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Why Battleships?

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SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#101 - 2016-11-08 16:36:06 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Beast of Revelations wrote:


2) I see no reason why any single frigate would ever beat any single battleship within the role of that battleship ('mana a mana' straightforward, non-fancy, slug-it-out fight to the death combat) - ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL OF COURSE (piloting skills, fitting, etc). Several things could be proposed to fix this, and I don't know which one is right.

Perhaps like with tanks in the real world, light weaponry simply has no effect (machine gun bullets merely bounce off of tanks). This could mean small weapons do no damage to a battleship. Or perhaps battleships should be equipped with entirely separate slots for 'flak' type weaponry which would hurt frigs. Or perhaps the silliness with battleships not being able to track and hit frigates could simply be done away with, and the battleship merely aims, unloads a single volley, and the single frigate disappears.



RollRollRoll

Perhaps you should spend less time opining on the forums and more time actually playing the game.

Battleships that die to lone frigates are almost invariably piloted by some imbecile with no earthly notion of how to fit or fly them, and usually as a result of being baited in high sec.

It's hilarious that you think this is a real mechanical issue.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#102 - 2016-11-08 16:52:57 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
Wanda Fayne wrote:

Pick a battleship.
I will fit and fly that battleship.
Meet me in space with ANYTHING you choose to fly.


This scenario hides one of the major reasons why battleships aren't more popular.

How about you fly the battleship and he flies whatever he wants, and both of you start in Jita and have to go to the deep end of Providence, with whoever gets there first being able to add to his fleet 1 friend/alt per every 10 minutes spent waiting for the other person.


the op said PVP, not traveling

We can't all just sit on the gate/titan and wait for the "fight" to fall in our laps. Blink

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#103 - 2016-11-08 17:00:03 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
Wanda Fayne wrote:

Pick a battleship.
I will fit and fly that battleship.
Meet me in space with ANYTHING you choose to fly.


This scenario hides one of the major reasons why battleships aren't more popular.

How about you fly the battleship and he flies whatever he wants, and both of you start in Jita and have to go to the deep end of Providence, with whoever gets there first being able to add to his fleet 1 friend/alt per every 10 minutes spent waiting for the other person.


the op said PVP, not traveling

We can't all just sit on the gate/titan and wait for the "fight" to fall in our laps. Blink


People are roaming in gate traveling carriers.

CCP gave us several things to get around warp speed so use them if you want to go fast. They have also given us several things for dealing with small ships such as rapid launchers, webs, the grapple and lower firepower but higher tracking guns. Droneboats are great vs smaller ships, the likes of the geddon make fantastic platforms and the Hyperion is far from a pushover.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#104 - 2016-11-08 17:13:42 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Steffles wrote:

As for the T3C = too stronk, its rubbish. They're fine, as stated earlier with evidence which you failed to respond to, its the oversized modules that shouldn't be fit to smaller ships that are being fit to smaller ships, causing some of them to be OP.



I responded with an example that was better in every way than a battleship. A ship that is getting 7 bonuses that average out at 10% per level per bonus cannot ever be balanced.
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2016-11-08 17:59:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Steffles wrote:

As for the T3C = too stronk, its rubbish. They're fine, as stated earlier with evidence which you failed to respond to, its the oversized modules that shouldn't be fit to smaller ships that are being fit to smaller ships, causing some of them to be OP.



I responded with an example that was better in every way than a battleship. A ship that is getting 7 bonuses that average out at 10% per level per bonus cannot ever be balanced.

Except it is balanced without oversized mods. My Onyx example clearly showed that with oversized mods, an Onyx can be as good as or better than a Tengu if fit similiarly.

If you take away oversized mods from a T3 theyr'e not much better than your average ship even though you lose a week of training when they blow up.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
Memphis Baas
#106 - 2016-11-08 18:05:48 UTC
Steffles wrote:
even though you lose a week of training when they blow up.


I'd like to see that go away. I'd be ok with CCP nerfing T3 strongly, so T3's are just a ship like any other, and then getting rid of that skill loss mechanic.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#107 - 2016-11-08 18:38:05 UTC
Battleships serve a very important purpose. They are a "new player likely not to stay in Eve long" filter! New players that are all about the minimum skills to get into the "biggest" ship love them! And the people that like to blow up people that rushed into thier first battleship love them too!

I have on occasion found myself enjoying a battleship mostly for the high alpha they can produce and even flew one in the last Alliance tournament I was in. I got blown up pretty fast but that was sort of the point. We wanted a distraction while other ships like our tanked "Battle Blackbird" flew around just to survive and win us the match.

