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Dev Blog: Introducing Clone States & the Future of Access to EVE

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Author
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1081 - 2016-09-02 11:22:29 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
Velores Prokhozai wrote:
Carniflex wrote:

Might as well just allow them to fly just noobships with civilian modules then. Otherwise they might somehow manage to kill a paying customer, oh the horror!


Why I can't see all those World of Warcraft: Starter Edition 20 level players complaining that 80lvl paladins are better than them?
What we have now is a pure copy of that wow:se. It's not EVE meant to be played for free, it's EVE that you can TRY as long as you want.


Because WoW is a different game. For a start their match making system is not putting those lev 20 "free" dudes up against a Lev 80 Paladins - and its a theme park - aimed more at PVE content than PvP. While EVE is a sandbox. In here if the Alpha goes to try out FW, for example, all these "lev 80" dudes are waiting for him there - they are not separated into their own little corners of universe with very little to no interaction between them. Second - WoW has no meaningful death penalty - you get ganked by a random lev 80 in your little noob zone - no problems stand up and resume doing what you were doing.

Seriously that your best trying to use matchmaking, how about those same SE level 20 wandering over from SW to say orgrimmar and the lvl 130 guards come and smack you down, the level 110 players come and smack you down, Just the same thing but your trying to use the arena and battleground system to justify you pointless train of thought.
Geronimo McVain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1082 - 2016-09-02 11:27:56 UTC
The only real point that I think can be unbalancing is FW. There you can make a lot of money with T1 frigs and they can be used as bodyguards to an Omega toon. Everywhere else the skill caps will severely limit the Alphas but because of the frig restrictions this doesn't apply to FW. IMHO Alphas should be banned from FW that's the only addition that is really needed.
Velores Prokhozai
Sad Frog Space Fighters
#1083 - 2016-09-02 11:51:43 UTC
Carniflex wrote:

Because WoW is a different game. For a start their match making system is not putting those lev 20 "free" dudes up against a Lev 80 Paladins - and its a theme park - aimed more at PVE content than PvP. While EVE is a sandbox. In here if the Alpha goes to try out FW, for example, all these "lev 80" dudes are waiting for him there - they are not separated into their own little corners of universe with very little to no interaction between them. Second - WoW has no meaningful death penalty - you get ganked by a random lev 80 in your little noob zone - no problems stand up and resume doing what you were doing.


So lets imagine
firstly they will be killed at novice beacon by 5 tristans (and boosting tengu ofc)
second time they will be killed by gatecamping dramiel with 3 guardians
3rd time podded by smartbomb rokh
then ganked by catalyst/trasher/tornado
isk doubling in jita?
10 blackops drop on your vexor?
50 titans drop on your keepstar in nalvula?

Now point me in what situation the tech2 guns will help you?
Ginger Naari
Doomheim
#1084 - 2016-09-02 12:26:20 UTC
fluffy jo wrote:
I think the alpha clone idea could be a good thing for eve. It will provide more pilot’s in eve, more life in eve. Some of these alpha pilot’s will be good for eve and some bad.

A Few minor thoughts
Most solo freighters will now be able to have a scout
Every roam will have a suicide scout.
Gankers can have a character ready to go in every trade route.
Every Duel will have a neut suicide logi ready to warp in.
I am not sure if the added pilots will add any quality to eve.

A few minor thoughts about passive game play that may, or may not, have been made.
Probably have been made.

My concerns are really with clone going from alpha to omega, learning skills and doing a job, then dropping back to alpha.
PI . learn 5+ planets with good command center while an omega and then going to alpha. Can they control 5+ planets and can they control a good command center? I would hope only 1 planets, and cannot control a good command center.

Manufacturer and Science jobs that have been learnt while at omega and have submitted 10+ jobs and then going to alpha. Can they then deliver the jobs which they don’t have skills to submit? I would hope they cant deliver any jobs they don’t have skills to submit.

This could be any tech 2 job or 6 month research job

This is also really important for long time research jobs, as this will kill the copy business of high send BPO’s, particularly on long time research like capital or structure ME etc.

Although to submit a 2nd time the account will need to be an omega again. And you could sort of do this now on a 2nd account, but this just makes it so much easier.

This clone change could be good or bad.
Lots of these alpha pvp pilots will leave as they will be outgunned I fear.


Cheers



I get what you are saying.

PI should scale down if someone drops to an Alpha state after skilling up as an Omega, if they have unsubbed the jobs should drop to what's allowed as an Alpha, if that means their PI stops, fine.

Indy, same, if someone has skilled up to run 10 science/research slots and then they drop to Alpha state the jobs should stop until Omega state is applied again. Why should anyone expect jobs or PI to continue if they aren't subbed? The skill queue doesn't.

