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Why Battleships?

First post
Author
Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
#141 - 2016-11-11 07:55:15 UTC
Steffles wrote:
...my money would be on this over the T3 anyday in a fleet

How much?
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2016-11-11 08:04:10 UTC
Violet Hurst wrote:
Steffles wrote:
...my money would be on this over the T3 anyday in a fleet

How much?

Unfortunately we're no longer allowed to gamble isk. Care to give your reasons why you don't think the Brutix is a match for the Proteus?

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg

Beast of Revelations
Multiverse Trading
#143 - 2016-11-11 09:38:25 UTC
Marcus Binchiette wrote:

Battleships are fleet assets. They are not meant for solo combat.


Without any documentation or supporting evidence (quotes from CCP, etc), this is what is known as a 'bare assertion.'

I see no reason why battleships weren't originally intended as 'bread and butter' ships, as much as any other ship. If you can provide some kind of support for your claims, I'll listen.
Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
#144 - 2016-11-11 09:41:14 UTC
Steffles wrote:
Unfortunately we're no longer allowed to gamble isk. Care to give your reasons why you don't think the Brutix is a match for the Proteus?


I'm fairly certain it's still legal. In contrast to gambling websites the so-called ingame third party services do not translate to third parties in a real world legal sense.
I also didn't say the Brutix is no match for the Proteus, I'd just put my money on the Proteus.

Anyway: You were talking fleet engagements there, so I assume there'd be some logi around. Otherwise the Proteus would have to drop a gun to fit an RR, so both fleets are spidertanked. I also assume that both of you didn't include additional ammo and cap charges in your cargo holds, but would pack it for an engagement.
That being said, you both rely on armor as the replenishing HP source and you both used EFT EHP. Your Brutixes are slower and have almost twice the sig of the Proteus', so transversal tanking doesn't favor you. And even if none of the ships moved, your armor would melt twice as fast as the Proteus' due to your lowest resists exactly matching the damage types of hybrid weapons.
The almost equal EHP of both fits stem largely from the bigger structure pool of the Brutixes, which doesn't get repped.
I also think that EFT can only include reload times in DPS calculation, not when it comes to capacitor. And while the Proteus' are stable even without the booster, the Brutixes aren't. They might run out of cap in a prolonged engagement, although I'm not certain about that.


My last point is a bit less tangible, but personally in a fleet I would include dedicated tacklers or bubbles and not rely on either presented fit for tackling. If that was the case, I'd have fitted long points. Scram-kiting might work in case of emergency in both cases, but in general I'd say they're too big for that. What this translates to is that in most cases I wouldn't operate inside web range and probably even pack some mid-range ammo.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#145 - 2016-11-11 10:42:13 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Steffles wrote:


So cheaper than the T3, more dps, twice as much cargo, 30k less tank but 224 armor reps x number of ships in fleet, discounting any logi. Has utiliity for web (fitted) or tracking disruptor, damps etc etc, better range, slightly slower until in web range. Could also ditch the remote rep and fit a nuet

Clearly its a match for the T3 and my money would be on this over the T3 anyday in a fleet, its a better ship.



Less DPS, slower, 1.7x larger sig, not cap stable, slower locking time.

Other major flaws are you have gone with RR which means they must ball up which makes them very vulnerable to titan DD and bombing runs. They are also impossible to resupply if you welp a few fleets as you cannot maintain the supply. They also will get chewed up by a carrier force and can be dread bombed effectively.

So much like like your onyx which has the colossal flaw of low EHP your plan is poor.

Steffles wrote:

Fact is its not the T3's that overpowered, its the addition of the oversized mods and the battleships are vastly underpowered.


So you think the mod that is adding 5k armour HP is the thing overpowering T3C, not the 37.5% bonus to armour hitpoints coupled with the 7 other bonuses the ship is getting coupled with the ample fitting room. Lets go through them.