I have seen them used to be not half bad mining platforms! Big smile
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#108 - 2016-11-08 19:52:32 UTC
Steffles wrote:

Except it is balanced without oversized mods.


I didn't use any and still got more tank, a bit more firepower, better tracking, half the sig, 3x the speed and cap stability.
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#109 - 2016-11-09 00:58:07 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
Wanda Fayne wrote:

Pick a battleship.
I will fit and fly that battleship.
Meet me in space with ANYTHING you choose to fly.

This scenario hides one of the major reasons why battleships aren't more popular.

How about you fly the battleship and he flies whatever he wants, and both of you start in Jita and have to go to the deep end of Providence, with whoever gets there first being able to add to his fleet 1 friend/alt per every 10 minutes spent waiting for the other person.


the op said PVP, not traveling

This doesn't only involve traveling, but catching targets, engaging them and disengaging if required. Battleships (again, with a few exceptions) can do none of that very well. Now you could bring some friends to help you with that, or you can fit your battleship to warp fast, align quickly and have high(er) scan res. But that's just a band aid for a problem that shouldn't even be there, and then you could as well just fly a T3C and probably be better off in 9 out of 10 cases.

It doesn't really matter to me whether T3Cs, T3Ds (and Onyxes apparently - love that ship by the way) are too strong or Battleships (especially T1 and Navy variants) are too weak, that's a hen or egg type discussion and pretty pointless. But there's definitely a problem there. Now, having more of a nerf everything mindset, I'd like to see some changes made to other ships (specifically T3C) to make some space for Battleships to be useful. (D.I.C.K.S is a nerf to Bombers, so GJ CCP, hope it works out as planned) That doesn't necessarily mean to make those ships weaker across the board, but take some roles from them that battleships can fill.

For example, I can't see why some T3Cs should be able to project damage as far out as they do, and with great application too. That's what Battleships and Sniping HACs are there for, only that compared to a sniping T3C, a sniping HAC is wet paper and a Battleship is basically stationary. I can see why a HIC or Command Ship would need a huge tank that can rival a Battleships, especially considering ongrid boosters becoming a thing. I don't see why a T3C should have the same huge tank, when fitted for a DPS role. Doing lots of damage and still having a huge tank is what battleships are for, that's why they are so big and slow. I also don't see why an Onyx needs to have good range and application while still maintaining decent DPS. It's a ship specialized for pinning down targets, not for killing them. That's what Battleships, Battlecruisers or DPS-Cruisers/HACs should be doing.

Tanking while dealing damage or sniping are what battleships are good for, but in practice T3Cs (and sometimes HICs) are better in most cases, due to being able to do that as well and more. (sig-tank, tackle, travel, even warp cloaked and ignore bubbles - yes, that requires a refit, but that's not really a hindrance these days like it was back when they were released).
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2016-11-09 04:05:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Steffles
baltec1 wrote:
Steffles wrote:

Except it is balanced without oversized mods.


I didn't use any and still got more tank, a bit more firepower, better tracking, half the sig, 3x the speed and cap stability.


Me vs You. Non-T3C's. Ships are at bottom. I took one of your mega's from zkillboard.

Onyx -
DPS 535
Tank 1965 (2495) active; I usually use a improved blue pill but I'll leave it out this time but it would get me 3k
Cap Stable
Kite Range 40k
Speed 650 (840)

Your Navy Mega
DPS 960 paper
Tank 150,000 buffer
Cap Stable (until charges run out) ; 4 38 seconds
Kite Range 4+13
Speed 379 (497)

Lets say you land on me at 10km. It will take you 7 seconds to lock me. I'll be just inside your heavy stasis range and outside your scram range (not that that matters) by the time you've locked me , the nuet is the only problem for me. Your dps is about 100. With your nuet on me and all permarunning I cap out in 2.27 in that time the speed difference between us would put me 50km from you. Before that happens I'm outside your nuet range, orbiting you at 35k and your dps is pretty much 0, I can easily tank your drones. All this time my light missiles are doing 100% damage @ around 270dps, almost 3 times your large blaster damage if I was sitting in your optimal not moving.

If I decide to just sit still I'll still tank your 100dps, at 100dps pulsing my repper you won't cap me out. Either way.

You're dead.

No T3C needed.