This might happen now anyway, I'm not sure.

Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
#1085 - 2016-09-02 12:37:25 UTC
I wonder what effect this will have on the balance between large and small alliances?

A small alliance can swarm alphas. But a big alliance can swarm even more alphas. ...

If alphas are used as system watchers in null, I can imagine finding 10 or 20 characters visible in every "empty" system I fly through. Making it impossible to know if a system has actually got gankers in it or not.
Elinara Yamamoto
Latex Entosis
Insignificant Others
#1086 - 2016-09-02 12:44:00 UTC
Should only be able to log in one of them at a time per player, also I do think they should not be allowed to log in if you have a subscribed character logged in, if you want to have 2 chars active, pay 2 subscriptions... otherwise people will feel compelled to have that Vexor alt or whatever free alt to help their main...

And that means they are sort of psychologically pavloved into dualboxing even if thats not their thing... thats what I dislike.

I do not really see a problem if those 2 restrictions are in place together with the other currently mentioned restrictions!
Marsha Mallow
#1087 - 2016-09-02 12:45:26 UTC
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:
I wonder what effect this will have on the balance between large and small alliances?

This is actually a decent question. Whilst concern over wardecs and the state of highsec might be valid, there are large scale, well-established groups who are probably strategising right now how to deal with a major influx of new players. Think E-Uni, Brave, Test, Horde, KF, Signal Cartel, NPSI groups. If representatives from these groups are invited to talk to CCP direct about the NPE it might be possible to swipe a good chunk of Alphas out of highsec at client launch and bypass some of the highsec issues.

Now might be a really good time to consider allowing players to select player corporations during the NPE, provided some of the more rowdy groups are marked up clearly as adult groups whose forums/chat channels are not moderated by CCP. The worst option here would be to see a successful marketing drive bring in loads of new players who are not retained because of existing NPE problems, or to see NPC corps balloon even higher, and a wholly new set of problems emerge.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Absolute Intoleranto
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1088 - 2016-09-02 12:46:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Absolute Intoleranto
People love to complain about everything.

First things first.
If this will/can increase the amount of active players, than its something positive.

Of course EVE wouldnt be EVE, if people wouldnt think about the possibility of abuse.
But that is always given.

Some people complain about the limitation of the "Alpha clone". Saying that "They wouldnt feel equal to the Omega clones.".
Silly, thats not the purpose of the Alpha clones.

EVE is different in terms of progressing, but it had the same trial system like other mmos and that was a problem.
This new system fits in very well!
Newbies are no longer restricted to 14/21 day trials anymore. (Do or die trying would be a better name)
They have all the time they need to learn the game and to get to the fun/interesting parts.

I like the idea that subscribers also benefit from that change. Even though it feels like CCP tries to appease us subscribers that way. In my case that totaly worked.X

Think about it, if you ever come to the point, where you cant or dont want to pay the subscription for a month or two, you still can play the game. Yes, you/we would be limited. But in the current state of the game you wouldnt be able to play at all.

I think thats great!

Intoleranto
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#1089 - 2016-09-02 13:12:28 UTC
Velores Prokhozai wrote:

So lets imagine
firstly they will be killed at novice beacon by 5 tristans (and boosting tengu ofc)
second time they will be killed by gatecamping dramiel with 3 guardians
3rd time podded by smartbomb rokh
then ganked by catalyst/trasher/tornado
isk doubling in jita?
10 blackops drop on your vexor?
50 titans drop on your keepstar in nalvula?

Now point me in what situation the tech2 guns will help you?


6 months down the road when you manage to grab that lone fleet firetail in your own fleet firetail. Assuming the Alpha manages to survive that far. However, removing that possibility ensures that no Alpha with two braincells to rub together will stick around long enough for that. Why spend the effort when you can not compete even theoretically against pay to win dudes.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Arcturus Ursidae
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#1090 - 2016-09-02 13:13:45 UTC
Geronimo McVain wrote:
The only real point that I think can be unbalancing is FW. There you can make a lot of money with T1 frigs and they can be used as bodyguards to an Omega toon. Everywhere else the skill caps will severely limit the Alphas but because of the frig restrictions this doesn't apply to FW. IMHO Alphas should be banned from FW that's the only addition that is really needed.


Thing is more characters participating in FW can only be good for it free or not.

One of the questions is though whether the alpha skill base is high enough to compete even in a frigate fight.

It's some of the poor mechanics that need to change to tone down farming. Hopefully CCP sees this.
Mike Adoulin
Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters
CODE.
#1091 - 2016-09-02 13:14:51 UTC
Absolute Intoleranto wrote:
good stuff

She gets it.