7.5% bonus to armor hitpoints per level.
10% bonus to warp disruptor and warp scrambler range per level.
5% bonus to power output per level.
10% bonus to medium hybrid turret damage per level
10% bonus to medium hybrid turret falloff per level
7.5% bonus to medium hybrid turret tracking per level
15% reduction in afterburner and microwarpdrive capacitor consumption per level
5% reduction in module heat damage amount taken per skill level

How exactly is that balanced? We have a cruiser pulling battleship stats because of these bonuses and fitting room. Even in your argument to show its balanced you are having to use the navy version of the ship class above cruisers and you still can't match it.
Starrakatt
Celtic Anarchy
Dead Terrorists
#146 - 2016-11-11 13:28:46 UTC
I can't find the dev post, but I remember being stated by CCP that they were quite happy with their battleship rebalance and called it a success... within the class, not so much vs other class of ships.

T3C rebalance was mentioned, and that Battleships were to have another balance pass after Capitals and T3C were done.

That was before they introduced T3D, new Faction Frigates, the Cap/Supercaps rebalance, and lately the Industrial ships rebalance.

Key words here: T3C re-balance, then Battleship rebalance.
Memphis Baas
#147 - 2016-11-11 14:06:41 UTC
Steffles wrote:
Having said that, your statement contains no proof, is not an argument, and therefore is not debating. Its just an statement of opinion without backup.
Fine, let me speak your language, as it's so effective:


[Proteus]
Proteus Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector
Proteus Defensive - Adaptive Augmenter
Proteus Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Proteus Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors

Damage Control II
800mm Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Power Diagnostic System II
Armor Explosive Hardener II

10MN Afterburner II
Medium Cap Battery II
Medium Cap Battery II
Medium Cap Battery II

Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II

Medium Remote Repair Augmentor II
Medium Remote Repair Augmentor II
Medium Remote Repair Augmentor II

Heavy Armor Maintenance Bot II x3
Hammerhead II x5

Scan Resolution Script x1
Nanite Repair Paste x200
Mobile Depot x1

[Oneiros]
Federation Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Federation Navy Armor Explosive Hardener
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System

10MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
True Sansha Cap Recharger
True Sansha Cap Recharger
Medium Cap Battery II

Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II

Medium Armor Maintenance Bot II x5

[Megathron]

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Shadow Serpentis Armor Explosive Hardener
Shadow Serpentis Armor Kinetic Hardener
Shadow Serpentis Armor Thermal Hardener
Adaptive Nano Plating II

500MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 3200

425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Large Anti-EM Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II

[Proteus]

Damage Control II
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
True Sansha Armor EM Hardener
True Sansha Armor Explosive Hardener

Dread Guristas Warp Scrambler
Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Offensive - Dissonic Encoding Platform
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors

[Brutix Navy Issue]
Federation Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Armor Explosive Hardener
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Ammatar Navy Reactor Control Unit
Damage Control II

Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
True Sansha Stasis Webifier
Dread Guristas Warp Scrambler
10MN Afterburner II

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Medium Coaxial Compact Remote Armor Repairer

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Valkyrie II x5
Valkyrie II x2

[Megathron Navy Issue]
1600mm Steel Plates II
1600mm Steel Plates II
Centum C-Type Energized Explosive Membrane
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

100MN Afterburner II
Heavy Stasis Grappler II
Warp Scrambler II
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 3200

Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Null L

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Ogre II x4
Ogre II x1
Warrior II x5

[Onyx, Kiting DPS]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System

Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pith X-Type EM Ward Field
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Corelum A-Type 10MN Afterburner

True Sansha Warp Disruption Field Generator, Focused Warp Disruption Script
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile x5

Medium Core Defense Operational Solidifier II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Zakks
CSR NAVY
Citizen's Star Republic
#148 - 2016-11-11 22:57:14 UTC
Steffles wrote:

In regards to Debating:


From what I have read in this thread, the multiple fallacies in your arguments make debating with you rather pointless. If you are going to quote proper "debating", follow the rules yourself.
Aiwha
Infinite Point
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#149 - 2016-11-12 02:46:43 UTC
Machs rattlesnakes and nightmares don't have trouble hitting things because web lokis.

Sanity is fun leaving the body.

Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#150 - 2016-11-12 07:34:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Steffles
baltec1 wrote:
Steffles wrote:


So cheaper than the T3, more dps, twice as much cargo, 30k less tank but 224 armor reps x number of ships in fleet, discounting any logi. Has utiliity for web (fitted) or tracking disruptor, damps etc etc, better range, slightly slower until in web range. Could also ditch the remote rep and fit a nuet

Clearly its a match for the T3 and my money would be on this over the T3 anyday in a fleet, its a better ship.



Less DPS, slower, 1.7x larger sig, not cap stable, slower locking time.

Other major flaws are you have gone with RR which means they must ball up which makes them very vulnerable to titan DD and bombing runs. They are also impossible to resupply if you welp a few fleets as you cannot maintain the supply. They also will get chewed up by a carrier force and can be dread bombed effectively.

So much like like your onyx which has the colossal flaw of low EHP your plan is poor.

Steffles wrote:

Fact is its not the T3's that overpowered, its the addition of the oversized mods and the battleships are vastly underpowered.


So you think the mod that is adding 5k armour HP is the thing overpowering T3C, not the 37.5% bonus to armour hitpoints coupled with the 7 other bonuses the ship is getting coupled with the ample fitting room. Lets go through them.

7.5% bonus to armor hitpoints per level.
10% bonus to warp disruptor and warp scrambler range per level.
5% bonus to power output per level.
10% bonus to medium hybrid turret damage per level
10% bonus to medium hybrid turret falloff per level
7.5% bonus to medium hybrid turret tracking per level
15% reduction in afterburner and microwarpdrive capacitor consumption per level
5% reduction in module heat damage amount taken per skill level

How exactly is that balanced? We have a cruiser pulling battleship stats because of these bonuses and fitting room. Even in your argument to show its balanced you are having to use the navy version of the ship class above cruisers and you still can't match it.

Has more dps. Its slightly slower but given the web twice as fast in web range. With a tracking disruptor in close your Proteus is hitting for half the damage its hitting for, at mid range with a damp your proteus is hitting for 0 damage, switched out for a tracking disruptor at range 40km+ with optimal range script your proteus is hitting for 20dps while its hitting for 120. It has almost the same ehp (1/5 less) and its a t1.

The reason I chose the navy version is not because its better, its because the other Brutix are active rep bonused and this version is not. The Brutix because its a similiar ship to the Proteus.

You list all the wonderful bonuses the Proteus gets however its not the bonuses that are important, its the completed ship and how that ship compares to other ships. I've shown with the Brutix, a T1 faction ship, that it can measure up to the Proteus quite well despite the "absurd bonuses" you think the Proteus gets.

You can see here quite clearly that they are quite evenly matched. Within 5 k the Brutix is superior. Outside 5k to 30k they are close to even, the Proteus does more dps but the Brutix have remote reps and web outside of scram range meaning they dictate range. With a nuet the Prots will go down fast, outside of 40k the Brutix clearly destroy the Prots. There is no overwhelming superiority of T3 here. Sure you can say bombers will destroy remote repping Brutixs's but they'll do that to any ships with remote reps, or any fleet that anchors up.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg

Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
#151 - 2016-11-12 11:49:01 UTC
Looks interesting, could you please post the fits you used for that graph?
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2016-11-12 12:06:01 UTC
Violet Hurst wrote:
Looks interesting, could you please post the fits you used for that graph?

Already have.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg

Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
#153 - 2016-11-12 12:34:34 UTC
Post 136 ? That's odd then. When I make a graph with those ships the Proteus does roughly 30% more damage and the Brutix has a web spike...
EFT 2.35?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#154 - 2016-11-12 17:12:42 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Steffles wrote:

Has more dps.


100 less DPS.



Steffles wrote:

Its slightly slower but given the web twice as fast in web range. With a tracking disruptor in close your Proteus is hitting for half the damage its hitting for, at mid range with a damp your proteus is hitting for 0 damage, switched out for a tracking disruptor at range 40km+ with optimal range script your proteus is hitting for 20dps while its hitting for 120. It has almost the same ehp (1/5 less) and its a t1.


