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Dev blog: Clone States – Post Announcement Follow-up

First post
Author
Jamella Codetera
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#201 - 2016-09-17 15:33:00 UTC
Buddy, i did read the list. Im currently sitting in the process of planing how exactly i will abuse the system as hard as possibile because CCP does seem to close their eyes upon this.


as a pure industrialist id tell you, its not enough with 1 alpha char, its easy with 2 alpha accounts tho. You realise you can copy/research and manufacture a VERY large range of products? The only limitation is T2 Production

More alpha accounts = more profit. Id say a max. of 2 Accs which i wouldve to login 1-2 twice a month would already earn a plex.

You can produce at the same cost as omegas, just sit down for a second, drink a tea and think of it.

And now answer me, why would you produce, research or copy something on an Omega Account if its possibile on an Alpha Account?



The range of products they can manufacture is HUGE. The range of BPOs they can RESEARCH and COPY? ALL. I didnt find a BPO which an alpha account cant research and copy. Even if there are a few, well, they are only a few.


Erebus, Copy? Alpha Account.
Erebus Research? Alpha Account.


Even if youre a pure T2 Industrialist, youd still need copys to invent from. Guess what - its cheaper if you create alpha accounts to do so.. <_<

Its the very first time since i ever heard of eve that i sincerly think CCP is doing a huge mistake. This really has to be brought to CCPs attention
h4kun4
Gang Bang Pandas
#202 - 2016-09-23 11:09:21 UTC  |  Edited by: h4kun4
Yes some higher Blueprints should be Limited to Omega, maybe like "You can only produce what you can use" for Alphas. So a Caldari Alpha might Produce and Copy and Research only Caracals, Blackbird, Ospreys and Moas and smaller, while a Minmatar only does Stabbers, Ruptures, Scythes and Bellicoses. Omegas should then be able Produce, copy or research whatever they want regardless of what they can use.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#203 - 2016-09-23 14:53:57 UTC
Don't think production is a problem at all ...copy/research was never a bottleneck, and (T1) production needs minerals to produce from and a buyer. The market will have the final word on profitability as production is no ISK faucet, but an ISK sink (fees, taxes).

I'm my own NPC alt.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#204 - 2016-09-23 15:26:26 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Don't think production is a problem at all ...copy/research was never a bottleneck, and (T1) production needs minerals to produce from and a buyer. The market will have the final word on profitability as production is no ISK faucet, but an ISK sink (fees, taxes).




1) Researched blueprints sell for more than non-researched blueprints. And

2) blue print copies still sell for something.

As long as that is the case alpha farms will be profitable right? The value of these activities will be driven down to zero.

What will this mean?

It will mean people who used to do this on a paid accounts to make profits will have a part of their game play taken away. And they have less reason to play.

Will it mean more new players become interested in eve? I think we are kidding ourselves if we think new players will be setting up these farms. It will be veteran players who likely have an unhealthy attachment to the game. They will do this for a while but then even they will burn out. But in the mean time another profitable aspect of industry in eve will be destroyed.

Based on CCP's vague answers I think they really should think this through. Alphas are a great idea but CCP hasn't yet indicated they will make even obvious attempts to preserve subscriptions.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

the Infenro
Violence is the Answer
Wormhole Society
#205 - 2016-09-29 06:17:34 UTC  |  Edited by: the Infenro
I have taken my time before posting my thoughts on Alpha clones. 1st of I am a player who has run 8+ accounts at one time and currently have over 100m sp, without any assistance macro’s etc.. from personal experience you can run upto about 3 effectively in pvp or pve (wormholes etc), maybe 4 if you had something like a falcon on standby. When mining you can increases as much as like provided you can keep up with all the clicking & hualing. (with rocks in hs that takes about 10 mining toons + 1 boaster + and maybe 1-2 hauler(s)… and that’s fairly well the limit. And that’s pushing it.
So basicly (it’s hard to run more than 4 accounts unless you’re doing mining or transport activities).

With that being said two big issues that concern me about alpha accounts

A)
The ability to upgrade to plex’s within a reasonable amount of playtime when maxed alpha cones.
I don’t see many good methods for these players to earn isk if they so desired. For example you can prob run up to level 3 missions, class 2 wormholes if you multibox (if you even can). You would be locked out of incursions due to fleet requirements. And you are locked out of anything near effective mining. While the frigates aren’t horrid... They are still slow and work best for gas harvesting (which is blocked) so besides nulsec or DED site rats? Which would be hard to kill? How are you going to gain isk?

