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so this is there real future for new players? gate camp?

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Author
Snuffed Out
#321 - 2017-02-14 15:56:46 UTC
Hakawai wrote:
Find a way to balance the risk and we can talk about making things easy for new players. Right now, it's easy-mode for the gankers, and much harder for the new players than anything the old-timers face regularly.


easy-mode?

i put an expensive faction battleship on a gate in the most violent system in eve, with a twitch stream showing perfect intel of whats on the grid, my death is only a cyno away without any warning at all.

player enter nourv and warps to tama past all the citadels and mobile depots warning about the massive gatecamp ahead, proceeds to jump...

i think the risk is quite obvious here and its far from "easy-mode"



Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Caldari State
#322 - 2017-02-14 15:58:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakawai
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Hakawai wrote:
Find a way to balance the risk and we can talk about making things easy for new players. Right now, it's easy-mode for the gankers, and much harder for the new players than anything the old-timers face regularly.


Its not possible.

There is always a bigger, or more predatory fish, or a fish with more evolutionary advantages compared to your own, or a situation, or a number of them, in this ocean that means the weak, poorly adapted, surprised/unknowing/isolated etc will die first and are at greatest risk.

EVE is funny in that way, and balanced.

When you start, your resources and capacity are low and limited, but so are your costs and investment.
Yes, it is true in EVE, that the more established you get, the more you learn etc, the safer you are and the more options you have.
But the learning curve and nature of risk is such in EVE, that you can never escape the fact that you are still, always, vulnerable, and there is always more to learn, bigger fish, smarter fish, fish with better adaptations, more numbers, or situational advantage like surprise.

This meta and paradigm, remains constant throughout EVE, and throughout the life cycle of any player in EVE.

There is no escaping it. It absolutely applies to everyone, always.

I promise you this.
EVE NEVER gets easier.
No matter how new or how old you are.

I agree it's not possible to balance that risk, but lets try and keep the comparison fair.

It's not the ISK that's at risk that matters, it's grinding time. The time vs risk isn't equal at all.

A lot of (not all) new players risk much more grinding time than an old timer does. It's possible for an old-timer to lose more time, but it's manageable. It's much easier for an established player to follow the "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" rule than it is for a new one.

Of course very expensive ships get lost in major battles, but that's a different kind of risk.


BTW it would be easy for CCP to address the "grinding time vs ship value" imbalance for new players. IMO it would do a lot to mitigate this particular issue.
Goonswarm Federation
#323 - 2017-02-14 16:13:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Yebo Lakatosh
Hakawai wrote:
It's much easier for an established player to follow the "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" rule than it is for a new one.
Dunno what do you mean. I could afford to lose a virtually infinite number of Probes and Rifters, even on my first week. What new people can't afford is not knowing their limitations.

Hakawai wrote:
as far as I know EVE Uni is the only part of EVE that actually helps beginners get started.
There are others. I could vouch for one, but I bet even picking a corp randomly that has "University" in their name is infinitely better for a new player than cashing out plexes and grinding PvE with a blingy battleship. It only gives them more to lose while they figure things out.

Elite F1 pilot since YC119, incarnate of honor, integrity and tidi.

Ivy League
#324 - 2017-02-14 16:14:14 UTC
Hakawai wrote:

For alts of experienced players - that's why I said to send "new-player profiled" ships back the way they came. if they go the wrong way I'd expect instant destruction, new player or not.



you mean like that big warning sign that pops up the first time you try to jump into low-sec? the one that says "warning, if you jump through this gate you will be entering a dangerous area"
That warning that you actually have to click on in order to dismiss and continue your jump?

how much more of a warning sign do you need, than the game itself stopping your jump and giving you a big ol warning sign that you have to dismiss in order to continue?
Caldari State
#325 - 2017-02-14 16:26:33 UTC
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
Hakawai wrote:

For alts of experienced players - that's why I said to send "new-player profiled" ships back the way they came. if they go the wrong way I'd expect instant destruction, new player or not.

you mean like that big warning sign that pops up the first time you try to jump into low-sec? the one that says "warning, if you jump through this gate you will be entering a dangerous area"
That warning that you actually have to click on in order to dismiss and continue your jump?

how much more of a warning sign do you need, than the game itself stopping your jump and giving you a big ol warning sign that you have to dismiss in order to continue?