In web range, on a rail ship...


Steffles wrote:

The reason I chose the navy version is not because its better, its because the other Brutix are active rep bonused and this version is not. The Brutix because its a similiar ship to the Proteus.


The pprot is a cruiser, the very fact you are having to use navy battlecruisers and you still cannot match it shows how overpowered they are.




Steffles wrote:

You list all the wonderful bonuses the Proteus gets however its not the bonuses that are important, its the completed ship and how that ship compares to other ships.


Take away those bonuses are it drops from battleship level to poor t1 cruiser level.


Steffles wrote:

You can see here quite clearly that they are quite evenly matched. Within 5 k the Brutix is superior. Outside 5k to 30k they are close to even, the Proteus does more dps but the Brutix have remote reps and web outside of scram range meaning they dictate range. With a nuet the Prots will go down fast, outside of 40k the Brutix clearly destroy the Prots. There is no overwhelming superiority of T3 here. Sure you can say bombers will destroy remote repping Brutixs's but they'll do that to any ships with remote reps, or any fleet that anchors up.


Clearly you have no idea how fleets operate in null.
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#155 - 2016-11-12 17:59:43 UTC
575 Prot vs 609 Brutix - It has more dps.

Brutix can fit both rails AND blasters.

The Proteus is a T3 Cruiser. Not a cruiser. The issue is not one of class size its one of "Does the Proteus have a counter within reasonable range in terms of skill, cost and ability", "if it does its not overpowered". Given that the Brutix requires less skill training, less isk and can provide a counter to the Proteus then the Proteus is balanced unless the BNI is itself overpowered. Since the BNI is not overpowered then the Proteus cannot be overpowered.

Take away those bonuses and its not a T3 cruiser.

I know exactly how fleets operate.

I've clearly demonstrated that the BNI fleet could defeat the Proteus fleet based on range. Even if it couldnt' beat it at close range, which I believe it could, with the addition of damps or tracking disruptors it easily defeats the Proteus you fit over 40k.

With a tracking disruptor with optimal range script your looking at that Proteus having a 34+12 optimal / falloff with spike while the Brutix has 81 + 19. With Damps and a Targeting Range Script the Proteus can't lock over 41km. While the Brutix can lock to 80+.





Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#156 - 2016-11-12 19:19:18 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Steffles wrote:
575 Prot vs 609 Brutix - It has more dps.


480 for the brutix.


Steffles wrote:

Brutix can fit both rails AND blasters.


There is a reason why nobody used med blasters in large fleet actions.

Steffles wrote:

The Proteus is a T3 Cruiser. Not a cruiser.


Hint is in the name. Its a cruiser, its supposed to be between t1 and t2 in terms of power, not beating battleships at being a battleship.

Steffles wrote:

The issue is not one of class size its one of "Does the Proteus have a counter within reasonable range in terms of skill, cost and ability", "if it does its not overpowered". Given that the Brutix requires less skill training, less isk and can provide a counter to the Proteus then the Proteus is balanced unless the BNI is itself overpowered. Since the BNI is not overpowered then the Proteus cannot be overpowered.


You are still defending a cruiser by comparing it to a navy battlecruiser.

Steffles wrote:

Take away those bonuses and its not a T3 cruiser.




Its not overpowered you mean. The bonuses are what is causing the problem, you simply cannot add that many bonuses and not get an overpowered ship, no matter what class of hull.
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2016-11-12 19:53:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Steffles
600 dps. It fields 5 med drones.

Heres 3 more for you.

Damnation - 190k ehp (more than both your Prot and Battleship), 240k ehp if you add a links vs 212 Prot with same links. Fully cap stable with everything running. 500dps. Selectable ammo type. Murders the Proteus with its nuet and nova's. With MWD much much faster and small sig since mwd velocity cancels out sig bloom + adds sig reduction due to extra velocity.


