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[September] Mining Barge and Exhumer tweaks

First post
Author
Penance Toralen
Compass Fox
#401 - 2016-09-12 01:22:24 UTC
MrB99 wrote:
Mining ships are not currently spec'ed for PVP, yet they are expected to participate in PVP and that should be changed.


And just what do you think the Procurer or the Skiff are for?
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#402 - 2016-09-12 01:48:53 UTC
One thing which might be interesting on a proc or skiff is a target spectrum breaker:
If there are 20 cats trying to lock on, a bunch of them won't complete the lock. The barge would have to trade a tank mod for it, making it more vulnerable to things like Vexors and Talos, or maybe Rupture or autoNado or Oracle if the barge is nice enough to leave a resist hole.
The other flavors of barges won't have enough hitpoints for that to matter. Nobody's going to bring 20 cats to kill a hulk.

A signature :o

MrB99
Astral Mining
Astral Industries
#403 - 2016-09-12 02:08:27 UTC
Penance Toralen wrote:
MrB99 wrote:
Mining ships are not currently spec'ed for PVP, yet they are expected to participate in PVP and that should be changed.


And just what do you think the Procurer or the Skiff are for?


The quote is from a post about the Mack, Retriever, Covetor and Hulk which are indeed not spec'ed for PVP.

Suicide ganking has become much more prevalent since the last mining ship rebalance in 2012, full time gameplay for players, and due to this change in gameplay by players it may be time that all mining ships need "protection against suicide ganks" as a standard built-in feature where in 2012 it was a niche feature and it needs to scale across the line of mining ships to match today's gameplay. Miners have lived with 4 years where 4 of the 6 mining ships were trivially gankable and maybe the gankers lives have been made easy and inexpensive long enough.

The Proc and Skiff are survivable in 2:1 engagements but the game is moving on to 5:1 to 10:1 engagements - where the mining ship always looses if engaged.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/56044326/ [Proc 5:1]
https://zkillboard.com/kill/55930400/ [Skiff 5:1]
https://zkillboard.com/kill/55951746/ [Skiff 10:1]

Ship Balancing: Mining Barges [2012 changes]
https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/ship-balancing-mining-barges/

In the past CCP has certainly nerfed the gameplay of players who's lives were "too easy" -- just ask mission runners who miss when the Ishtar and Tengu were awesome ships. It's not unreasonable to ask whether the current state of suicide ganking is one of those scenarios. The answer might be yes.
Caleb Seremshur
Naked Oiled Bodybuilders
Parasitic Legion.
#404 - 2016-09-12 08:46:36 UTC
Ok so you feel its unfair when 10 people coordinate to kill a ship that might as well be unarmed, that your ship gets killed.

HarlyQ
harlyq syrokos investment station
Goonswarm Federation
#405 - 2016-09-12 09:31:38 UTC
MrB99 wrote:
Penance Toralen wrote:
MrB99 wrote:
Mining ships are not currently spec'ed for PVP, yet they are expected to participate in PVP and that should be changed.


And just what do you think the Procurer or the Skiff are for?


The quote is from a post about the Mack, Retriever, Covetor and Hulk which are indeed not spec'ed for PVP.

Suicide ganking has become much more prevalent since the last mining ship rebalance in 2012, full time gameplay for players, and due to this change in gameplay by players it may be time that all mining ships need "protection against suicide ganks" as a standard built-in feature where in 2012 it was a niche feature and it needs to scale across the line of mining ships to match today's gameplay. Miners have lived with 4 years where 4 of the 6 mining ships were trivially gankable and maybe the gankers lives have been made easy and inexpensive long enough.

The Proc and Skiff are survivable in 2:1 engagements but the game is moving on to 5:1 to 10:1 engagements - where the mining ship always looses if engaged.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/56044326/ [Proc 5:1]
https://zkillboard.com/kill/55930400/ [Skiff 5:1]
https://zkillboard.com/kill/55951746/ [Skiff 10:1]

Ship Balancing: Mining Barges [2012 changes]
https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/ship-balancing-mining-barges/

In the past CCP has certainly nerfed the gameplay of players who's lives were "too easy" -- just ask mission runners who miss when the Ishtar and Tengu were awesome ships. It's not unreasonable to ask whether the current state of suicide ganking is one of those scenarios. The answer might be yes.

Its to bad you choose to live someplace where you dont get the chance to fight back. Maybe you should think about moving to 0.0 where you can mine and fight off gangs at the same time.
MrB99
Astral Mining
Astral Industries
#406 - 2016-09-12 09:44:42 UTC  |  Edited by: MrB99
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Ok so you feel its unfair when 10 people coordinate to kill a ship that might as well be unarmed, that your ship gets killed.



The examples I pointed to are not 10 people enjoying coordinated small-gang hunting gameplay. This is typicaly one player vs one player -- just one is multiboxing to get an advantage.

