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[December] Defender Missiles

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Lugh Crow-Slave
#181 - 2016-12-11 01:40:58 UTC
Gizzie Haslack wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Chenguang Hucel-Ge wrote:
I'm not into PvP that much, but hey, defenders sound way too OP. Still, If you insist on adding one, please do it, but not without a tool to counter this one.

Behold, duds.

We have Bomb Launcher and then we add another launcher, let's call it "Bar I".
Same fitting requirements of Bomb Launcher, roughly on par everything else.
The difference is charge used. It's a dud, let's call it "Misericorde I". Cheaper than carbon, does no damage at all.
The trick though, these are launched 3 per cycle, allowing for mild space saturation, thus providing some damage loss mitigation at cost of extra man on the field.



nope the counter is bluff runs/more bombs per run 7 is no longer the holy number



Launching duds for the real bombs to hide amongst is a reasonable strategy. If the defenders chase a dud then that is handy stuff.



sure if you can only launch one at a time and they still cost 75% of a standard bomb

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Gizzie Haslack
4249003
#182 - 2016-12-11 12:40:12 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Gizzie Haslack wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Chenguang Hucel-Ge wrote:
I'm not into PvP that much, but hey, defenders sound way too OP. Still, If you insist on adding one, please do it, but not without a tool to counter this one.

Behold, duds.

We have Bomb Launcher and then we add another launcher, let's call it "Bar I".
Same fitting requirements of Bomb Launcher, roughly on par everything else.
The difference is charge used. It's a dud, let's call it "Misericorde I". Cheaper than carbon, does no damage at all.
The trick though, these are launched 3 per cycle, allowing for mild space saturation, thus providing some damage loss mitigation at cost of extra man on the field.



nope the counter is bluff runs/more bombs per run 7 is no longer the holy number



Launching duds for the real bombs to hide amongst is a reasonable strategy. If the defenders chase a dud then that is handy stuff.



sure if you can only launch one at a time and they still cost 75% of a standard bomb



75% would be a touch excessive for a dud, but the size of the actual 'unit' dropped has to be the same as a bomb or people ( computers ) will spot it and ignore it.
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#183 - 2016-12-12 13:22:13 UTC
Removed some Off Topic post.

ISD Max Trix

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to EVE mails about forum moderation.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#184 - 2016-12-12 15:35:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
Samsara Toldya wrote:
So... the "random" part.

Let's say there is a bombing wing with 11 bombers while there are 10 destroyers with d.i.c.k.s. cycling on grid.

Bomber 1 decloakes and launch a bomb.

10 d.i.c.k.s. get triggert by nearby bomb and shoot down the single bomb, causing 120 seconds cooldown on every d.i.c.k.

Remaining 10 bombers decloak and launch bombs.

Very random.

Or do all d.i.c.k.s. on grid communicate with each other and only a single defender missile is fired when there is only one bomb nearby?


The obvious counter to your suggested tactic is to not have every swinging D.I.C.K. blow their load at once. (See what I did there?)

In a large fleet fight where you are most likely to see a bombing run, no one really worries about a lone bomber. One will just get ignored because it will be totally ineffective. Its only when we start seeing full waves that people start speaking up about it on comms.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Lugburz
Warcrows
THE OLD SCHOOL
#185 - 2016-12-12 16:39:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugburz
James Zimmer wrote:
A few thoughts:

1. Bombs are generally launched in waves, and defenders will now randomly go after bombs. One bomb wave, and you may destroy every bomb, the next wave, only a single bomb (at least that's how I understand the mechanics as you describe them). That lack of consistency would be frustrating, especially in a game that is significantly less random than other MMOs.

2. Bombers are in a pretty good place right now. IMO they don't need this nerf.

3. Destroyers are the meta right now, they don't need the help.

4. Command destroyers are already unique and strong. Adding a third fleet assistance role to command destroyers on top of jumping and command bursts would make them too good IMO, though I do appreciate the effort to reward people who bring combined fleets.



Absolutely, this would make bomb runs just pointless, its already hard to hit a gang thats moving, in general the only successful bomb runs are operated by pilots who have some sort of clue as to what theyre doing - and believe me its not as simple as it looks.