If you don't know about the dangers of the 0.5 to 0.4 interface, how can you process that information?

I can still remember my first visit to low sec (which didn't lead to me being attacked). I had no idea how Concord affected highsec, and assumed that 0.4 space was about 20% less safe than 0.5 space. I suppose I read the warning, but it would not have affected my plans or actions. I do remember understanding nullsec's dangers better, from reading stories of nullsec wars and battles on the web (and even here).

Of course I could have found out more, but I was already overwhelmed with the amount of information I needed to do basic stuff like use the market, fit a ship, control the GUI, etc.

I could easily have made the same mistake this time too - nothing in the tutorials or even rookie help would have made a difference. But of course I know more about EVE now.
#326 - 2017-02-14 16:33:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Hakawai wrote:
I agree it's not possible to balance that risk, but lets try and keep the comparison fair.

It's not the ISK that's at risk that matters, it's grinding time. The time vs risk isn't equal at all..


1) The time vs risk is balanced by the hundreds/thousands of hours those players have invested in this game, and themselves having once been new too and gone through the same. They are FAR more invested in the game.

2) There are players that gank newbies just for the salt. There certainly rarely is much if any profit in it. So their risk vs time, is poor. They spend time farming salt, rather than isk. Just dont give them any salt, and their effort will have been for naught. Yes, a newb takes a substantial loss (which is their own fault), but the salt-miner earns nothing if you dont cry.

3) Even an established vet, can only fit a certain amount of SP advantage into a small ship that is cheap to suicide with. Certainly that is far more than what the newb can compete with, but its also only a fraction of what the established player actually can field.

4) Yes, the earning curve (and learning curve) is very steep for new players starting from zero. Its a lot of grinding for very little profit.
There are ways around this, if you are creative, dedicated and lucky, you can earn a lot as a newb. Or, like me at my start, you can be extremely careful, learn/read a lot, and mitigate risk whilst you slowly optimize/ increase revenue. Or you can buy PLEX. from CCP, which many do even if they are very old players.

5) As in my post after the one you quoted above, its important to:
A) Remember this is a game. Its not personal.
B) You WILL lose ships, sooner or later.
C) Recognize and internalize that if you take a loss, it is your own fault. Not the opponents. This is difficult.
D) Understand that EVE never gets easier. Even players that have invested thousands of hours in this game, learning it, risking in it and taking inevitable losses that are orders of magnitude above that of a newbs losses, also, proportionately, still, have to deal with exactly the same time vs risk issues as they did as a newb (and as any newb), except exponentially more complicated and expensive.
Caldari State
#327 - 2017-02-14 16:36:46 UTC
Yebo Lakatosh wrote:
Hakawai wrote:
It's much easier for an established player to follow the "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" rule than it is for a new one.
Dunno what do you mean. I could afford to lose a virtually infinite number of Probes and Rifters, even on my first week. What new people can't afford is not knowing their limitations.

Hakawai wrote:
as far as I know EVE Uni is the only part of EVE that actually helps beginners get started.
There are others. I could vouch for one, but I bet even picking a corp randomly that has "University" in their name is infinitely better for a new player than cashing out plexes and grinding PvE with a blingy battleship. It only gives them more to lose while they figure things out.

Your first weeks income level takes you far out of the profile for a normal beginner. Typically they're still on 2 to 2.5 million ISK per hour Venture mining in highsec.

I'd rather not hear about how you made that money.

Just to sy it in advance, so I don't have to answer later: it's very unlikely I'll believe you're a genuinely new player; playing solo (as most do) unsupported by friends or a well-established Corp; didn't get a PLEX worth of cash from a buddy subscription and/or with RL money, and had access to the making the kind of ISK you suggest. I know it's possible but I don't believe the number of solo new players who get started that fast is statistically meaningful.
#328 - 2017-02-14 16:39:03 UTC
av Utama wrote:
upgraded to Omega , was fun to learn exploration , but the future not looking good...

