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Clone States UI Changes

First post
Author
Duke Garland
Niflheimr Inc.
#21 - 2016-10-12 12:42:50 UTC
Valencia Blackheart wrote:
I am not sure if it is just my client, but the new skill queue will only allow me to add one skill to train as it deletes all of the others whenever I close the window/press pause/try to apply skill points!

I also find that the new skill requirements page on the ship pages is very busy with no key as to what colour/box means what. I am not sure that the blue boxes work particularly well as you can just see the required skill level with the numbers?

It took me a while to figure that I first need to delete my currently (un-)training Omega skill by killing it THEN pressing the "start" button before I could actually add some of the alpha skills I didn't have capped.


regards
Duke Garland
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
SLYCE Pirates
#22 - 2016-10-12 12:47:13 UTC
Duke Garland wrote:
Valencia Blackheart wrote:
I am not sure if it is just my client, but the new skill queue will only allow me to add one skill to train as it deletes all of the others whenever I close the window/press pause/try to apply skill points!

I also find that the new skill requirements page on the ship pages is very busy with no key as to what colour/box means what. I am not sure that the blue boxes work particularly well as you can just see the required skill level with the numbers?

It took me a while to figure that I first need to delete my currently (un-)training Omega skill by killing it THEN pressing the "start" button before I could actually add some of the alpha skills I didn't have capped.


regards
Duke Garland

I got a omega skill still counting down on one of my clients as long as I don't hit start It looks like it will continue to train. Not sure if this is intended.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Valencia Blackheart
Epicentre Syndicate
The Singularity.
#23 - 2016-10-12 12:55:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Valencia Blackheart
Salpun wrote:
Duke Garland wrote:
Valencia Blackheart wrote:
I am not sure if it is just my client, but the new skill queue will only allow me to add one skill to train as it deletes all of the others whenever I close the window/press pause/try to apply skill points!

I also find that the new skill requirements page on the ship pages is very busy with no key as to what colour/box means what. I am not sure that the blue boxes work particularly well as you can just see the required skill level with the numbers?

It took me a while to figure that I first need to delete my currently (un-)training Omega skill by killing it THEN pressing the "start" button before I could actually add some of the alpha skills I didn't have capped.


regards
Duke Garland

I got a omega skill still counting down on one of my clients as long as I don't hit start It looks like it will continue to train. Not sure if this is intended.


My previous issue makes sense now that I am Alpha as they can queue only one skill up to 24 hours, but it was happening before the sever restart, when I was apparently Omega, so who knows Roll

But I do now have an Omega skill that is apparently training in the actual skill window, although it probably should not be!

Totally Inconspicuous and Definitely Not A Pirate

Smuff Gallente
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2016-10-12 13:15:44 UTC
Soleil Fournier wrote:
The vertical text is bad because of the way you orient it. We have to turn our heads in order to read it. Change it to:

A
r
m
o
r

So much easier to read vertically.

i second this
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
#25 - 2016-10-12 13:46:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Nam Dnilb
  • Verticality is for ships but not for GUI elements!
  • Why can't I resize the window? If one could, maybe we wouldn't need the vertical elements.
  • My alpha clone is currently training Capital Reps, pretty sure that ain't right.
  • I am not sure how I feel about the nested info under interactions.
  • There's enough room in the animated band at the top, no need to hide info behind pop-ups on icons. The icons just float there, like they are lost in space or something.
  • [*]Animated portrait seems glitchy, clothes went missing.
Duke Garland
Niflheimr Inc.
#26 - 2016-10-12 15:52:33 UTC
In a loot window (or any other inventory window) items that require Omega status aren't generally marked as such until you mouse over them - is this intended?
TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2016-10-12 17:53:14 UTC  |  Edited by: TigerXtrm
Why do Omega state characters still see all the restrictions, yellow outlines, yellow skill levels, all that stuff? As someone who is subscribed all year round this is highly annoying. As an Omega character I have no business seeing all that stuff and it just gets in the way.

I've been pretty vocal against having a toggle button for everything in EVE, but in this case I think it's fairly justified. Can we at least get a toggle button so Omega characters can choose if they want to see the visual restrictions in the UI? Or better yet, just remove it completely for Omega characters.