In the 10:1 scenario they are 1 person, flying 11 or more accounts, rarely 2 players. They loose 20-25 mil in ships (10 x 2mil) to kill 200mil in ships. It's even cheaper for them in a 5:1 gank.

Their gameplay is:

1. Hunt thru space for targets that can't defend themselves.
2. Fly cloaked fleeted alt near miner.
3. Fleet-warp squad to cloaked alt
4. Lock 1 target, click "fire grouped weapons" on each of your 10 windows. The mental load of doing this is not particularly high, unlike real PVP.
5. Miner dies. Suicide ships die.
6. Fleet warp out suicide PODs.
7. Gloat in local what great pilots they are.

The solo miner's gameplay is

1. 2-10 ships descend on you, go flashy red and start firing, interrupting your preferred gameplay.
2. Try and unlock your rocks so you can then go lock a ship attacking you.
3. Wait for lock. Wait more for lock.
4. Tell your drones to hit attack or jam a ship if you're not using mining drones.
5. Know you have no chance and that concord will be too late. Die.
6. Try and focus to warp out your POD so at least you don't loose your implants.
7. Depending what ship you lost, realize you probably have 1,000 minutes or more of mining to rebuy your ship.
8. If you were doing other similar style gameplay while mining - like updating your market orders, contracts, industry jobs, PI, reading forums, researching new fits, working on your training queue, chances are good you're not trigger-focused enough to react in time and so throw up your hands having lost your ship or ship and pod. Your normal gameplay rhythm is based on how long you can do other tasks until you have to unload cause your ore/cargo hold is full.

If you notice it happening and try to defend yourself you get an adrenaline rush for disappointment as you die and count your loss in your head.

Totally different than the positive adrenaline rush that makes real PVP addictive.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#407 - 2016-09-12 10:38:02 UTC
MrB99 wrote:
Penance Toralen wrote:
MrB99 wrote:
Mining ships are not currently spec'ed for PVP, yet they are expected to participate in PVP and that should be changed.


And just what do you think the Procurer or the Skiff are for?


The quote is from a post about the Mack, Retriever, Covetor and Hulk which are indeed not spec'ed for PVP.



But they are spec'ed for pvp they are just not spec'ed for combat

and there is no need for them to be if you want protection you can

A. fly a skiff/proc

B. work with a fleet


Caleb Seremshur
Naked Oiled Bodybuilders
Parasitic Legion.
#408 - 2016-09-12 11:46:50 UTC
M8 you can't seriously be suggesting that you, a crab, a cow, a grazing herd animal that refuses to defend itself has any platform to stand on when it gets killed by its natural predators.

Miners form part of the food chain: the bottom.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#409 - 2016-09-12 12:00:13 UTC
Amadeus Z wrote:
Hey Devs,

There are things, that could have done better. Hulk and Mack full yield fit is not able to fit all meds which is pretty annoying. I do not see a reason, why Stripminers could not get grouped like weapons. I see absolutely no mining drone boni, what is disturbing as well. At least exhumers should have mining drone boni, cause that is the top of the notch mining ship range.

And what's really poor, that the mining beast of the game has the smallest hold? Even fricking mining frigates have more. Please let me know, what the reason for this "2-cycles-and-it's-full-hold" are. If those Exhumers have nearly the same yield, they should have nearly the same hold - there is no argument against that. IMHO the Hulk deserves a 25,000 m3 hold.

From the stats I checked on SiSi, I see no reason to field a Mack anymore. Just for the hold? Nope.


I assure you that you can fit a Mack for yield and fill the mids, but you might need to compromise on how they're filled.

But if yield is your absolute priority, then you should be using a Hulk.

While you may not see a reason to.use the Mack, it's far more popular that the Hulk. Maybe think about why.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Warlord Balrog
303rd X-SOLDIER
#410 - 2016-09-12 12:04:20 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
M8 you can't seriously be suggesting that you, a crab, a cow, a grazing herd animal that refuses to defend itself has any platform to stand on when it gets killed by its natural predators.

Miners form part of the food chain: the bottom.


Really? What source provided your ship? The ship fairy? Ya know, it's times like this I wish all miners would wake up, realize we're EVE's backbone and protest by unsubbing for a few months. Forcing you weak and pathetic so-called PvPers to fight against ships with a snowball's chance in hell of doing anything other than saying "Oh well, there goes 300+ million" and try to save one's pod.

Seriously, can I have a hit of that bong/crackpipe you're OBVIOUSLY hitting?

Vote NO to being a suffering slave 2016, turn in your mining related skills and ships for production and station trading....Let's unite and teach the so-called 'real players' a lesson in life once and for all.
Caleb Seremshur
Naked Oiled Bodybuilders
Parasitic Legion.
#411 - 2016-09-12 12:39:44 UTC
hahahahahaha
you think mining and manufacturing makes you some sort of protected class? No mate, you are advocating immunity for the least interactive mechanic of ship related gameplay. Even links takes more work because you still need to d-scan so you don't get rolled.
Caleb Seremshur
Naked Oiled Bodybuilders
Parasitic Legion.
#412 - 2016-09-12 13:49:16 UTC
I really cannot get over how deranged and entitled what you said is. There are nullsec corporations that regularly run their own mining ops with PVP characters contributing if able to. Even the most rudimentary mining frigate can still put forward materials for building ships.