With these limitations it is extremely hard to scale alpha clones. Which is fine. However it’s also extremely hard to get out of that stats without playing (20 to 40)+ hr/week maybe more depending on luck just to try plexing not counting ships etc.
My concern here is that an established player might not want to spend that long to try get back to an omega clone so he can get back to a lot of the content he would normally do. This could detract from people trying to resub into the game. After all a to CCP a plex earns them more money than a sub. Regardless of how you scale it (without specials running); moreover, the challenge of re-plexing could detract from people sticking to the game even if it’s now f2p.

B)
On the flip side as many have raised is the concern of Suicide ganks in highsec increasing. The more alpha accounts you can have logged in the less people you need to pull off a gank (provided they are able to run mutable clients). As well as making massive alt farms etc.

the limits to skills and the extreme truncation of industrial activities to basically ineffective mining and ineffective t1 ship construction. I don’t see a reason to try scaling this. again ganking could be an issue but from personal experience its hard to manage over 3 accounts in pvp situations ganking you can increase that a bit but still have a very small time window to pull it off.

My personal recommendation would be to allow a player to have around 3 maybe 4 alpha accounts logged in at one time. While this would make ganking potentially easier, it would give never players the opportunity to earn isk if they are willing to work for it, and let them upgrade or re-upgrade to omega accounts

Another thought would be that if an account had an omega stats before (IE they have paid) maybe allow for more than 1 or two alphas to be logged in? And increases it to 3-5 range. As a reward for being a responsible player.

Another though is I have seen some people say that if your sec status is to low disable red actions. This might seem to be an effective counter; however, what would stop someone from making their 155th account? I think that it would be rather pointless
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#206 - 2016-09-29 08:13:36 UTC
the Infenro wrote:

With these limitations it is extremely hard to scale alpha clones. Which is fine. However it’s also extremely hard to get out of that stats without playing (20 to 40)+ hr/week maybe more depending on luck just to try plexing not counting ships etc.
My concern here is that an established player might not want to spend that long to try get back to an omega clone so he can get back to a lot of the content he would normally do. This could detract from people trying to resub into the game. After all a to CCP a plex earns them more money than a sub. Regardless of how you scale it (without specials running); moreover, the challenge of re-plexing could detract from people sticking to the game even if it’s now f2p.

You have failed to grasp one important detail. You don't have to earn your plex in a single month. You don't even have to earn it in a single month once you go Omega.
Earn first plex in 3 months.
One month omega one month as alpha earn second plex gaining some omega skills. Sure they deactivate when you go alpha but they stay trained, they don't magically vanish resetting progress.
Another 2 months repeating same cycle.
Now in a good place to stay plexed.

Also as soon as you are in a mining barge, which from full alpha clone to omega is mere days you earn a lot better. Same as into a BC, you might even find a newbie incursion group that will run VG's with T1 BC's, not sure if any exist but they can be run at that level. BC's mission better also. So mere days after you go omega your income can dramatically jump.

The ability to plex your account is also not a right.
the Infenro
Violence is the Answer
Wormhole Society
#207 - 2016-09-29 19:42:11 UTC  |  Edited by: the Infenro
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
the Infenro wrote:

With these limitations it is extremely hard to scale alpha clones. Which is fine. However it’s also extremely hard to get out of that stats without playing (20 to 40)+ hr/week maybe more depending on luck just to try plexing not counting ships etc.
My concern here is that an established player might not want to spend that long to try get back to an omega clone so he can get back to a lot of the content he would normally do. This could detract from people trying to resub into the game. After all a to CCP a plex earns them more money than a sub. Regardless of how you scale it (without specials running); moreover, the challenge of re-plexing could detract from people sticking to the game even if it’s now f2p.

You have failed to grasp one important detail. You don't have to earn your plex in a single month. You don't even have to earn it in a single month once you go Omega.
Earn first plex in 3 months.
One month omega one month as alpha earn second plex gaining some omega skills. Sure they deactivate when you go alpha but they stay trained, they don't magically vanish resetting progress.
Another 2 months repeating same cycle.
Now in a good place to stay plexed.

Also as soon as you are in a mining barge, which from full alpha clone to omega is mere days you earn a lot better. Same as into a BC, you might even find a newbie incursion group that will run VG's with T1 BC's, not sure if any exist but they can be run at that level. BC's mission better also. So mere days after you go omega your income can dramatically jump.

