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Yes, the extra range makes quite a bit of difference. I usually only use the T2 one for affordability reasons, but I die a little bit inside every time one of my corp mates fails to scram someone because he's using an inferior variant.

Ok, I will give up on this. It was partly a nice discussion and some good input but overall it just feels like people want to buff the smallgang warfare without any need for it. I enjoy smallgang/BLOPs a lot more than anything else in EvE but after this patch it seems there will be even less fights to pick from because the standing fleets will either respond with overwhelming numbers or not at all. #rip #smallgang
Time to focus on BLOPs I guess and wait for a time where less people cry about too many things. :)

What is your entire argument here?
Standing fleets will bring more because HICs are broken as ****, easy to use and 1 ship answers to the current meta and they'll feel they'll need more?
But you were saying HICs were balanced?
:thinking:

One ship does not answer to the current meta. That's completely false. You have set up a straw man.

If all I bring is a HIC, the guys with dual propulsion or an oversized afterburner run away laughing at my 2700 m/s overheated, boosted speed (Onyx with C-Type MWD and one Nanofiber). So, I automatically need to bring skirmish boosters and a webbing ship to compete - even with a 37km scram. That assumes I am facing a competent opponent. Against incompetent morons, perhaps I can get away with just a couple of HIC's, but I could use almost any ship to deal with them.

Against the solo-roamers in Battleships and Battlecruisers: I do not rate them as competent opponents. The only thing I am concerned about if I see a solo battleship is whether they are hot drop bait. I don't care how personally skilled they are, or how much bling they have in their ships. They are not competent opponents. Just suicidal. We do not balance the game around solo Battleships and solo Battlecruisers. That would be like balancing the game around suicide ganking.

Please show me where competent kiting gangs are regularly getting destroyed by just HIC's. They are not. I assure you that Exodus and The Culture don't die to just HIC's. It's just one group of risk averse people (Kiting Roamers) complaining about another group of risk averse people (Home Defense fleets). No one in Eve wants to lose ships. That's why longer scram ranges are good. They make it harder to run away from a fight.

I will grant you that HIC's are too good in their current state. They should have a maximum scram range of 27-30km (T2 vs Faction) (without heat - leave heat as it is for WDFG's). The Lachesis and Arazu should have a maximum scram range of 37-40km (depending on warp scrambler meta level and with heat). That leaves a role for HIC's in the small gang meta that makes them a powerful adversary, without stomping all over the Gallente Recon's role. It leaves the Lachesis and Arazu able to more effectively counter the kiting meta of 45km points.

That would encourage roamers to use more Gallente Recons as well, because they would then be powerful enough to considering bringing along on a roam. I do not usually see HIC's brought on roaming gangs, presumably because they are so clumsy and lumbering that they would get caught and die.

Oh look, CCP gives in to crybabies again.

Just for once could you show some backbone.

The reason why people run Dual-Prop or oversized AB is almost entirely due to HICs, and to a lesser extent carriers, which are augmented by HICs. There is a reason why every high-end successful nano group such as Turn Left, Therabois, Method Synergy (Lussy Lous russian dudes) and Micro Gang etc. are posting in this thread. You absolutely have to run Orthrus + Keres, or 100mn AB in the current climate because of HICs. We've been running 100mn AB gangs for the past 2 years and it's getting incredibly stale.

Why do you need a 37km scram vs AB ships anyway? A disruptor does the same thing. The only difference between a Huginn and a HIC, is that a Huginn actually has a fairly reasonable chance of dying if it's caught out of position or too aggressive and also doesn't have a point at the same range too. Lachesis also has similar EHP. Where as a HIC has almost 3x the EHP of most 4-5 slot tanks on Huginn/Lachesis, while being more oppressive and doing more damage than either of them.

The problem with the HIC is that you are combining 3 different roles into 1 ship with battleship EHP. You're combining the Roles of a Sabre, Huginn, Lachesis, giving them better DPS and BS EHP. It's a one stop shop for countering anyone who isn't fit for dealing with HICs. Adding all four of those named ships very often would be better than fighting just a single HIC in a lot of cases for skirmish gangs, because at least they are killable and can be punished if they make an error.



I'm not saying you should balance the game around solo BCs and Battleships, but the problem is that a HIC shuts down all of their utility while also remaining outside heavy neut and grappler range making them able to easily permanently control a BS. With 21km Scrams you at least have to be on the edge of Heavy Neut optimal, and in CR BS gun range. So BS will have more tools to deal with them. They still have more EHP than a battleship so can survive and hold it down long enough to get support, HICs should be support ships, not solo pwn mobiles with BS EHP, Recon Control and HAC DPS.

I know there are many other ships which mean the end for anyone trying to do anything in battleships (Falcon etc.), but those ships have no skirmish control or DPS, and have 1/4th of the EHP of the typical HIC if it fucks up so its way more likely to at least die in a mistake, in a HIC you can be the worst pilot on the planet and still do well, it's the old Svipul.



The Competent kiting gangs don't get destroyed by HICs, because they run Orthrus+Keres or 100mn AB. The ships that they absolutely have to fly if they want to play the game. It's a shame that 80% of the ship pool is obsoleted by them, hence this thread.

Defenders already have jump bridges, cyno beacons, capitals. If you have a stronger fleet than the roamers and they want to escape, then you already have tools at your disposal to cut them off. 37.5km scrams just punish anyone not running the meta.



I think 21km is fine because it's in heavy neut range at least, and leaves some room to play with disruptor 24km (28.8km) vs HIC 21km, where you can keep it tackled but not scrammed, as well as some room to maneuver around it while keeping point on something else. Personally I would rather see it be closer to 15km. I think 27-30km is way too oppressive and will retain the current 100mn ab meta that everyone is sick of.

You mention 45km point (Clearly you mean the Orthrus here). The Orthrus is a broken ship, we know it, everyone knows it, CCP knows it. Lets nerf the Orthrus instead of making the other 80% of roaming ships remain collecting dust in peoples hangers. The Orthrus keeps getting brought up as a reason for HICs to exist, the Orthrus is the only surviving MWD cruiser in the meta BECAUSE OF HICS. Nerf the Orthrus please. Nerf the HIC scram also, so we can have a more dynamic game with more options instead of being forced into 2 gang comps like we are now.

The 21km scram is good for faction. Then the hic has to be within heavy neut optimal and within extreme ranges of grappler. The 37.* scram is just too powerful to such strong tank and strong DPS. Compare the scram range to a mordus ship. The scram is way longer, yet the ship is way more tanky and has a 300-500 dps whitch is pretty much.

Because HICs already have other things they do well, and Gallente EWar's role is long-range point and scram. Something they were being completely eclipsed in by the HIC which offers every advantage over a Recon Cruiser in terms of HP, damage, scram range, and general utility.

Also HICs are absolutely used to point caps and up. Anyone saying that's not possible anymore has been hilariously misinformed.

You're acting like the only place anyone ever tackles a Cap is in the middle of a giant blob. I can assure you this is not the case. Yes, in a big fight a 'dictor is a better bet than a HIC, but that doesn't make HICs useless by a long shot. They got plenty of use before they could scram and will continue to see plenty of use after.

Just because they occasionally get HAW-blapped doesn't change that.

Also I don't have a Garmur, but I appreciate your concern for its hypothetical jam strength