This has got to be trolling for sure, the clarion call for miners to unionise and stop doing the thing they live off is just laughable. B-5R proved something also - there is so much surplus material lying around that even trillions of isk worth of damage done can be floated on the open market, totally ignoring the thousands of potential supers worth of minerals already set aside for the task in the first case.
Bora Bor
The Forsaken Squad
#413 - 2016-09-12 20:30:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Bora Bor
and than the available versions of shovels are bad??? why to break what normally works and what all are happy with? - I very much do not like the idea to all barges on 2 lasers!!! a sediment - in a fire chamber!!!

http://www.clir.ru/images/photos/medium/85608b362925d2c69e10e9340f47e6cc.jpg Fozzie dismiss those who thought up it and leave itself afterwards!!!
Harrissaran
Blind Leading the Blind
#414 - 2016-09-12 20:38:10 UTC
Well you can drop max mining cycle efficiency by doing away with mining upgrades and fitting a semi decent tank... what I miss are the volume of ore you can carry..... :/
BOP B OTCTABKE
Suspicious Logistics
Red Alliance
#415 - 2016-09-12 20:54:16 UTC
Что за шляпа? Оставьте лопаты в покое! Пусть будет как есть сейчас!
Daniel Jackson
Universal Exos
#416 - 2016-09-12 21:42:20 UTC
can u give us a break down basicaly sayign how much ice and ore it mines per houre like you did in a old devblog when u made mining barge changes
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#417 - 2016-09-12 21:43:07 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:


why should your solo mack be able to fend off 3 other ships on its own? if you want that use the barge specked for it

and if you don't want the ore hold then again... don't use the mac that is no reason to nerf the hold for ppl willing to use it

But it can't. Being able to last the tiny timer on a suicide gank is not 'fending off 3 other ships on it's own'. It's surviving 10-20 seconds before the super hotdrop arrives to defend you. Regardless of the rest of the argument lets not use fake benchmarks to try and make a point.


... could also be your friends doesn't need to be concord



im kind of curious about friends that are willing to sit around for 4 hours every day (or however long people are infact mining) and have reactions times faster then concord. give it 30 seconds even,

I know you are implying something something nullsec protected pipes, but wh still exist, and unless you are specifically baiting in a proc, i dont think ive ever seen any sort of response fleet arrive faster then concord.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#418 - 2016-09-12 21:55:45 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

why should your solo mack be able to fend off 3 other ships on its own?

But it can't. Being able to last the tiny timer on a suicide gank is not 'fending off 3 other ships on it's own'. It's surviving 10-20 seconds before the super hotdrop arrives to defend you.

... could also be your friends doesn't need to be concord


im kind of curious about friends that are willing to sit around for 4 hours every day (or however long people are infact mining) and have reactions times faster then concord. give it 30 seconds even,

I know you are implying something something nullsec protected pipes, but wh still exist, and unless you are specifically baiting in a proc, i dont think ive ever seen any sort of response fleet arrive faster then concord.


That's because "have friends" is just the party line. It never happens in-game but it sounds great and it can be used to deadlock threads like there is no tomorrow Big smile

Before taking an argument on face value, always check if the one(s) posting it knows what he or she is talking about- it'll be a real eyeopener [giggle]
Tina Mori
Maniacal Miners INC
#419 - 2016-09-12 22:23:02 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
I never realised that mining was a highsec intended activity. It's almost as if nullsec didn't have ore and that the ore in nullsec isn't safer to mine and more valuable. Jee willickers.


It is all a case of Market availability

There are all those Hisec trade hubs, ie Jita, Dodixie, etc

Now, show me where all the great Nullsec hubs are

With nowhere to use all that Nullsec ore, maybe now you mayunderstand why people mine in Hisec


Btw, you try getting all that lovely Ore/Minerals back to the hubs, without your freighter being ganked
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#420 - 2016-09-12 22:29:01 UTC
Tina Mori wrote:

It is all a case of Market availability

There are all those Hisec trade hubs, ie Jita, Dodixie, etc

Now, show me where all the great Nullsec hubs are

With nowhere to use all that Nullsec ore, maybe now you may understand why people mine in Hisec


Btw, you try getting all that lovely Ore/Minerals back to the hubs, without your freighter being ganked

Except for you know, those lovely Dev blogs showing how much mining actually goes on in Null sec areas. Hint, it's actually about as much as goes on in high sec. Though hard to separate entirely as some of those regions cover multiple sec status regions. But there is plenty of mining in null, despite your claims otherwise.