The ability to plex your account is also not a right.


I wrote this more highlight it from an experienced player's point of view who is returning to the game after a brake since they can now "play for free" vs's a brand new player (I did say with max sp aplha's) and that this may reduce retention of these players and primarily those who have played for a lot before if it's hard extremely hard for them to break into that re-entry barrier they may just walk away again instead of getting involved back in the game. and I do agree that plexing is not a right. although i do believe tho it should be reasonable attainable.
the Infenro
Violence is the Answer
Wormhole Society
#208 - 2016-09-30 04:44:34 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Headline: Eve is Free to Play. People telling their friends about it: free to play. Pricetag on Steam: free to play. I'm pointing out that words have meanings, and right now those words are free to play.

Look, I get that there are justifications and clarifications and such to be made - but right now those are taking a strong back seat to the words free to play. …

I'm totally down with a free to play Eve Online, but this move is branded poorly (unlimited trial) and doesn't go far enough to be actually effective (the alpha clones are way too limited).

-Liang


If you're going to argue that CCP exercise better control over how Clone States are marketed, you need to stop using the contentious phrase yourself :D

Free To Play has a distinct meaning in the gaming world, which is that most of the game is accessible to you from the start, but you'll be expending a lot of effort to gain items that pay-to-play players have easy access to. F2P also has the connotation of "Pay To Win" where people with money can basically buy victory.

Does an Alpha State account consist of an "extended trial"? What about a "sampler account"? What phrasing can we use to clearly convey that EVE Online now offers a subscription-free experience that is a limited form of the full game but still has you participating in the one universe with other players?


this model has been done before in the MMO's or do non of you remember runscape? f2p for the 1st 3-5 months of content with a celling on content that you couldn't effectively pass. if you wanted to play the real game where all the updates where you had to pay for it. but it was enough to get your feet wet and interested in the game.
Christopher Mabata
Sentinel Incorporium
#209 - 2016-10-05 02:46:53 UTC
Question:
1 - I know alpha clones cannot train PI skills, but with 0 skills an alpha can set up a single colony without the capability to scan for deposits yes? Literally if i created a brand new alt i could drop a CC on a planet right after i found a ship with 1k cargo which is why with consolidation V you can run 6 colonies. Will alphas still be able to do this?

2. If a subbed account lapses to Alpha status, and has existing colonies, are these colonies locked out? Or are they just no longer able to edit the lines or continue upgrading them but they function as setup? In addition to no longer having access to scans of deposits.

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet

Nosum Hseebnrido
Interregnum.
#210 - 2016-10-20 05:48:10 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
After the big announcement of Clone States, we have a quick follow-up for you.

But before you read the blog, we would like to thank you for the overwhelmingly constructive feedback we have received. Seeing you discussing the consequences, pointing to potential issues, already making plans ... that is wonderful and proves again that the EVE community is the best! Lol

Please check out the dev blog Clone States – Post Announcement Follow-up!

I have question, will we be able to sell our character on character bazar while on AC state?

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Nosum_Hseebnrido

Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#211 - 2016-10-29 23:47:58 UTC
So this might be a little late but I started playing around with the alpha clone skills and noticed a huge gapping hole in the caldari skillset in the form of capacitor emission systems lvl 1.

While I imagine the reason for not having it is due to energy neutralizers and nos, it basically means for the most part the common cap transfer osprey is unfitable. This is extra weird to me because all the other factions gain access to this skill even when its not a mandatory part of their faction logistics.

Please allow caldari alpha's the ability to train Capacitor emissions systems to at least one so they can get cap transfers for the osprey. Otherwise they might as well not even be able to fly the ship.
Matar Ronin
#212 - 2016-10-31 21:35:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Matar Ronin
Solo mining in highsec in your paid Omega account? After November implement opeartion "Code Breaker".

Use two alphas as support for free.

Use the alphas as an anti-gank Cat flying security force, two alphas kiting per each mining ship.

Use the alphas to deploy mobile tractor units.
Use the alphas to deply mobile depots.

Use the drones from alphas to constantly repair your mining ship and up it's hp survival time so Concord can arrive.

Use the alphas to kite your ship so gankers have three targets to destroy before Concord arrives.

Use the alphas to scoop your loot and their loot after the gank of your mining ship, then they lose isk also.

Use the alphas to destroy/deny the loot from your ganked ship before the gank alt bumper can scoop it.

Use the alphas to gank the ganker's neut high sec bumping alt when he tries to loot your wreck.

