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Wardec Defender Abilities

Author
Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
#1 - 2016-11-29 09:17:52 UTC
Defense players should be able to force the attackers out of station.

The attackers already turned off CONCORD for pocket money, and then they just dock forever.

To counter balance the CONCORD light switch, defenders should be able to eject attackers from stations.

At the minimum this should be looked at in the same light of AFK cloakers.


Now with 100% less Troll.

Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#2 - 2016-11-29 09:28:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Can attackers force defenders out of station?

The counter balance to the arbitrary nature of declaring war already exists. Defenders can escape from the war at any point, at no cost at all.
Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
#3 - 2016-11-29 09:45:07 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Can attackers force defenders out of station?

The counter balance to the arbitrary nature of declaring war already exists. Defenders can escape from the war at any point, at no cost at all.



Incentives for defending corporations to fight back,like my proposal would reduce the Corp swapping behavior. You and I agree Corp swapping is an issue and carrots work better than sicks in video games.

Now with 100% less Troll.

Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#4 - 2016-11-29 09:49:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Tom Gerard wrote:
You and I agree Corp swapping is an issue and carrots work better than sicks in video games.

Yes carrots work better than sticks. I totally agree with that.

I just can't see the logic here that being able to force attackers out of stations will be much of a carrot. Isolated wardeccing character will just log off; and prepared wardec groups will be prepared for the case that they can be forcibly undocked.

Either way, I don't see that the defenders get much more than either no content or a bloody nose.

Those defenders that can defend themselves aren't really affected by wardecs now and those that can't wont be incentivised to fight without the skills or experience to do so.
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
#5 - 2016-11-29 11:09:42 UTC
Tom Gerard wrote:
At the minimum this should be looked at in the same light of AFK cloakers.




So.... laughed at and then otherwise ignored until the next thread like this comes along?

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
#6 - 2016-11-29 11:25:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tom Gerard
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Tom Gerard wrote:
You and I agree Corp swapping is an issue and carrots work better than sicks in video games.

Yes carrots work better than sticks. I totally agree with that.

I just can't see the logic here that being able to force attackers out of stations will be much of a carrot. Isolated wardeccing character will just log off; and prepared wardec groups will be prepared for the case that they can be forcibly undocked.

Either way, I don't see that the defenders get much more than either no content or a bloody nose.

Those defenders that can defend themselves aren't really affected by wardecs now and those that can't wont be incentivised to fight without the skills or experience to do so.



The incentive should be unique to the defender and furthermore unique to the war declaration system, It should not be a "I W.I.N. button" but it should provide entertaining gameplay.

Other possibilities would include:
Attacking Corporation may not operate warp drives while under weapon's timers.
Defending Corporation given a list of attackers, their online status, and their real-time location.
Defending Corporation able to declare a "Home" system which will be defended by local militia.
Attacking Corporation members show up as warpable in the overview

Any of these would provide a unique "Carrot" to stick around and fight back.

Now with 100% less Troll.

Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#7 - 2016-11-29 11:32:47 UTC
Tom Gerard wrote:

Other possibilities would include:
Attacking Corporation may not operate warp drives while under weapon's timers.
Defending Corporation given a list of attackers, their online status, and their real-time location.
Defending Corporation able to declare a "Home" system which will be defended by local militia.
Attacking Corporation members show up as warpable beacons in the solar system.

Any of these would provide a unique "Carrot" to stick around and fight back.

I can see what you are trying to do and this is just my opinion, which is no better or worse than anyone else's, so take these replies with a grain of salt.

The issue I see with these is that none of them are balanced. They provide carrots to one side only by hitting the other side with a stick.

In my view, the mechanics should get out of the way, not become more important. They should be there just enough to allow conflict, but then how that proceeds should be up to the players.

These suggestions just seem counter to that, but my 0.02 has no more value then anyone else's.
Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
#8 - 2016-11-29 11:39:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tom Gerard
Scipio Artelius wrote:
stuff


Currently the logical solution is to corp-swap, this bloats corp history and doesn't provide gameplay for anyone.

Now with 100% less Troll.

Black Pedro
Mine.
#9 - 2016-11-29 11:52:59 UTC
Tom Gerard wrote:
Defense players should be able to force the attackers out of station.

The attackers already turned off CONCORD for pocket money, and then they just dock forever.

To counter balance the CONCORD light switch, defenders should be able to eject attackers from stations.

At the minimum this should be looked at in the same light of AFK cloakers.
Should they also be able to force them to login? Or what about if they are just in an empty pod, should they be able to force them into a specific ship of the defender's choice?

