solid arguments against the changes so you're just sowing as much chaos and mistrust as you can, either for your own amusement or out of spite. I will thank you for the laugh though, it's been a long week and I needed the amusement Lol
Quin Yi
Trust Doesn't Rust
Sev3rance
#690 - 2017-03-04 04:50:32 UTC
I know we're jack-hammering in this point, but it must be said: A very real alternative to the panic module needing an asteroid locked is:
The panic module, when activated, turns off all warp disrupting mods, your entosis links and a cynosural field gen and further prevents you from activating them.

Alternatively, it could do both that and have a lower cycle time if the rorqual doesn't have a lock on an asteroid belt.

Thank you for your continued effort to make eve the great game it is and will be.
Cade Windstalker
#691 - 2017-03-04 06:00:58 UTC
Quin Yi wrote:
I know we're jack-hammering in this point, but it must be said: A very real alternative to the panic module needing an asteroid locked is:
The panic module, when activated, turns off all warp disrupting mods, your entosis links and a cynosural field gen and further prevents you from activating them.

Alternatively, it could do both that and have a lower cycle time if the rorqual doesn't have a lock on an asteroid belt.

Thank you for your continued effort to make eve the great game it is and will be.


Fozzie already addressed why this is less ideal. They're already seeing people using PANIC as an "oh ****" button for Entosis, applying the same to tackle just lets the Rorqual be used as initial heavy Tackle and then swap out safely with PANIC when seriously threatened.

Also Rorquals as Cynos isn't really an issue, and being able to shut one off on demand would actually be an advantage in some circumstances since anyone can warp to an active Cyno.

I'm really not sure why everyone is freaking out over, of all things, the rock-lock-on thing. The only way for someone to realistically take advantage of this is to be sitting there watching you mine, at which point even in the current system there are ways for them to screw you over and kill you.
Iminent Penance
Your Mom's Boyfriends
#692 - 2017-03-04 07:04:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Iminent Penance
If mining is "too toxic and easy" make guns where you have to aim them in space, not just hit f1.

If mining is "too afk" make combat drones need specific utilities like carrier fighters. All of them.

Kill "afk gameplay" right? /s

To those quoting mineral price trends, dont bother. Nobody from ccp will give a crap and then cade will come say "WATCH MY ECONOMICS: SUPPLY MEANS DEMAND AFFECTS IT" and write 5 paragraphs explaining how pve is bad for the game because it just is. Seriously he wouldn't need to type THAT MUCH if he had a valid point. Most his posts are inarguable jargon that isn't relevant half the time. YET HES ON EVERY PAGE.

HE DOESNT EVEN MINE YET HES HERE RIDING CCP's **** JUST BECAUSE IT HURTS PVE. That is the eve community.


It isn't rocket science, but damn sometimes the community and ...now devs.. sure make it look like it.
Lord Vyper
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#693 - 2017-03-04 10:49:30 UTC
Haha at all you people complaining what if I jump a gate. What if they get me off station? Why Can't I [email protected]#[email protected]%#$%

You die that's what happens. Welcome to EVE where your safety isn't guaranteed <3
Gisiona TrielGisre
Pyromaniacs Anonymous
Brave Collective
#694 - 2017-03-04 11:35:31 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Megacyte and Mexallon are production bottlenecks based on the current distribution of Null minerals and what people were mining based on value. What this means is that as the supply of all minerals has risen these have lagged behind somewhat. This means other people are willing to pay more for them to be able to produce stuff with the more abundant minerals they have in large quantities.


That may explain prices but not trade volumes and they are the major points here. Both Nullsec sourced minerals have not seen a increased trade volume, the highsec sourcable minerals have. this is because you are dead wrong here:

Cade Windstalker wrote:
Lastly, the Rorqual is clearly the source of this issue. The yields on barges and exhumers didn't change. This drop in mineral prices clearly corresponds to the introduction of the new Rorqual and the Excavator drones.



Highsec fleetmining yield has improved with the same expansion that introduced the rorqual. Mining fleets now sit on top of an Asteriod in belt, since the Orca sits there mining with its mining drones and th Barges also now have mostly mining drones out. They have become more viable options to use with the same patch, incase you have forgotten about that, or just didn´t know in the first place.

It is not that easy to differentiate between market influences, but the data suggests that if you want to call it a market crash, it is more likely caused by highsec miners than null entities.
Kaoraku Shayiskhun
The 1st Regiment
Brave Collective
#695 - 2017-03-04 12:28:59 UTC
So couse some big entities can mining in rorqual 23/7 you punish those, who can't? This is the lamest "fix" since I play this game.
GROUND XERO
Kill at Will
Socket Closed.
#696 - 2017-03-04 12:57:40 UTC
So you now warp in a Falcon jam the rouqual and light a cyno and he can´t panic?

NCPL (Necromonger of new Eden) will make EVE great again!

Sir BloodArgon Aulmais
Fortis Fortuna Adiuvatt
#697 - 2017-03-04 15:18:22 UTC
Idk where all the tears are coming from. Since the rorqual got its new roll, and in every patch since, ccp has said

We will continue to make changes to keep prices in check


If your skill-injector-flogged brains can't comprehend that, don't buy a rorqual.
Laendra
Universalis Imperium
The Bastion
#698 - 2017-03-04 16:04:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Laendra
The "PANIC" - entosis issue could more easily be solved by disallowing fitting of both at the same time, and only allowing barges, exhumers and other industrial type ships to gain any effect from the activation of one.
Death Ryder
Angels and Devils
Get Off My Lawn
#699 - 2017-03-04 16:05:00 UTC
Seriously CCP, why do you people listen to Fozzie???

Who exactly is it he works for, even though you pay him it's obvious by the way he's constantly trying to kill the game that he's been working for another mmog for years.

I know you people come up with most of your ideas while sitting together in a very small room smoking what ever crap it is you smoke there, but whos peace pipe is it that fozzie crawls around on his hands and knees smoking to stay working there?
Serenity Hunter
ab18 Corporation
#700 - 2017-03-04 16:50:50 UTC
nice changes, once u working on the range of the Hulk just add a 3 laser pls :P The differences from Macki to Hulk are to small, Hulks a paperbags even on max def. There should be a reward for risking a ship like that for mining, otherwise we all can stick to skiff and macki....2 laser just sux