To lose all with no time to react to stupid camp again and again
3 second , that all , you get blown up

You can tell that it's going bad if , 1 sec after jump there is warp disrupt, only 1 sec

I don't like this "pvp" system , this is ugly and bad

Rage quit




Silly noob. Eve is a game that's all about denying the game and weaponizing boredom.
Now don't go getting yourself labeled as "risk averse" or "carebear". Be a good little Eve player and go prove your manhood by joining CODE and firing on unarmed ships.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

#329 - 2017-02-14 16:49:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Hakawai wrote:
Of course I could have found out more, but I was already overwhelmed with the amount of information I needed to do basic stuff like use the market, fit a ship, control the GUI, etc.

I could easily have made the same mistake this time too - nothing in the tutorials or even rookie help would have made a difference. But of course I know more about EVE now.


This is normal.
We all go through this, and honestly, it never ends.

I did HUGE amounts of reading which helped me avoid risk, and yet I still ended up blown up in LS :D
I certainly dont expect all players to do the same, but fortunately there are alternatives:

-Ask others for advice
-Join supportive corp
-Dont attempt anything you dont understand
-Pace yourself
-Go balls to the wall and accept losses as the price of first-hand experience

I have to re-iterate, and I hope this becomes a meme of sorts that proliferates to help newbs (and vets) truly understand what kind of game they are getting into:

-If you lose in EVE, it is ALWAYS your own fault.

This is extremely difficult to swallow and internalize, but its the absolute fundamental truth.
Its as true for the freshest newb as it is for the oldest vet in this game.

Once you understand that, you will have taken the first step in understanding what it takes to win.
#330 - 2017-02-14 17:00:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Hakawai wrote:
I know it's possible but I don't believe the number of solo new players who get started that fast is statistically meaningful.


All of us where new once.

We all had to grind our way through it, by wit, time, luck, smarts etc.

Some activities make more profit than others. Some are riskier or harder, than others.
Some are faster, some take months to pan out. Some take a great deal of knowledge, some take next to none.

This is as true for newbs, as it is for vets.
It never stops.

Everyone's path through EVE is unique and the challenges remain as demanding, proportionately, in perpetuity.

Historically, its hard to argue when it was easiest as a newb. Its a very complicated equation of innumerable circumstances, opportunities and changes. For example, I managed to score ISK off a twitch stream raffle which is no longer allowed. Others won BPO lotteries from CCP. Exploration didnt always exist. Alphas didnt exist. The complexity is incalculable.

Dont be unduly worried about what other players have, and you dont, or comparing yourself to them.
You will only drive yourself crazy and kill your own motivation.

What super-powers have earned over the years, through various changes, is not your problem, and neither are the problems of maintaining their empires. Believe me, its much more complicated for them (and risky) than for a newb in a single mining ship in an HS ore field worried about a gank.

Just focus on what you want, make a plan, and go out and get it.
Goonswarm Federation
#331 - 2017-02-14 17:35:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Yebo Lakatosh
Hakawai wrote:
I'd rather not hear about how you made that money.
Lucky for you, I will only type it. :)

I felt that scavenging for spacejunk would be a fitting job for an alpha F2P bum. Picked a gypsy-associated family name, the face you see, and did read up on how it's done on day 0. On day 1, I realized that scanning battleships is easier and more profitable. A few days later I also discovered the drones that people leave all around...
Has no clue about the isk/hour I made, I did it for fun, and to familiarize with the basic controls, and to chat with (hopefully annoyed) Lords o' da Universes in them huge, shiney ships.

Hakawai wrote:
it's very unlikely I'll believe you're a genuinely new player; playing solo (as most do) unsupported by friends or a well-established Corp; didn't get a PLEX worth of cash from a buddy subscription and/or with RL money, and had access to the making the kind of ISK you suggest.
That is very flattering. Thank you.

I -am- supported by a well established Corp that I looked up a bit later. They support me with knowledge, that I value a lot more than I would value any ISK.