Still if you were to perhaps and a destroyer bomber that could fit two launchers :3
Cholly Chi
Acme Entropy
#186 - 2016-12-12 19:58:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Cholly Chi
I know that because of Eve physics, space is like pudding, but bombing and defense against such could be a lot more fun if the bomb's rate of travel was informed by the velocity the bomber was moving at when they were launched. You'd have to add some kind of velocity-informed range marker on the tactical to let the bomber know roughly when to drop them, but imagine the potential havoc and tactical implications:)

PS. if this idea is lunatic, please be kind - it was posted in the spirit of good fun.

CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Space Friends,

Bomb Changes
Bombs now have a Minimum Velocity of 1m/s that you must be traveling at before you can launch. This is to fix some issues that can happen when your velocity is 0, causing the bomb not to move and just explode on you.

Cheers,
CCP Larrikin and Team Phenomenon
Gizzie Haslack
4249003
#187 - 2016-12-13 08:00:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizzie Haslack
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Space Friends,

Bomb Changes
Bombs now have a Minimum Velocity of 1m/s that you must be traveling at before you can launch. This is to fix some issues that can happen when your velocity is 0, causing the bomb not to move and just explode on you.

Cheers,
CCP Larrikin and Team Phenomenon

Cholly Chi wrote:
I know that because of Eve physics, space is like pudding, but bombing and defense against such could be a lot more fun if the bomb's rate of travel was informed by the velocity the bomber was moving at when they were launched. You'd have to add some kind of velocity-informed range marker on the tactical to let the bomber know roughly when to drop them, but imagine the potential havoc and tactical implications:)

PS. if this idea is lunatic, please be kind - it was posted in the spirit of good fun.



Yes, momentum should be included. When 29km becomes 35km, because you have added a bit of extra speed, then that really does take 'Bombing' to a fun level. You'll need talent to do it then, not just a Cloak.
Nalia White
Tencus
#188 - 2016-12-13 12:23:56 UTC
you guys all sound like every ship will have at least one defender missile launcher...

bombing fleets are rare as it is, so this module will never be used anyway, so why freak out?

Syndicate - K5-JRD

Home to few, graveyard for many

My biggest achievement
Gizzie Haslack
4249003
#189 - 2016-12-13 12:38:04 UTC
Nalia White wrote:
you guys all sound like every ship will have at least one defender missile launcher...

bombing fleets are rare as it is, so this module will never be used anyway, so why freak out?



Every saturday night Bomber's Bar flies out. Sometimes it's Torps, sometimes it's Bombs. And now they use Wormholes as well as BLOPS, so you won't see them coming unless you've got a couple of Suicide Bombers inside the BB Fleet itself.

That alone is why many head down the Pub on a saturday night. You stand a better chance of moving 'yo PLEX' ( I think I pronounced that correctly ) during the week :D


Cloakies are fun. I'd hate to see it lost because of NERF'ing and people not having pockets deep enough to fly them.


The Romulans had the right idea *nods*.
SoulMIner
Tea Tactics
#190 - 2016-12-13 12:47:10 UTC  |  Edited by: SoulMIner
2004 Player here.

I have to agree this Nerf was not warranted.

Give the Destroyer the bonus, do not take anything away from the bomber.... 0m/s

My old 2 cents.

Edit: 10 pages of negative reply's day one of post, is a move in the wrong direction.
Talmssar
Hiidenkilta
#191 - 2016-12-13 13:03:48 UTC
SoulMIner wrote:
2004 Player here.

I have to agree this Nerf was not warranted.

Give the Destroyer the bonus, do not take anything away from the bomber.... 0m/s

My old 2 cents.

Edit: 10 pages of negative reply's day one of post, is a move in the wrong direction.


Player before release so since 2003 and I did quit in 2008. Checked out 2012 and now again due "free play" campaing. It is hilariuos that I end up reading this that it has been under construction like forever :D - I mean defender missile overhaul. Just hapened to be so that I ended up reading stuff which Caldaris fear most - anti missile stuff :/ Maybe I just wait few years and next news is I see CCP is shutting down servers.

TBH compared to other games is timesink vs fun. You should do 1 thing and gain 10 things not so that you have to do 10 things to gain 1 amount of fun... Change this and you may rise in numbers once again.
Zockhandra
Canadian Bacon.
Honorable Third Party
#192 - 2016-12-13 13:08:37 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Space Friends,

Coming with the December release, we're going to be releasing a feature we talked about at EVE Vegas 2016.