Buffer Onyx - 137k ehp (23k less ehp than Prot), fully cap stable. Selectable ammo type. Murders the Proteus with its nova's and resists. Has a lovely 37k infinite scram. Close to the same damage with scourge.

Buffer Eagle - 150k ehp (10k less than Proteus), 1685 m/s cap stable. Optimal with antimatter 41k vs 18k. At optimal for the Eagle, Prot is doing almost no damage.

The point is your saying the Proteus is overpowered because its equal to a battleship. So are the ships above. The damnation is worse than the Proteus in that regard. It has a bigger tank than the Proteus, more utility and cruiser sized selectable damage type weaponry.


[Eagle, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Power Diagnostic System II

Thukker Large Shield Extender
Thukker Large Shield Extender
Thukker Large Shield Extender
Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pith X-Type EM Ward Field
Corelum C-Type 50MN Microwarpdrive

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II





[Damnation, New Setup 1]
Syndicate 1600mm Steel Plates
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Large Compact Pb-Acid Cap Battery
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II
Corelum C-Type 50MN Microwarpdrive

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Heavy Assault Missile x 5
Medium Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer
[empty high slot]

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Valkyrie II x5


[Onyx, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Thukker Large Shield Extender
Thukker Large Shield Extender
Thukker Large Shield Extender
Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pith X-Type EM Ward Field
10MN Afterburner II

Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Light Missile x 5
Warp Disruption Field Generator II, Focused Warp Disruption Script

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#158 - 2016-11-12 21:12:58 UTC
Steffles wrote:
600 dps. It fields 5 med drones.


That get left behind with the first tactical warp.



Steffles wrote:

Heres 3 more for you.

Damnation - 190k ehp (more than both your Prot and Battleship), 240k ehp if you add a links vs 212 Prot with same links. Fully cap stable with everything running. 500dps. Selectable ammo type. Murders the Proteus with its nuet and nova's. With MWD much much faster and small sig since mwd velocity cancels out sig bloom + adds sig reduction due to extra velocity.


Buffer Onyx - 137k ehp (23k less ehp than Prot), fully cap stable. Selectable ammo type. Murders the Proteus with its nova's and resists. Has a lovely 37k infinite scram. Close to the same damage with scourge.

Buffer Eagle - 150k ehp (10k less than Proteus), 1685 m/s cap stable. Optimal with antimatter 41k vs 18k. At optimal for the Eagle, Prot is doing almost no damage.

The point is your saying the Proteus is overpowered because its equal to a battleship. So are the ships above. The damnation is worse than the Proteus in that regard. It has a bigger tank than the Proteus, more utility and cruiser sized selectable damage type weaponry.


[Eagle, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Power Diagnostic System II

Thukker Large Shield Extender
Thukker Large Shield Extender
Thukker Large Shield Extender
Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pith X-Type EM Ward Field
Corelum C-Type 50MN Microwarpdrive

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II





[Damnation, New Setup 1]
Syndicate 1600mm Steel Plates
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Large Compact Pb-Acid Cap Battery
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II
Corelum C-Type 50MN Microwarpdrive

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Heavy Assault Missile x 5
Medium Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer
[empty high slot]

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Valkyrie II x5


[Onyx, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Thukker Large Shield Extender
Thukker Large Shield Extender
Thukker Large Shield Extender
Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pith X-Type EM Ward Field
10MN Afterburner II

Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Light Missile x 5
Warp Disruption Field Generator II, Focused Warp Disruption Script

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II


Eagle is not cap stable, has a massive sig, far less firepower, less tank, worse tracking.

damnation colossal sig, poor damage application, poor range, less firepower even before we take into account poor application.

Onyx, unable to break an enemy fleet, less tank.

None of those ships are equal to battleships, they all have flaws which is why nobody is flying your fits. T3C do not have flaws, they can be fitted to be better than battleships at the role of being a battleship as well as being better BC, hacs, cov ops and so on. Your rambling shitfits changes nothing, T3C are horribly overpowered and its the bonuses that are causing it. You simply cannot slap on 8 bonuses, most of them 10% per level and not get an overpowered ship.
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2016-11-12 22:30:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Steffles wrote:
600 dps. It fields 5 med drones.