I also got a PLEX from my platonic space-crush. Sitting on it for weeks, as I don't feel I could fully utilize it's benefits at this point. If I'll do well in the future, I might just keep it as a memento. :)

Hakawai wrote:
I know it's possible but I don't believe the number of solo new players who get started that fast is statistically meaningful.
We agree fully on this point. That's why I feel perishing at gatecamps, or even ganked by Code is a better option than watching a rock for 2 to 2.5 million ISK per hour in a Venture. Anything that might 'wake up' a new player who doesn't read or socialize sounds cool to me.

I feel we alphas are lucky that we don't get access to any bigger mining ships.

Elite F1 pilot since YC119, incarnate of honor, integrity and tidi.

#332 - 2017-02-14 17:42:54 UTC
Yebo Lakatosh wrote:
I felt that scavenging for spacejunk would be a fitting job for an alpha F2P bum. Picked a gypsy-associated family name, the face you see, and did read up on how it's done on day 0. On day 1, I realized that scanning battleships is easier and more profitable. A few days later I also discovered the drones that people leave all around..


I dont believe a word of this being your first toon in EVE.
Ivy League
#333 - 2017-02-14 17:53:35 UTC
Hakawai wrote:
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
Hakawai wrote:

For alts of experienced players - that's why I said to send "new-player profiled" ships back the way they came. if they go the wrong way I'd expect instant destruction, new player or not.

you mean like that big warning sign that pops up the first time you try to jump into low-sec? the one that says "warning, if you jump through this gate you will be entering a dangerous area"
That warning that you actually have to click on in order to dismiss and continue your jump?

how much more of a warning sign do you need, than the game itself stopping your jump and giving you a big ol warning sign that you have to dismiss in order to continue?

If you don't know about the dangers of the 0.5 to 0.4 interface, how can you process that information?

I can still remember my first visit to low sec (which didn't lead to me being attacked). I had no idea how Concord affected highsec, and assumed that 0.4 space was about 20% less safe than 0.5 space. I suppose I read the warning, but it would not have affected my plans or actions. I do remember understanding nullsec's dangers better, from reading stories of nullsec wars and battles on the web (and even here).

Of course I could have found out more, but I was already overwhelmed with the amount of information I needed to do basic stuff like use the market, fit a ship, control the GUI, etc.

I could easily have made the same mistake this time too - nothing in the tutorials or even rookie help would have made a difference. But of course I know more about EVE now.


So what your saying is that you saw the warning, you knew it was more dangerous, you ignored those warnings, and took the risk regardless... and then... got surprised when your choices had consequences? well best way to learn about the dangers of low-sec is to get a crash course in it, most people get that lesson at one point or another, and that lesson has always worked perfectly fine.

some people take that loss and choose to stay in high-sec, some people make the jump and head to null, some people want to BE that guy, and move into low... what would you suggest that is a better way to teach of the dangers that are out there than letting people choose for themselves and experience it?

they give you the warning, you made the choice to ignore it. its been a while since i've seen it, but if i remember correctly I think the warning even explicitly tells you that concord will not respond in low-sec. so if you are claiming ignorance of that, then its an ignorance of your own making by wilfully ignoring the warnings that where given. if you would ignore those warnings, then what makes you think putting more warning in place wouldn't also get ignored?
Amarr Empire
#334 - 2017-02-14 17:57:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde
Hakawai wrote:
.
... so the message is something like 'buy a PLEX or you'll just have to grind for weeks


This is why the griefing and scamming is coddled by CCP


Quinn Hatfield wrote:
Why wouldn't you voluntarily communicate with them? They're people, not monsters. and often willing to share their knowledge.


Alas, not everyone has the mentality of a subservient slave-boy, who can't get enough of hazing rites to become part of an online subgroup that can only have fun in a game if the other people they play with (or in their minds, against), become frustrated and angry because the aforementioned subgroup takes advantage of circonvoluted mechanics to harvest Schadenfreude.


Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Furthermore, it cannot be overstated how important it is to remember this is a GAME.

You musnt take a loss as a personal issue.

Yes, it hurts like hell, but in 99.9%% of losses, its YOUR OWN FAULT.