[Megathron Navy Issue, baltec1's Megathron Navy Issue]
1600mm Steel Plates II
1600mm Steel Plates II
Centum C-Type Energized Explosive Membrane
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

100MN Afterburner II
Heavy Stasis Grappler II
Warp Scrambler II
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 3200

Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Null L

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Ogre II x4
Ogre II x1
Warrior II x5



[Onyx, Kiting DPS]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System

Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pith X-Type EM Ward Field
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Corelum A-Type 10MN Afterburner

True Sansha Warp Disruption Field Generator, Focused Warp Disruption Script
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile

Medium Core Defense Operational Solidifier II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II

Edit:

One more thing. If we took 2 modules off the Onyx, the battleship sized battery and the battleship sized booster and replaced them with the best medium faction - You would cap me out in 5 minutes which would be ample time to kill me before I ate through your armor, unless I managed to get out of your range which I probably could.

Stats would change to

Tank - 600dps (-1800dps)
Cap - 5 mins (-cap stable)

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2016-11-09 06:12:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Steffles
Heres another one for you Baltec.

DPS: 700 dps
Tank Both Reppers: (4 minutes under 1 heavy nuet) 700 (910)
Tank: Medium Ancilliary Armor Repairer (Cap Stable under 1 heavy nuet) 426 (551)
Tank: Corelum Medium (Cap Stable under 1 Heavy Nuet) 278 (359)
Speed: 2000 (3000)

Its unkillable by your mega. Your max dps is less then the med repper even if I sat still.

If we took off the battleship sized battery and changed it to a medium of the same type. Cap out in 57 seconds both reppers, 2 minutes if we use one. Clearly this one battleship sized module is the defining winning factor.

[Deimos, New Setup 1]
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Corelum C-Type Medium Armor Repairer
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Explosive Membrane II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Thukker Large Cap Battery
True Sansha Stasis Webifier
True Sansha Warp Scrambler
Corelum C-Type 50MN Microwarpdrive

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Null M

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Nanobot Accelerator II

Hammerhead II x5

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#112 - 2016-11-09 09:35:31 UTC
Well it is a bit unfair to pit a poor mans T2 fit Megathron against a 1.6B Swag-Onyx. But in the end there's nothing you could slap onto the Megathron to give it a boost equal to what the Onyx gets by fitting a Battleship-sized Booster. Capital modules don't fit on a BS. :D
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#113 - 2016-11-09 09:35:58 UTC
Spoken like someone who doesn't fly battleships.


Now lets look at the meta out there. If you want a battleship fleet you turn to T3C because they are faster, tank more, get better tracking and a so forth. People are not using battleships not because of any fault of the battleships, its because the T3C do their job better, same goes for AHAC fleets, BC fleets and so on.

Its not the oversized mods, its the massive amount of bonuses T3C get coupled with ample fitting room. No amount of your posting is going to change anyones mind on this, we all know thse ships are horribly overpowered, CCP knows they are horribly overpowered and they have been for far far too long.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#114 - 2016-11-09 09:38:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Spoken like someone who doesn't fly battleships.


Now lets look at the meta out there. If you want a battleship fleet you turn to T3C because they are faster, tank more, get better tracking and a so forth. People are not using battleships not because of any fault of the battleships, its because the T3C do their job better, same goes for AHAC fleets, BC fleets and so on.

Its not the oversized mods, its the massive amount of bonuses T3C get coupled with ample fitting room. No amount of your posting is going to change anyones mind on this, we all know thse ships are horribly overpowered, CCP knows they are horribly overpowered and they have been for far far too long.


im seeing less and less t3c fleets going around these days...

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#115 - 2016-11-09 09:42:38 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Lan Wang wrote:


im seeing less and less t3c fleets going around these days...


The breakup of the old empires means a lot have moved around and money has been more tight. Now that people are getting settled expect them to come back. The only reason goons went with megathrons was due to training time, organisations who can mass field T3C have the advantage. They have not lost any of their power.
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2016-11-09 11:34:40 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Spoken like someone who doesn't fly battleships.


Now lets look at the meta out there. If you want a battleship fleet you turn to T3C because they are faster, tank more, get better tracking and a so forth. People are not using battleships not because of any fault of the battleships, its because the T3C do their job better, same goes for AHAC fleets, BC fleets and so on.

Its not the oversized mods, its the massive amount of bonuses T3C get coupled with ample fitting room. No amount of your posting is going to change anyones mind on this, we all know thse ships are horribly overpowered, CCP knows they are horribly overpowered and they have been for far far too long.

You can lead a man to water but you can't make him think... I have shown you, with evidence, that it is indeed the oversized modules that are causing the problem.

Show me a T3C that doesn't use oversized modules that is overpowered. I'd be interested to see one.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#117 - 2016-11-09 11:39:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:


im seeing less and less t3c fleets going around these days...