Edit: Whoops, I completely missed the part about SISI being locked in Alpha state. My bad. Can I assume that the yellow UI elements will be (largely) absent from the Omega UI?

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Xioden Acap
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2016-10-12 18:06:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Xioden Acap
Duke Garland wrote:


Or just do it sideways which is (I know I've said it before) far more natural to read and also fits a LOT better with the rest of the UI - here's hoping you don't plan more of that verticalism. While I enjoy that on my spaceships I'm *not* japanese and as such favor reading my UI teXt in a horizontal manner: http://i.imgur.com/PHR46Ux.png

regards
Duke Garland


That's a lot easier to read. They could also possibly toy around with the categories as a column down the left side with the skills to the right of them in two columns instead of the current three.

Say no to pointlessly vertical text.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#29 - 2016-10-12 18:35:12 UTC
please add an opt out in form of "show alpha capabilities for omegas"

I do understand that it is very useful to know what you can do in eve as omega, if you are an alpha and consider to upgrade. I do also understand that it is important to know as for example a recruiter what a alpha clone can fly, but for the rest of us please allow to get rid of the visualization of the alpha downgrade in UI, skill restrictions, inventory color coding etc. We only need it if we are alpha.

Tbh i would even consider making it opt-in and keep it off by default.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#30 - 2016-10-12 20:09:17 UTC
I'm still not fond of the vertical labels. I would really, really much prefer it to be horizontal, probably akin to something like this (please, don't judge it based on my Photoshop I skills; I'm an author, not an artist). Not only is it easier to read, it also provides more vertical space for the information that really matters (namely, the skills in each group, and your queued skills).

Also, the black slash mark on skills you've trained, but can't use (seen here) clutter the boxes up. Considering those skills are already differentiated from other skills using the same gold color that other Omega aspects use, you can probably safely do away with the black slash to make the list less busy.
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
#31 - 2016-10-12 23:08:55 UTC
With the new Character Sheet it is nearly impossible to see how many skills your unallocated SP will cover if you are to use it. There seems to be no indication. Also all of the skills are listed in time, where the SP is listed in quantity. This makes decisions about Skill Injectors very difficult.
Kopaka Newton
Sanctuary of Shadows
Dock Workers
#32 - 2016-10-13 01:43:29 UTC
My biggest concern right now is that it's a lot harder to see quickly what are the requirements for something: http://i.imgur.com/7Qasp1m.png

I feel the colors and icons in the old requirement tab a lot easier to read with red, yellow and blue. If you want to show the player what lever of skill they need/ have, the method currently on sisi is very confusing and esoteric, almost http://i.imgur.com/hSbBpXB.png

Versus what I would use on TQ to see what level I'm at: http://i.imgur.com/SJ1zsts.png
Manic Velocity
Bank Robbers
#33 - 2016-10-13 02:02:17 UTC

  • You need to stop pushing Omega upgrades in the UI. I guarantee you this will leave a bad taste in Alpha players mouths when they're constantly reminded of what they can't use. I've seen other games use similar UI elements and it is always a point of contention. Always.
  • Is there a reason that the skill window layout was made horizontal, when the content lends itself so much better to the standard vertical layout we're used to? This is especially painful because it is the only tab in the character sheet that uses this horizontal layout. All the other tabs have a vertical layout and are a breeze to navigate.
  • Character rendering in character sheet - Nice eye candy, functionality useless to look at a rendered two-thirds of my face. Anti-aliasing settings seem to have no effect on the render.


Seriously CCP, drop the "Upgrade to Omega" all over the place. It will not be well received.

"The most punchable face in New Eden."

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Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#34 - 2016-10-13 02:53:50 UTC
Manic Velocity wrote:

You need to stop pushing Omega upgrades in the UI. I guarantee you this will leave a bad taste in Alpha players
...
Seriously CCP, drop the "Upgrade to Omega" all over the place. It will not be well received.

I've actually stopped noticing the push to upgrade after a bit of time playing with it. This isn't a good thing, though, as it's largely due to Banner Blindness. The push to upgrade comes frequently enough that I simply stopped seeing it.

Whether the process was hastened or not by the knowledge that it's temporary for me, and that I can return to TQ to have a full experience again, I can't say, but it's certainly vanished from my mind in normal usage.