You get a cookie.


I see this as just a new version of the trial account with an unlimited play timer as opposed to 2-3 weeks.

And as for 'limiting' them to Green safety...that has to be the dumbest thing I ever heard of.

If they want to gank...or move to low and be a Horrible Person.....let them. If they want to FW...let them.


Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.

Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#1092 - 2016-09-02 13:37:36 UTC
Please give Alpha clones the ability to train Warp Drive Operation past level 3. Anyone who has made a new character can hopefully sympathize with how frustrating it is to constantly run out of cap on even fairly short warps. This certainly isn't helped by the level 3/4 capacitor support skills either.

I would really recommend that they get that ability to train it to 5, but even to 4 would be a great quality of life change for Alpha accounts. Taking 3-5x the time for long warps than a better trained character while waiting for your cap to slowly recharge from 0% is not any sort of compelling game mechanic. I'm actually not sure if an alpha account would actually be able to roam with Omegas at all since their overall travel time is so much longer.
Geronimo McVain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1093 - 2016-09-02 13:41:53 UTC
Arcturus Ursidae wrote:
Geronimo McVain wrote:
The only real point that I think can be unbalancing is FW. There you can make a lot of money with T1 frigs and they can be used as bodyguards to an Omega toon. Everywhere else the skill caps will severely limit the Alphas but because of the frig restrictions this doesn't apply to FW. IMHO Alphas should be banned from FW that's the only addition that is really needed.


Thing is more characters participating in FW can only be good for it free or not.

One of the questions is though whether the alpha skill base is high enough to compete even in a frigate fight.

It's some of the poor mechanics that need to change to tone down farming. Hopefully CCP sees this.

Not on their own but you can blop with many of them as bodyguards or use them as fire-and-forget runners. FW System is the only System where frigs really count due to the size restriction.
In shattered wormholes their inability to cloak will make them easy prey
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#1094 - 2016-09-02 13:52:46 UTC
Mike Adoulin wrote:
Absolute Intoleranto wrote:
good stuff


And as for 'limiting' them to Green safety...that has to be the dumbest thing I ever heard of.

If they want to gank...or move to low and be a Horrible Person.....let them. If they want to FW...let them.




Yellow safety in high sec is in my eyes a prerequisite for this program. The key words there being "in high sec only". I don't think anyone is arguing that Alpha characters shouldn't be allowed to go suspect in highsec or criminal everywhere else.

If red safety is allowed everywhere say hello to literally endless of free to play thrashers/catalysts on every major travel route popping every pod, shuttle, noobship, and flimsy frigate they see just for the hell of it. There's almost zero investment required besides the time sink of making an account and queuing a few skills, and that means that the accounts can just be trashed once the sec status is ruined.

As for the argument that "suicide ganking is just part of the game", there are many more facets of the game that Alpha accounts are limited from including cloaking, cynos, t2 ships/weapons, etc. All of those limitations are done for the health of the game on the whole, and I fail to see the difference here.
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1095 - 2016-09-02 14:15:39 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
Velores Prokhozai wrote:

So lets imagine
firstly they will be killed at novice beacon by 5 tristans (and boosting tengu ofc)
second time they will be killed by gatecamping dramiel with 3 guardians
3rd time podded by smartbomb rokh
then ganked by catalyst/trasher/tornado
isk doubling in jita?
10 blackops drop on your vexor?
50 titans drop on your keepstar in nalvula?

Now point me in what situation the tech2 guns will help you?


6 months down the road when you manage to grab that lone fleet firetail in your own fleet firetail. Assuming the Alpha manages to survive that far. However, removing that possibility ensures that no Alpha with two braincells to rub together will stick around long enough for that. Why spend the effort when you can not compete even theoretically against pay to win dudes.

Is there something you don't quite grasp with the game has always been a subscription base model, If it was free to play then added " Golden ammo " or with a paid version you now get XYZ that is pay to win, This however is a free extension to the existing sub based game.

As a subscriber we have gained access to use expired accounts, old players can check it out without subbing, as a new player they get to experience the whole game without time constraints and more skill points than a standard trial. If they wish to continue as Alpha's its free if they want to experience everything they have the choice to convert to Omega state. This is not Pay to Win.
Mynxee
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#1096 - 2016-09-02 14:16:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Mynxee
I have not read this entire thread (should have time for that today) but my biggest concern is the impact the clone states change will have on newbro friendly corps like Signal Cartel. Based on how we do things:


  • It will be more difficult to identify long-term inactives. The sub status we can currently see via API will be meaningless and I reckon will go away? Clone states will not be visible via API and anyway are not an indication by themselves of inactivity. We actively purge long-term inactives so it appears we'll have to find other methods to identify them.