I always find this hullabaloo about wardeccers docking or staying docked hilarious. Players, everywhere in Eve won't show up to a fight they think there is no chance of winning. It is common practice for fleets to dock up, or log off, or stay in a POS, or even self-destruct if they think they other side completely outclasses them. That can be because they are risk-averse cowards, or could be because they have made the correct assessment that they have no chance to win, but regardless of the reasons, such tactics are completely normal and accepted behaviour everywhere in this game - except in highsec for some reason where it evokes tear-filled threads like this one.

If you want a fight, bait them like you have to do everywhere else. You don't just roll up with some overwhelming fleet and expect them to undock into an honourable destruction. If you have camped them into a station, well then take solace in the fact that your dominance has been established and thus your honour restored.


Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#10 - 2016-11-29 12:07:34 UTC
Bahaha, cool so if you want to take anything that belongs to me you
can't dock
Can't warp with a weapons timer

I get ,
a local NPC militia to defend me
The watchlist back
real-time locates
And your a warpable.

I'm now functionally Immortal.
Cheers Tom
Lasisha Mishi
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#11 - 2016-11-29 14:45:04 UTC
Tom Gerard wrote:



The incentive should be unique to the defender and furthermore unique to the war declaration system, It should not be a "I W.I.N. button" but it should provide entertaining gameplay.

Other possibilities would include:
Attacking Corporation may not operate warp drives while under weapon's timers.
Defending Corporation given a list of attackers, their online status, and their real-time location.
Defending Corporation able to declare a "Home" system which will be defended by local militia.
Attacking Corporation members show up as warpable in the overview

Any of these would provide a unique "Carrot" to stick around and fight back.

.......WHY ARE YOU NOT VOTABLE FOR IN THE CSM

*spams the vote for button anyway*
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
#12 - 2016-11-29 14:54:55 UTC
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
Tom Gerard wrote:



The incentive should be unique to the defender and furthermore unique to the war declaration system, It should not be a "I W.I.N. button" but it should provide entertaining gameplay.

Other possibilities would include:
Attacking Corporation may not operate warp drives while under weapon's timers.
Defending Corporation given a list of attackers, their online status, and their real-time location.
Defending Corporation able to declare a "Home" system which will be defended by local militia.
Attacking Corporation members show up as warpable in the overview

Any of these would provide a unique "Carrot" to stick around and fight back.

.......WHY ARE YOU NOT VOTABLE FOR IN THE CSM

*spams the vote for button anyway*


Because anyone that understands the game also understands that all the ideas listed here are terrible. They assume the defending corp is at an inherent disadvantage. They are not.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
#13 - 2016-11-29 14:56:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Double post apparently.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Revis Owen
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#14 - 2016-11-29 14:56:40 UTC
A corp wardecs you, then confines itself to stations. Sounds like your enemy is wasting their money. What's the problem with that?

Agent of the New Order http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html If you do not have a current Mining Permit, please contact me for issuance.

Luciolla
Stockholder
#15 - 2016-11-29 15:15:17 UTC
I have always been 100% pvp and at times been a very aggressive war dec corp in high sec. but at the moment I run a casual indy corp (its so weird). We just got war decced. Being on the receiving end is an interesting change of perspective. Sure you can swap corps and avoid the war. The aggressors can just deck that corp and so on. a war dec on an industrial corp shuts down all mining and most mission running. shutting off the source of most peoples income in an unwanted conflict. 90% of the time these indy corps are targeted randomly just because they were recruiting or active in a system. this will prevent people from loggin on for a week or more, or some will just quit playing the game altogether, and who benefits from that? On the flip side I like the option to war dec and it shouldnt be too limiting and restrictive for the aggressors, but they need a reason to declare war.

Im assuming alot of eve players have played Europa Universalis, I think it could be interesting to have some sort of Casus Belli system or "just Cause" for a war to take place. don't ask me how exactly this system would work but it would force the attackers to "fabricate a claim" or something like that. Give them a reason or justification to declare a war, and not just frivolously declare wars at random.

Just some thoughts from someone that knows both sides.
Lasisha Mishi
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#16 - 2016-11-29 15:25:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Lasisha Mishi
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
Tom Gerard wrote:



The incentive should be unique to the defender and furthermore unique to the war declaration system, It should not be a "I W.I.N. button" but it should provide entertaining gameplay.

Other possibilities would include:
Attacking Corporation may not operate warp drives while under weapon's timers.
Defending Corporation given a list of attackers, their online status, and their real-time location.
Defending Corporation able to declare a "Home" system which will be defended by local militia.
Attacking Corporation members show up as warpable in the overview

Any of these would provide a unique "Carrot" to stick around and fight back.