Defender Missile Skill
The skill, Defender Missiles, will no longer require Missile Launcher Operation. All alpha characters will be able to train this to Level 1. The skill will provide a 10% per level bonus to Defender Missile velocity. No other skills will effect Defender Missiles.


Defender Missiles
Defender Missiles will no longer shoot down missiles aimed at you. Instead they will launch at a random bomb (non-structure) within its flight range. A single defender missile will kill any bomb. These defender missiles can only be loaded into a new defender launcher (described below)
The Defender Missile I has a base range of 30km (45km at max skills), and a flight time of 3 seconds.
During the December patch downtime, all existing defender missiles (and their blueprints) will become the new Defender Missile I


Defender Launchers
The Defender Launcher I can only load Defender Missiles. It may only be fit to Destroyer class vessels (Destroyers, Interdictors, Command Destroyers and Tactical Destroyers). Once activated, it will scan local space for any bombs,and if it finds one within range, launch a defender missile to intercept it. If it doesn't find any bombs within range, it will still cycle.
The Defender Launcher I has a 120 second reactivation timer. It doesn't require a launcher hardpoint, and has low fitting requirements (10 cpu, 2 powergrid), but uses some capacitor (50gj) to activate. You can only fit one defender launcher.


Command Destroyers
Command Destroyers receive at 50% role bonus to decreasing the reactivation timer on Defender Launchers.


Bomb Changes
Bombs now have a Minimum Velocity of 1m/s that you must be traveling at before you can launch. This is to fix some issues that can happen when your velocity is 0, causing the bomb not to move and just explode on you.


You can checkout these changes (and more) on Sisi soon. We appreciate any feedback you have!

Cheers,
CCP Larrikin and Team Phenomenon





Sounds like we need a bomb that splits into more bombs but does less damage. If you ever want to see another bombing fleet....like ever again.

Once again you've added a new mechanic to counter/help counter an allready tough to pull off (and lets be honest an ineffective way of dealing with most contemporary fleets). I bet if you compare how many actual bombing doctrines get used each year to how many are successful BEFORE this patch comes in, you'll see that almost noone uses them anyway?

So, your providing a counter-play, for a mechanics which is currently in a super-bad place because its SO specific, and its hard to pull off..... So ultimately your addition means nothing because....Who uses bombs anyway?

Shield are red, Armor is too, i slapped my heavy neut, all over you. Fingers crossed, broken shattered and burned, across from the bubble and into your hull.
Jakara Dakara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#193 - 2016-12-13 13:26:16 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Space Friends,
Command Destroyers
Command Destroyers receive at 50% role bonus to decreasing the reactivation timer on Defender Launchers.



Any thoughts on perhaps making the bonus for Assault Frigates? As stated earlier in this thread command dessies have a niche roll atm where as Assault Frigates at the moment are completely outclassed by T3D's and it will give them more of a roll & usage.
Davina Sienar
The Misinterpretation of Silence
#194 - 2016-12-13 13:51:39 UTC
I just want my CruiseMissiles back on my Manticore.......

Make a HeavyBomber f.e..... use Tier 3 BC or so... make them use Torps and Bombs

All that shortrage stuff for a paper armor BomberFrig....

Cant realy use in lowsec anyways anymore and now nerf again


blah
Ms Michigan
Aviation Professionals for EVE
#195 - 2016-12-13 14:09:59 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
From a game balancing perspective this makes absolutely no sense unless you plan to roll back the bomber nerfs from 2013.
Bombers with bomb launchers are used rarely in any large engagement now-a-days due to the distributed multi-grid fights across several systems making the logistics and strategy of a bomber fleet quite complicated.

But now you wish to take the remaining and small usability of bombers and throw that completely out by giving an I-WIN button to counter bombs. Where is the logic in this? Usually these balance posts are preluded by motivation for a particular nerf or boost. I.e. "We will that bombers in general are too powerful in the current game play". But there's no such explanation given here - possibly hinting that you don't have a legitimate motivation.

This change will lead to simply extinguishing an interesting and dynamic combat mechanic in EVE.


Quoted for truth.