  • Corp contracts, which we use to supply our new players with basic stuff (because abuse is visible as opposed to a shared hangar which offers no view into who took what), are out of reach of Alpha clones. This has always been true for trial accounts and has always been vexing but at least those were shorter-lived. The problem is that Alphas will require much longer term "hands on" support in stations from members who can grab what's on corp contracts and trade it directly to them. This is a bit of a challenge for an exploration corp whose members are all over Bob's creation at any given moment. It has often left our Trial account members frustrated and I reckon for new player Alphas, the same will be true but even more so. Any chance of permitting Alpha clones to accept Corp Contracts, even if all other Contract restrictions remain (maybe only after they've subbed at least once in that account's history)?


These are just two mechanics-related impacts I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure more will occur to me. It makes me wonder whether the dev team has considered the impact of the clone state change on common practices used in corps like mine to help newbros get a good start in the game.

Lost in space, looking for sigs...

Blog: Cloaky Wanderer

James Duadoulin
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#1097 - 2016-09-02 14:21:00 UTC  |  Edited by: James Duadoulin
Teckos Pech wrote:
James Duadoulin wrote:



3 alts on 3 different computers is fairly easy when they are only scouts. (and you could also train them up on drones and have them assign drones to your main. its a force multiplier. ratting HAVENS in 2-3 min by virtue of 20 drones following your commands. granted they are T1 but you can still faction fit those vexors. once the drones are assigned the otehr accounts requre no input except for monitoring ship hp and drone health levels.

go into wormhole scan down all wh exits pop your alts 1000km off of each hole. you have instant feedback if anyone enters system
same thing that used to be done with cloaky camera alts except its live and they are actually vulnerable since they cant cloak.



That's true, but when that bad guy comes and lands in your sanctum.... you are pretty much stuck there or you will lose 1-3 of your ratting vexors. And once that happened, if it were me, I'd be coming back regularly to pay you a visit. Big smile


i already use 3 paid vexors dude it is not hard to get out when someone comes into system.

and since the drones are only t1 its negligible to lose them.
fleet warp is the bomb

now doing it in domies is sure to lose at least one cuz they warp soooo slow

you market guys should probably be buying up Gnosis ships. cuz it looks like that will be the most powerful ship an alpha can fly.
i'm just guessing but a few months into the alpha state thing the price on those ships might double or tripple because of demand.
anyone got a guess?
Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
#1098 - 2016-09-02 14:33:37 UTC
As I didn't read everything (don't have time to yet), what will happen to buddy invite advantage (+7d trial currently to new player) as there won't be anymore trial with that system ?

Will there be an advantage to people coming and playing eve through buddy invite ? Or will the only one just be the +30d/plex reward if subscribe (clone omega) ?

EsiPy - Python 2.7 / 3.3+ Swagger Client based on pyswagger for ESI

Egsise
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1099 - 2016-09-02 15:54:57 UTC
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:
ok guys thing is really simple here:

single scenario:

you have newcommer alpha clone player, he hooks up into the game and at some point decides to.. lets say go for some low sec PvP

so he grabs his t1 desroyer, fit it with t1 fit, maybe if was lucky to receive proper instruction he'll load it with factional ammo [he should have access to that, right?]

so he goes to the lowsec, and is utterly anihilated by the very first assault frig he meets, or even better a tactical destroyer

he looks up the ship that pwned him and realise that looking by numbers, that ship is superior to his - now blown to pieces t1 dessie. also he realises that he cannot use it until he pays real money [or farm for plex]

at this point possibility of two possible outcomes can emerge:

if he started playing game believing EvE has turned f2p, [which is possible for th moment being considering all the press forgetting actuall definitions of stuff and not-so-straight-way-of-CCP-saying-things] he WILL find it extremely p2w [let us remember we talk here about 100% fresh player with decent ability to use his brain]

the other case - if he was for the whole time fully aware that alpha clone is nothing more than trial account wihout time limit slapped ontop of it, he won't get the wrong idea about game being p2w, will move on and is more likely to consider buying the sub on the later date to enjoy those shinier toys.

What is really important now though is for CCP to properly accent the truth about alpha clones, before people will flock to "now-f2p-eve" only to start spewing crosss the internetz how eve is "p2w rubbish"


There is no way a noob can tell the difference between ships or fits.
Not from Eve.
It might be possible to see the difference from third party fitting program.
But even then it's the player skills that have huge impact on how the ship stats are and how the ship is actually flown in combat.

But I agree that it should be named differently to prevent the poor and the noobs crying Eve is P2W.
Ginger Naari
Doomheim
#1100 - 2016-09-02 16:40:23 UTC