.......WHY ARE YOU NOT VOTABLE FOR IN THE CSM

*spams the vote for button anyway*


Because anyone that understands the game also understands that all the ideas listed here are terrible. They assume the defending corp is at an inherent disadvantage. They are not.

the defendign corp is at an inherent disadvantage

considerign the war dec spammers tend to have groups of people
and the defendign corp is likely to have under 10 people in the corp....total.


the war dec spammers want to gank, and are set up for it (i say gank. not pvp as theres no one fighting back)
the defending corp usually doesn't, and so isnt set up for PvP, hence being in highsec.

thats why so many people leave corp or just don't undock when they get wardec'd. they don't want it.
mkint
#17 - 2016-11-29 15:27:24 UTC
Damnit, I need to check who the thread OP is now before I click on them. Didn't this guy get permabanned from the forums? Did the alpha thing unban people?

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#18 - 2016-11-29 15:29:05 UTC
Lasisha Mishi wrote:

the defendign corp is at an inherent disadvantage

How so?
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
#19 - 2016-11-29 15:33:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
Tom Gerard wrote:



The incentive should be unique to the defender and furthermore unique to the war declaration system, It should not be a "I W.I.N. button" but it should provide entertaining gameplay.

Other possibilities would include:
Attacking Corporation may not operate warp drives while under weapon's timers.
Defending Corporation given a list of attackers, their online status, and their real-time location.
Defending Corporation able to declare a "Home" system which will be defended by local militia.
Attacking Corporation members show up as warpable in the overview

Any of these would provide a unique "Carrot" to stick around and fight back.

.......WHY ARE YOU NOT VOTABLE FOR IN THE CSM

*spams the vote for button anyway*


Because anyone that understands the game also understands that all the ideas listed here are terrible. They assume the defending corp is at an inherent disadvantage. They are not.

the defendign corp is at an inherent disadvantage

considerign the war dec spammers tend to have groups of people
and the defendign corp is likely to have under 10 people in the corp....total.


the war dec spammers want to gank, and are set up for it (i say gank. not pvp as theres no one fighting back)
the defending corp usually doesn't, and so isnt set up for PvP, hence being in highsec.

thats why so many people leave corp or just don't undock when they get wardec'd. they don't want it.


You're gonna have to provide numbers for these assertions. CCP's numbers conflict with your claims, unfortunately, and if you think PVP corps don't get decced, you're mistaken. You'd be handing those corps, and corps that assist defenders, too much of an advantage over an attacker. Additionally, defenders are not at an inherent disadvantage just because they 'don't want to'. As for "isn't set up for PVP, hence being in highsec", that is their own mistake. PVP happens in highsec just like everywhere else in EVE. If you choose to play a PVP game and not learn the PVP, even if it's just for the sake of knowledge and understanding of how to avoid or evade an aggressor, then you disadvantage yourself.

For the record, I can point to four industrial corps that I've assisted as defenders in wardecs, who are now more than capable of not just defending themselves, but continuing their missioning and mining while the wardec is going. They are very successful high-sec corps as a result who now rarely get wardecced simply because they were able to bloody the nose of their aggressors, with future aggressors now looking at their kb and seeing, "oh, this indy corp can fight, let's leave them alone."

So while other industrial corps who "just don't wanna" are quitting or logging off for the week of their dec, these other indi corps continue working, continue profiting. They are winning EVE. I actually just bought a new Thanatos off one of em today.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#20 - 2016-11-29 15:42:50 UTC
Luciolla wrote:
I have always been 100% pvp and at times been a very aggressive war dec corp in high sec. but at the moment I run a casual indy corp (its so weird). We just got war decced. Being on the receiving end is an interesting change of perspective. Sure you can swap corps and avoid the war. The aggressors can just deck that corp and so on. a war dec on an industrial corp shuts down all mining and most mission running. shutting off the source of most peoples income in an unwanted conflict. 90% of the time these indy corps are targeted randomly just because they were recruiting or active in a system. this will prevent people from loggin on for a week or more, or some will just quit playing the game altogether, and who benefits from that? On the flip side I like the option to war dec and it shouldnt be too limiting and restrictive for the aggressors, but they need a reason to declare war.

Im assuming alot of eve players have played Europa Universalis, I think it could be interesting to have some sort of Casus Belli system or "just Cause" for a war to take place. don't ask me how exactly this system would work but it would force the attackers to "fabricate a claim" or something like that. Give them a reason or justification to declare a war, and not just frivolously declare wars at random.

Just some thoughts from someone that knows both sides.


But you aren't so limited as to be unable to mission or mine. That is a restriction you place on yourself.

For example, you could run missions as a corp in frigates. You could easily do burner missions and not even lose much income. Of war targets show up, you may lose a frig or two, no issue. Heck watch local and you'll lose more frigate to rats than to the war targets.

For mining, take ventures and head to low decor even gas mine in wormholes. At most, you just need to be more vigilant.

I found the war decs to always be more limiting on my hauling accounts. They were the only ones at major risk. Those I kept docked up and just waited, while doing other stuff on my normal characters.
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