I suspect it'll require a lot of little changes to find the right balance between the push to upgrade and not missing it, or worse, becoming a nuisance. I certainly don't envy the job of the UI designers on this one.

Moving on...

Messing around with the skill queue more, the pop-up that comes up with the skill you're currently hovering over is causing more trouble for me than it's helping. If you mouse over something, it seems to pop up very quickly, so if you were trying to get to a skill above it, the pop-up covers the skills for a few ranks above it, and you end up having to mouse away from the character sheet to get it to go away before you can go back to actually click on the skill you want.

As I play around with the settings, the timing of the pop-up is governed by the Tooltip Delay slider in the General Settings tab of the Escape Menu. Increasing the delay largely removes the issue with the tooltip popping up for the wrong skill, but creates other problems when you want or even need the tooltip to pop up fairly quickly.

A couple times I've ended up clicking the the "Add to Queue" button for the wrong skill when I was trying to instead click on the skill one or two above one that I moused over. Accidentally clicking the "Add to Queue" button may be born partially from muscle memory, as I'm used to clicking the skill categories open and closed, and double-clicking on skills to add them to the queue, but considering that the younger generation have grown up with the Internet, they have a lot of their own muscle memory of moving their mouse around and clicking something rather intuitively where they think it should be, as well. Whether it's problematic for new players, I can't say, but it will certainly give existing players fits for a while.

I've also ran into an issue where I can only Shift+Drag a skill to its next skill level, instead of additional levels with continued dragging. I've already made a bug report on it, but figured I'd make mention of it here, as well, for posterity's sake.
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
SLYCE Pirates
#35 - 2016-10-13 03:10:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Salpun
Is there a reason why the info window for civilian versions of modules don't have a variation tab? Civilian Miner,Civilian Cargo hold have it the shield ones and armor repairer did not.

Also an Amarr character the only skill they currently have at the beginning that is not accessible to the alpha player is Small Hybrid Turret. I think it should be removed from the default skill list.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#36 - 2016-10-13 04:38:37 UTC
bug report:
- my char in the char sheet does not follow the mouse pointer with his eyes
- it did also not facepalm when i hovered over the ECM skill

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Mikkhi Kisht
Vanity Thy Name Is
#37 - 2016-10-13 04:42:54 UTC
Since there's a major push to redo several sections of the UI in preparation for Alpha Clones, I have a request for an addition that's been set to the wayside far too long.

Can we finally receive those customizable overview icon options as we were promised, quite a while back?

Referencing this Dev Blog: https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/bracket-icon-feedback/

CCPlease, I would like that overview option put in place.

Big smileBig smile

>Mikk's Keyboardist

Kronovestan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#38 - 2016-10-13 06:12:58 UTC
Can you please have an option in the UI to turn off Alpha information if we're an Omega clone? I feel it's a bit of a "information overload" if you are already in an Omega. Thank you.
Galandrius Malkin
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2016-10-13 07:37:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Galandrius Malkin
The new UI has some problems. To show this, let's reference this album of images (seen here) which I have captured on my character.

Let's ask ourselves some questions and see how each version of the UI presents them differently: Can my account fly the Rorqual? Can I fly the Rorqual? Why can't I fly the Rorqual? Can I train the required skills, or do I need to buy a book? How many levels do I have already, and how long will it take me to train the ones I need?



First up, the new UI, as seen in Image 1:


Can my account fly the Rorqual? The new UI is very effective at communicating that this is an omega-only ship. There is a small border and an omega icon. Top marks in this area.

Can I fly the Rorqual?
I have absolutely no idea at a glance.

Why can't I fly the Rorqual? After examining the skills list for about twenty seconds, I can see that I don't have enough levels in Capital Industrial Ships, Industrial Reconfiguration, Advanced Mass Production, Mass Production, Industrial Command Ships, Mining Director, and Mining Foreman to fly the Rorqual.

Do I have these skills injected? I have indicated training times, but no indication if I have already purchased the book. From this UI, I would conclude that I do in fact have all the skills I need injected.

How many levels do I have in each skill, and how long will it take me to train them up? I know exactly how long it will take me to train each component skill and the total training time to sit in this ship. Top marks in this area as well.