The breakup of the old empires means a lot have moved around and money has been more tight. Now that people are getting settled expect them to come back. The only reason goons went with megathrons was due to training time, organisations who can mass field T3C have the advantage. They have not lost any of their power.


hope not, i like my machariels Sad

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Memphis Baas
#118 - 2016-11-09 13:28:43 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Now lets look at the meta out there. If you want a battleship fleet you turn to T3C because they are faster, tank more, get better tracking and a so forth. People are not using battleships not because of any fault of the battleships, its because the T3C do their job better, same goes for AHAC fleets, BC fleets and so on.


That's the thing, though. You're implying that, if only they nerfed the T3C's faster, all would be right with battleships and everyone would fly them. When in fact, with T3C's made worthless, there are still a number of other ships that need to be nerfed before battleships are flown.

T3C
HAC
2 Battlecruisers
couple friends in T1 cruisers
Battleship

CCP would have to do a lot of nerfing before battleships become desirable. You keep refocusing the discussion to "nerf T3C only!" when in fact that doesn't solve the problem of battleships, it just solves the problem of T3C's. I'm sick of discussing the problem of T3C's, this is a battleships thread! ****.
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2016-11-09 13:44:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Steffles
So I looked up a few of Pandemic Legions recent battles using T3C's. This is what I found - PL used the following ships T3C's (condensed for readability and at the bottom of this post)

The first T3C is the Proteus fitted with an oversized 1600mm battleship plate.

The use of a battleship plate took the ship from 130,000 ehp (had it been using 800mm cruiser sized plates) to 160,000 ehp or provided an extra 30,000 ehp, about that of a T1 cruiser.

However this is not where it stops. Its extremely like there was a booster in the battle so we need to consider the boosts. When boosts are applied to this ship the EHP jumps from 160,000 EHP to 220,000 EHP. 220K ehp for a cruiser. That's very overpowered.

For a Proteus with 800mm plates the boost would have been 30,000 ehp, making the Proteus have 160,000 EHP. In effect, the use of a single battleship sized module provided a massive 60,000 extra EHP on top of its already very good 160,000, that's the EHP of two cruisers on a cruiser just from one oversized modules. The end result is it went from high end battlecruiser EHP to high end battleship EHP.

I won't do the same with the legion however its a very similiar result. Remember you can easily fit 2 or 3 of these plates on a Proteus.

Now this is more important part:

We'll add Baltecs mega from earlier to fight one of these Proteus:

First we'll give Baltecs mega with 2 x battleship plates the same boosts - this takes him from 160,000 ehp to 197,000 ehp (20,000 ehp less than the Proteus now). We'll then calculate the lost dps with the Proteus grappled at point blank range also factoring in sig size of large guns without resists:

Baltec's Mega is doing 66% less damage because the Proteus is moving at 75m/s and its sig is much smaller. Total dps without resists = 350 of 1100. Essentially now to kill the Proteus the battleship has to do 220,000 x 3 or 660,000 damage. You know have a Proteus with 660,000 ehp with 60,000 x 3 or 180,000 extra of that EHP purely as a result of the oversized plate.

Now how much damage is the Proteus doing? Of the 585 dps its doing before resists its doing 550 dps. While the mega lost 66% the proteus only lost a few %. Its doing almost double the dps of the mega.

That is why battleships are such ****, apart from mobility


[Proteus, Dog0fWaRR's Proteus Oversized]
Damage Control II
Syndicate 1600mm Steel Plates
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II x 2
True Sansha Armor EM Hardener
True Sansha Armor Explosive Hardener

Dread Guristas Warp Scrambler
Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II x 3

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
Wanda Fayne
#120 - 2016-11-10 03:44:44 UTC
Steffles wrote:

Show me a T3C that doesn't use oversized modules that is overpowered. I'd be interested to see one.


[Proteus, LogiProtiBeast]
Proteus Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector
Proteus Defensive - Adaptive Augmenter
Proteus Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Proteus Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors

Damage Control II
Federation Navy 800mm Steel Plates
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Core C-Type Armor Explosive Hardener
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System

10MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
Republic Fleet Medium Cap Battery
Republic Fleet Medium Cap Battery
Republic Fleet Medium Cap Battery

Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Remote Repair Augmentor II
Medium Remote Repair Augmentor II

Heavy Armor Maintenance Bot II x3
Hammerhead II x5


Scan Resolution Script x1
Nanite Repair Paste x200
=========

Reps 80% more than a fully fitted Guardian.
54% more than a Oneiros.

Can do the same thing with a Tengu vs/ Basi or Scythe.

Fact:
T3C logi reps harder than a T2 logi.

Next argument...?

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-