That get left behind with the first tactical warp.



Steffles wrote:

Heres 3 more for you.

Damnation - 190k ehp (more than both your Prot and Battleship), 240k ehp if you add a links vs 212 Prot with same links. Fully cap stable with everything running. 500dps. Selectable ammo type. Murders the Proteus with its nuet and nova's. With MWD much much faster and small sig since mwd velocity cancels out sig bloom + adds sig reduction due to extra velocity.


Buffer Onyx - 137k ehp (23k less ehp than Prot), fully cap stable. Selectable ammo type. Murders the Proteus with its nova's and resists. Has a lovely 37k infinite scram. Close to the same damage with scourge.

Buffer Eagle - 150k ehp (10k less than Proteus), 1685 m/s cap stable. Optimal with antimatter 41k vs 18k. At optimal for the Eagle, Prot is doing almost no damage.

The point is your saying the Proteus is overpowered because its equal to a battleship. So are the ships above. The damnation is worse than the Proteus in that regard. It has a bigger tank than the Proteus, more utility and cruiser sized selectable damage type weaponry.


[Eagle, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Power Diagnostic System II

Thukker Large Shield Extender
Thukker Large Shield Extender
Thukker Large Shield Extender
Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pith X-Type EM Ward Field
Corelum C-Type 50MN Microwarpdrive

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II





[Damnation, New Setup 1]
Syndicate 1600mm Steel Plates
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Large Compact Pb-Acid Cap Battery
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II
Corelum C-Type 50MN Microwarpdrive

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Heavy Assault Missile x 5
Medium Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer
[empty high slot]

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Valkyrie II x5


[Onyx, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Thukker Large Shield Extender
Thukker Large Shield Extender
Thukker Large Shield Extender
Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pith X-Type EM Ward Field
10MN Afterburner II

Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Light Missile x 5
Warp Disruption Field Generator II, Focused Warp Disruption Script

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II


Eagle is not cap stable, has a massive sig, far less firepower, less tank, worse tracking.

damnation colossal sig, poor damage application, poor range, less firepower even before we take into account poor application.

Onyx, unable to break an enemy fleet, less tank.

None of those ships are equal to battleships, they all have flaws which is why nobody is flying your fits. T3C do not have flaws, they can be fitted to be better than battleships at the role of being a battleship as well as being better BC, hacs, cov ops and so on. Your rambling shitfits changes nothing, T3C are horribly overpowered and its the bonuses that are causing it. You simply cannot slap on 8 bonuses, most of them 10% per level and not get an overpowered ship.

The reason nobody is flying them is because there is no T3C emergency and there is no need to have 150k ehp cruisers to counter your fantasy of the T3C emergency.

People are flying canes, cerbs, svipuls, T3's, rattles, bhargests, Caracals, Machs, etc etc. If Prots were so amazingly overpowered that's all we'd see in fleets but its not.

T3's don't need to be nerfed to make battleships good again, battleships need to be buffed and made more mobile and they need better damage application (turret based RHML). That's it.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#160 - 2016-11-12 23:09:01 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Steffles wrote:

The reason nobody is flying them is because there is no T3C emergency and there is no need to have 150k ehp cruisers to counter your fantasy of the T3C emergency.


We dont want 130k ehp cruisers to counter T3C we want T3C to be cruisers, not pocket battleships.

Steffles wrote:

People are flying canes, cerbs, svipuls, T3's, rattles, bhargests, Caracals, Machs, etc etc. If Prots were so amazingly overpowered that's all we'd see in fleets but its not.


People flew all sorts of things back when cavalry ravens existed, back when titans had remote AOE doomsdays, back when the dram was god, back when nano was everything.



Steffles wrote:

T3's don't need to be nerfed to make battleships good again, battleships need to be buffed and made more mobile and they need better damage application (turret based RHML). That's it.


That's called power creep. You don't buff everything around the 4 overpowered ships you nerf the problem ships. Hence why T3D are getting the sledge hammer applied to their face.