Compare this to the present Rorqual UI, as shown in Image 2. Let's ask ourselves the same questions, except for the account-based question which isn't relevant to the present UI.


Can I fly the Rorqual? I can see from the red X's and yellow O's that I lack the skills to fly the Rorqual, almost without doing any mental effort at all. It's instant.

Why can't I fly the Rorqual?
I can see immediately that I don't have some necessary skills trained. I know what they are instantly as well. I don't have to look around the UI to figure that out.

Do I have the skills to fly the Rorqual injected?
I can see that some of the skills which I lack are different from each other. I know from contextual learning that I don't have enough levels in yellow skills, but that I have the book since they aren't red. I also know that I don't have the book for Industrial Command Ships, for instance.

How many levels do I have in each skill, and how long will it take me to train them up?
This is the major failing of the present UI. I don't know how many levels (If any) I have in any skill-- just whether or not they meet the threshold for piloting the ship and whether or not I have them injected/partially trained. I do know the total training time, but that is all.



It's obvious after that exercise that the new UI has some problems with readability, but it also brings a lot of useful features to the table. How do we fix it with the minimum amount of effort and the maximum amount of benefit to the end-user? Take a look at my "proposed fix" image (Image 3). Let's repeat the same exercise to see how the proposed fix is better than the old UI and the new UI.


Can my account fly the Rorqual? My design omits the Omega icon in favor of a thicker yellow border. I might pair the thicker border with an Omega icon, looking at it now. That would be the best of both worlds, I think.

Can I fly the Rorqual? I can tell at a glance that I don't have all the skills I need, just by looking at the requirements window.

Why can't I fly the Rorqual? I can see at a glance that I am missing skills and how many levels I am missing from them.

Do I have these skills injected? I can see that I do have the yellow skills injected or partially trained by looking at the level listing to the right of each skill entry. I know that a zero-level rank on Advanced Mass Production is different from the zero-level rank in Capital Industrial ships because AMP is yellow, while CIS is red. Because I can see that both Mass Production and AMP are the same color, I know that yellow means that a skill is partially trained and can be trained further.

How many levels do I have in each skill, and how long will it take me to train them up? I know exactly how long it will take me to train each component skill and the total training time to sit in this ship.



After this series of exercises, my conclusion should be clear enough to you, but I'll say it anyway: The new UI brings some great features to the table at the expense of readability. The old UI is very readable. Combine the two and you have a winning design that keeps the strengths of both the old and the new UIs. You should do that.



Winter Archipelago wrote:
I'm still not fond of the vertical labels. I would really, really much prefer it to be horizontal, probably akin to something like this (please, don't judge it based on my Photoshop I skills; I'm an author, not an artist). Not only is it easier to read, it also provides more vertical space for the information that really matters (namely, the skills in each group, and your queued skills).


I also fully endorse this guy's fix for the character sheet UI. It's better in pretty much every way than the new one.
TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2016-10-13 08:21:17 UTC
Given the track record for the people working on the Character Sheet window for the past few months I don't think we can expect any major changes between now and November. The vertical text is staying in, I can guarantee it. Because here's what happened in a nutshell.

In April I attended Fanfest in Iceland, including a round table presentation that briefly featured the new character sheet as a mock up. It wasn't in-game yet, it was just a photoshop image of what it was supposed to look like. That mock-up picture looks almost identical to what is on SISI right now. There were obviously a couple of people who gave feedback on the UI, among which was at least one person who commented on the vertical text being absolutely horrible.

So to sum it up;


  • Team Psycho Sisters has gotten feedback on this new UI design as early as April.
  • They were told the vertical text should go back in April.
  • Not a single piece of feedback was used or accepted between April and now, despite multiple people speaking out on Fanfest, multiple threads being opened on the forums and multiple threads running on Reddit when the first pictures leaked.


So I feel the following reminder is in order:

To all members of Team Psycho Sisters: Whoever is in charge of the UI design is having a serious case of tunnel vision and is pushing their vision of the perfect UI design through regardless of mountains of negative responses around them. As part of the team working on this it is your responsibility to smack this person upside the head and make them listen to the feedback dozens of players are giving you. This person has had 6 entire months to revise the original design, but barely anything changed in those 6 months. Wake up! Make the changes your player base is requesting before November!

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