Alphas may give us the chance to turn the tables on gankers.

Can alphas receive command bursts?

Can alphas join fleets with Omegas?

Can alphas join existing corps and alliances with Omegas?

Thank you CCP.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#213 - 2016-11-01 00:18:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Matar Ronin wrote:
Solo mining in highsec in your paid Omega account? After November implement opeartion "Code Breaker".

...

Thank you CCP.
Unless you plan on breaking the EULA most of this won't work since you can't log an alpha account in alongside another account, alpha or omega.
Matar Ronin
#214 - 2016-11-01 02:33:49 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:
Solo mining in highsec in your paid Omega account? After November implement opeartion "Code Breaker".

...

Thank you CCP.
Unless you plan on breaking the EULA most of this won't work since you can't log an alpha account in alongside another account, alpha or omega.
That would violate the EULA? From separate computers? I had better read that thing again!

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#215 - 2016-11-01 02:41:11 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
That would violate the EULA? From separate computers? I had better read that thing again!

Any method of bypassing the login restrictions is an EULA breach. You are just gambling that CCP won't work it out.
Matar Ronin
#216 - 2016-11-01 02:48:03 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:
That would violate the EULA? From separate computers? I had better read that thing again!

Any method of bypassing the login restrictions is an EULA breach. You are just gambling that CCP won't work it out.

I am looking up the EULA to reread, not a chance worth taking if it violates the rules.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#217 - 2016-11-01 02:56:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Matar Ronin wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:
That would violate the EULA? From separate computers? I had better read that thing again!

Any method of bypassing the login restrictions is an EULA breach. You are just gambling that CCP won't work it out.

I am looking up the EULA to reread, not a chance worth taking if it violates the rules.

For reference:
Clone States - Post CSM Summit Roundup wrote:
Simultaneous Logon for Alphas:

The CSM’s number one focus for Clone States matched the biggest concern from general player feedback: simultaneous Alpha clone logon must be limited. We agree and so we are planning to implement restrictions that keep any Alpha account from passing character select if another EVE client is already active. This will be true even if the other client is Omega. Bypassing these restrictions will also be a breach of the EULA and may lead to penalties and punishments and all that nasty stuff that our security team does if they catch you being bad.


For the actual EULA change see here.

Also I wouldn't chance it personally since there is no language in the EULA stating any part of the agreement is invalidated by moving to another machine.
Matar Ronin
#218 - 2016-11-01 03:03:11 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:
Solo mining in highsec in your paid Omega account? After November implement opeartion "Code Breaker".

...

Thank you CCP.
Unless you plan on breaking the EULA most of this won't work since you can't log an alpha account in alongside another account, alpha or omega.
If Alpha accounts are valid accounts, and certainly they will be, it does not appear to be a violation of the EULA.

For each valid Account you maintain, you may install a copy of the Software on, and access the System from, a single computer or Game platform, and from a secondary computer if you so choose. You may make one (1) copy of the Software for backup or archival purposes.

Multiple paid accounts would be a violation by what seems to be your reading of the EULA. Unless you can point me to a new provision that prohibits paid players from using Alpha accounts it appears to be legit according to the rules.

Please correct me if I am wrong and include or link the specific provisions I would be in violation of. Glad I said it before doing it and learned via the banhammer!

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.

Matar Ronin
#219 - 2016-11-01 03:12:13 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:
That would violate the EULA? From separate computers? I had better read that thing again!

Any method of bypassing the login restrictions is an EULA breach. You are just gambling that CCP won't work it out.

I am looking up the EULA to reread, not a chance worth taking if it violates the rules.

For reference:
Clone States - Post CSM Summit Roundup wrote:
Simultaneous Logon for Alphas:

The CSM’s number one focus for Clone States matched the biggest concern from general player feedback: simultaneous Alpha clone logon must be limited. We agree and so we are planning to implement restrictions that keep any Alpha account from passing character select if another EVE client is already active. This will be true even if the other client is Omega. Bypassing these restrictions will also be a breach of the EULA and may lead to penalties and punishments and all that nasty stuff that our security team does if they catch you being bad.


For the actual EULA change see here.

Also I wouldn't chance it personally since there is no language in the EULA stating any part of the agreement is invalidated by moving to another machine.
Thank you!
You just saved me from making a big mistake, much appreciated. Alpha account can not be logged in with a paid account or other alpha account. The banhammer would have hurt.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#220 - 2016-11-01 03:14:26 UTC
NVM, you got it.