If you do this, roll back the changes from 2013. Then we can call this balanced.
Kruselloyne
Spitfire Logistics
#196 - 2016-12-13 14:41:01 UTC
SoulMIner wrote:
2004 Player here.

I have to agree this Nerf was not warranted.

Give the Destroyer the bonus, do not take anything away from the bomber.... 0m/s

My old 2 cents.

Edit: 10 pages of negative reply's day one of post, is a move in the wrong direction.



Like 10 people in those 10 pages, but who's counting?

People complain about every change CCP makes because it's not fixing THEIR pet issue.
Lasisha Mishi
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#197 - 2016-12-13 14:41:30 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:


Bomb Changes
Bombs now have a Minimum Velocity of 1m/s that you must be traveling at before you can launch. This is to fix some issues that can happen when your velocity is 0, causing the bomb not to move and just explode on you.



......that was a thing?

oh dear god
Sunstar Jonni
Leviathan Rising
Fortis Et Certus
#198 - 2016-12-13 14:54:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Sunstar Jonni
With bombing runs requiring extreme planning and luck and skill to execute now you're making it even harder to use against a class of ships which already have so many options to counter (warp off kill bombers) now bombing runs were useless against frigates from what I have seen. So this really only helps battlecruiser and battleship roams and who does those oh yea nobody so unless you know somebody is going after a tower, poco, citadel bombing runs are just not really used or fail out right the meta for blops is torps or more ships. just not seeing the utility or use here. Perhaps you're thinking of lifting the ban on bombs in hi sec so CODE can use them to hit retrievers? With no accompanying buff to boms just doesn't make sense to me.
Olmeca Gold
The Free Folk
#199 - 2016-12-13 15:05:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Olmeca Gold
Kruselloyne wrote:
SoulMIner wrote:


Edit: 10 pages of negative reply's day one of post, is a move in the wrong direction.


Like 10 people in those 10 pages, but who's counting?

People complain about every change CCP makes because it's not fixing THEIR pet issue.


Yeah people complain but its all about the negative/positive ratio and degree of the feedback. If you are gonna stop hearing negative feedback because "people always complain" then what is the purpose of a request of feedback in the first place right?

Personally I have never seen a change with this much overwhelmingly uniform negative feedback being rushed into the implementation without giving it a second thought. The uniformity of negative feedback for this one is on a par with the cancelled "cloakies decloak each other when cloaked" change.

Two reasons for this I think is that firstly CCP is rightly enthusiastic about giving alphas meaningful play (but they are doing it wrong), and secondly there is not really a lot of people in CSM who represents bombing fleets' interests, at least to the degree of being able to make their voice heard.

At this point what I expect is gonna happen is that as bombing FCs we will keep trying good bombing runs (but probably way less often), and we will succeed at times (but at a much lower level than a balanced meta deserves), and then some bombing illiterate CSM member will come and say "oh you can still bomb we told you defenders were a balanced change" and get his upvotes. Meanwhile you will see a good bombing run perhaps once in four months instead of one (which is already a low rate than a balanced meta deserves), and bombing will slowly and surely sink down to deep frozen depths of meta.

If nothing else changes.

PS: I hope you get that what I'm writing here are observations and expectations, not complaints.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.
Gizzie Haslack
4249003
#200 - 2016-12-13 16:07:49 UTC
Sunstar Jonni wrote:
With bombing runs requiring extreme planning and luck and skill to execute now you're making it even harder to use against a class of ships which already have so many options to counter (warp off kill bombers) now bombing runs were useless against frigates from what I have seen. So this really only helps battlecruiser and battleship roams and who does those oh yea nobody so unless you know somebody is going after a tower, poco, citadel bombing runs are just not really used or fail out right the meta for blops is torps or more ships. just not seeing the utility or use here. Perhaps you're thinking of lifting the ban on bombs in hi sec so CODE can use them to hit retrievers? With no accompanying buff to boms just doesn't make sense to me.



Dropping a bomb can pop flimsier frigates, and is great for clearing out drones. Drop 3 bombs in the same patch and you're gonna make a mess if you take people by surprise ( I'm ignoring focused bombs here ).

It's not easy, but it is do-able.


I don't expect easy when I can blap all of your drones in one move, but I do expect do-able.

I also expect you to have a fair chance to dodge my move, or I'm gonna get bored.