The only fault is logging into a game that coddles online sociopathy, because it sells PLEX and multiple accounts.


Salvos Rhoska wrote:

2) There are players that gank newbies just for the salt. There certainly rarely is much if any profit in it. So their risk vs time, is poor. They spend time farming salt, rather than isk. Just dont give them any salt, and their effort will have been for naught. Yes, a newb takes a substantial loss (which is their own fault), but the salt-miner earns nothing if you dont cry.


Even without any reaction from the griefee's, the salt-miner gets high on the knowledge he made some random joe lose hours of grind for no reason at all, other than the griefer wanting to feel good about being an online nuisance and making some complete stranger rage (even if said rage is not expressed ingame)

"You would not be the first "ganker aligned" player to be found to having some issues. Here's a dark secret: there are some in AG who, because of battling gankers, have managed to get to know a few of them, found they had issues, and helped them" HW

Goonswarm Federation
#335 - 2017-02-14 17:59:10 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I dont believe a word of this being your first toon in EVE.
Strange, I felt a lot more flattered when miss Hakawai wrote the same. Maybe I should blame the visage. But thank you anyways.

Still, one more goal achieved. Them Lords o' da Universes suspecting I'm secretly one of them. The kids down on 'Matar will never believe me.

Guess I should plea decades of gaming experience, and leading a pirate faction in certain other space-game for a few years.

Elite F1 pilot since YC119, incarnate of honor, integrity and tidi.

Goonswarm Federation
#336 - 2017-02-14 18:15:28 UTC
Hakawai wrote:
@ Bjorn Tyrson

It doesn't matter that new players aren't the target, nor that it's not really practical to separate targets from innocent bystanders. And of course most old timers have been through this kind of thing, and found a way to keep playing.

The issues are their perception of the situation, and to some extent the patience of new players in the current gaming climate.

A 0.5-0.4 gate camp is literally a group of (relative) old timers making it harder for new players to do what looks to them like basic stuff. What does it matter to a victim that they're just "collateral damage"? Similarly, the explanation that this is just a normal part of the game isn't comforting, because it suggests they will run into similar issues over and over again.

I think the same is true for the kind of experience you described ("lost everything and come back anyway"). Is that the right message for experienced players to share with new ones? New players find out quickly enough that if they don't like mining they'll have to break the "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" rule ...

... so the message is something like 'buy a PLEX or you'll just have to grind for weeks, then you can enter a "learn by being ganked" phase, then something mysterious (I've never seen it explained anywhere) might happen to get you set up for the "real game"'.

Since you're a member of EVE Uni this doesn't apply fully to you of course. But as far as I know EVE Uni is the only part of EVE that actually helps beginners get started (regrettably I'll never find out through experience, because your conditions for entry aren't acceptable to me).

That in turn gets us back to the nature of the environment for EVE beginners. In a perfect world, perhaps three months with EVE Uni should be part of the tutorial, But is that likely to be an attractive characteristic to a modern gamer? Or should everyone involved be thinking about the things (like 0.5 to 0.4 gate camps) that are highly likely to discourage new players from continuing?

I can see gate camps between low sec and null making gaming sense. And of course I can see that there have to be 0.5-0.4 gate camps with today's EVE (the "shape" of the game makes them natural). Which means that, like the OP, I think they represent something bad about the game itself. Something that could be easily mitigated (not necessarily by changing the system topology) if CCP really wanted to make the game a bit more new-player friendly.

And I'm still not impressed that the actual gate campers are too lazy to scan ships, pick the obvious beginners, and tell them to go back the way they came. I know it won't really happen, but it wouldn't hurt the old timers, especially during newbie-rich periods, to make a small effort to make the playing environment a bit more forgiving for newbies.


First, no they aren't always relative "old timers". My first gate camp were guys not too much older than me (at that time) for the most part. But there were lots of them and just one of me. Second even old timers die at gate camps. And a gate camp is not targeting anyone…however you most certainly are. And making changes that target players never, ever works out in a game like EVE.

And finally, the evidence shows that this kind of interaction is GOOD for retention. Not bad.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

#337 - 2017-02-14 18:18:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Keno Skir
Hakawai wrote:
I don't use youtube at all.


Hakawai wrote:
@scipio

Thanks for the link, but I'm not going to watch a video to get this information. It takes too long, and I'm still uncertain the claims will actually be supported by the video or the original data and analysis.

I might have done so if the claims had been presented accurately and politely, but as with each other time I've asked about this particular claim, I've had to put up with pointless shouting and rudeness before we get anywhere. Of course this does me no harm - but it's the hallmark of someone trying to sell a false message, and "shouting down" any opposition.

My starting point now has to be the original report including the actual measurements and something clearly explaining how the conclusion "being ganked makes new players stay" was drawn.

It's just too bad if this means we're at the end of the line. But FWIW I doubt I'm the only one who doesn't find "shouting and insults" weakens a poster's credibility.

Of course if I get the right links and the facts support the claims I suppose I'll have to "eat some humble pie" :)


You had Humble Pie on the table in front of you before. Instead of eating it you refused on the basis you "don't use Humble Pie at all".

If you refuse to even look at information which might prove the opposing point of course you remain uneducated and incorrect. Tell us again about the hallmarks of a false message? Pirate
Goonswarm Federation
#338 - 2017-02-14 18:22:32 UTC
Hakawai wrote:


Find a way to balance the risk and we can talk about making things easy for new players. Right now, it's easy-mode for the gankers, and much harder for the new players than anything the old-timers face regularly.


Okay serious question how? You have 5 guys that want to set up a gate camp in a system. So to “balance the risk vs. reward” we do…what? Only let one guy engage 1 person coming through? How? Which one?

You do realize that EVE is an open classless game where people can pretty much do what they want, right? Your suggestion above would literally stop that. Now 4 out of our 5 gate campers can’t do what they want. And for what? Some sort of fairness? What if none of the ships in the camp would be a fair match for the OP in his heron. Most of the ships there can tank the gate guns for at least some period of time. Most will have tackle. And all will put out plenty of DPS. So should the OPs ship be miraculously transformed?

Do you have any idea of what you are saying in relation to the game?

Oh, and how exactly are any suggestions your are making not going to be abused by older more experienced players?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Gallente Federation
#339 - 2017-02-14 18:22:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Quinn Hatfield
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:
Quinn Hatfield wrote:
Why wouldn't you voluntarily communicate with them? They're people, not monsters. and often willing to share their knowledge.


Alas, not everyone has the mentality of a subservient slave-boy, who can't get enough of hazing rites to become part of an online subgroup that can only have fun in a game if the other people they play with (or in their minds, against), become frustrated and angry because the aforementioned subgroup takes advantage of circonvoluted mechanics to harvest Schadenfreude.
Alas, not everyone has the ability to socialise with others or to learn from their mistakes, this particular subgroup of gamers would be much better off playing either single player games where there is no risk of such interference, or multiplayer games where things like ganking and scamming are verboten in order to pander to the delicate sensibilities of their customers.

BTW the mechanics aren't overly convoluted, nor is beating an opponent by using your knowledge of the rules of the game schadenfreude.


Quote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Furthermore, it cannot be overstated how important it is to remember this is a GAME.

You musnt take a loss as a personal issue.

Yes, it hurts like hell, but in 99.9%% of losses, its YOUR OWN FAULT.


The only fault is logging into a game that coddles online sociopathy, because it sells PLEX and multiple accounts.
You place much too much faith in your assumption that CCP allows ganking and scamming in order to sell PLEX and alt accounts. CCP allows these actions because that's part of the original design brief of the game; that brief being to create a game that is harsh, unforgiving and challenging. The original CCP team were "refugees" from the trammelisation of Ultima Online, that original dev team being some of the scammers and gankers that the Trammel expansion drove out of UO.

I don't burn bridges, I merely steal a bolt a day.

#340 - 2017-02-14 18:32:39 UTC
Yebo Lakatosh wrote:
[Snip.


I reviewed your post history.
I dont buy this is your first EVE toon.

Your Jamaican rude boy role-play is, however, amusing.

GF.
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