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Dev Blog: Introducing Clone States & the Future of Access to EVE

First post First post First post
Author
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#1021 - 2016-09-02 00:28:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Marsha Mallow wrote:

@ CCP - these complaints in the thread about developer responses being made on reddit seem fair. If confirmation of specifics is being made (such as Manifest's remark that the NPE will be revamped by November, or Fozzie confirming Alpha accounts can use the Gnosis) they need to be relinked into the original blog and possibly the OP here. This topic is already hard enough to follow as a single threadnaught let alone trying to keep an eye on 2 forums because devs are chosing to ignore their own forum. This really needs to stop btw, you are feeding this argument that devs are more willing to engage with potential players on reddit as opposed to their existing customers. It's a bad signal to be putting out.*


CCP staffers post more frequently on Reddit because their brand and reputation have a *lot* more overall public exposure in a venue where they cannot completely control the narrative like they do here. The last thing CCP wants (from a PR perspective) is for accusations, complaints and potential misinformation to foment and go unanswered where they have so much public exposure.

Simply put: Threadnaughts there get more attention because it could damage CCP's business reputation if they did not respond. This is not exclusive to CCP, many other companies have had to "attend" Reddit in the same fashion, lest they suffer bad PR consequences.

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#1022 - 2016-09-02 00:32:59 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:

@ CCP - these complaints in the thread about developer responses being made on reddit seem fair. If confirmation of specifics is being made (such as Manifest's remark that the NPE will be revamped by November, or Fozzie confirming Alpha accounts can use the Gnosis) they need to be relinked into the original blog and possibly the OP here. This topic is already hard enough to follow as a single threadnaught let alone trying to keep an eye on 2 forums because devs are chosing to ignore their own forum. This really needs to stop btw, you are feeding this argument that devs are more willing to engage with potential players on reddit as opposed to their existing customers. It's a bad signal to be putting out.*


CCP staffers post more frequently on Reddit because their brand and reputation have a *lot* more overall public exposure in a venue where they cannot completely control the narrative like they do here. The last thing CCP wants (from a PR perspective) is for accusations, complaints and potential misinformation to foment and go unanswered where they have so much public exposure.

Simply put: Threadnaughts there get more attention because it could damage CCP's business reputation if they did not respond. This is not exclusive to CCP, many other companies have had to "attend" Reddit in the same fashion, lest they suffer bad PR consequences.

While true, they really need to learn to put the information they put there on here, as well.
Circumstantial Evidence
#1023 - 2016-09-02 00:44:24 UTC
Because lots of ppl read various social media, info "out there" comes back to official forums (of any game) fairly quickly.

People on the limited-time trials today can complain that the game is "pay to win," from their perspective. But they face a deadline where they must decide to pay, or move on to some other game. No more deadline.

@DrysonBennington: all "unsubscribed" (unpaid, inactive) accounts will become minimally usuable thanks to the new "alpha clone" mechanics.

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1024 - 2016-09-02 00:45:39 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:

@ CCP - these complaints in the thread about developer responses being made on reddit seem fair. If confirmation of specifics is being made (such as Manifest's remark that the NPE will be revamped by November, or Fozzie confirming Alpha accounts can use the Gnosis) they need to be relinked into the original blog and possibly the OP here. This topic is already hard enough to follow as a single threadnaught let alone trying to keep an eye on 2 forums because devs are chosing to ignore their own forum. This really needs to stop btw, you are feeding this argument that devs are more willing to engage with potential players on reddit as opposed to their existing customers. It's a bad signal to be putting out.*


CCP staffers post more frequently on Reddit because their brand and reputation have a *lot* more overall public exposure in a venue where they cannot completely control the narrative like they do here. The last thing CCP wants (from a PR perspective) is for accusations, complaints and potential misinformation to foment and go unanswered where they have so much public exposure.

Simply put: Threadnaughts there get more attention because it could damage CCP's business reputation if they did not respond. This is not exclusive to CCP, many other companies have had to "attend" Reddit in the same fashion, lest they suffer bad PR consequences.

While true, they really need to learn to put the information they put there on here, as well.

Yeah, and that info should be posted here first.

This is the Official Eve Online Forums, right ?



DMC
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#1025 - 2016-09-02 00:52:40 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Liang, when was the last time you did small gang pvp in lowsec? The preferred ship I've seen in use both by friends I fly with and others I watch soloing on stream appears to be the tristan. They win fights in these ships already with a meta fit. T2 fitting does not guarantee a win. Module tiericide has made sub t2 fitting much more viable - perhaps this was part of an internal roadmap to pave the way for this change?


Almost every night for the last 6 weeks or so? I live in the Amarr/Minnie FW zone (Amamake) with Liang, and the only alt I log into is in the Amarr FW. If you check my killboards you'll find that I spend a huge amount of time flying a T2/meta fit Executioner. The Tristan's pretty good, and I almost went with it. It's a pretty good example too. The restrictions on an alpha account will make me do 2-3x as much DPS and have 2-3x as much EHP.

That said, I've been out of game for about a week (a bit less on one of my altS). I've been taking some time to work, replay Alpha Protocol, and watch Jessica Jones.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#1026 - 2016-09-02 00:53:38 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:

While true, they really need to learn to put the information they put there on here, as well.



Ideally, yes, but CCP has never been good at marketing or the dissemination of accurate, consistent information...EVER.

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Marsha Mallow
#1027 - 2016-09-02 00:53:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Marsha Mallow
You snipped my edit doc, reread the original post.

Funny thing as well, for all that some prefer reddit because of the branched discussions and the way upvotes re-arrange topics supposedly from good to bad, even though wading through topics like this is sometimes a chore all comments are read and all are visible. The fact that some of us prefer eve-o should be respected - it's the forum we've created, for all it's quirks.

Demonstrating a preference for one or the other at a company level might be solid practice in the gaming world but antagonising segments of the community against each other is not. I really don't understand how this can be so hard to comprehend or why it is being so consistently ignored, especially given that the complaint has been made by many of the more thoughtful and constructive posters. Stop treating us with such obvious disdain. Good will is not infinite.

ed. won't keep spamming reply topics, but fair play for answering Liang. I was in lowsec with a group just over a year ago and after being largely nullsec for such a long time I was pretty astounded by just how popular the t1 friggie meta is there - even among high SP vets just as cheap, disposable fun. Plus been watching Rahne and the odd other derping around on stream and a hell of a lot of the time they don't go for t2 or faction because there's actually less chance of a fight if the sensible see an overpimped ship and leg it. I get what you are saying that newbros may take a low sp alt out and get squished if they use a very pared down fit - but it's possible they'd be fighting in a larger pool of similar age/level players than currently exists. There's also dueling against other newbeans and plenty of NPSI/newbro groups who organise low entry events. I acknowledge what you're saying that people who sub may feel a twinge of resentment if they see the trial as unplayable - just not sure if it can't be tweaked ongoing to be as attractive as possible.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

oiukhp Muvila
Doomheim
#1028 - 2016-09-02 01:03:50 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Winter Archipelago wrote:

While true, they really need to learn to put the information they put there on here, as well.



Ideally, yes, but CCP has never been good at marketing or the dissemination of accurate, consistent information...EVER.




CCP Developers should be posting official confirmations on CCP forums as well as any third party forums regardless.

Many players don't read Reddit and should not be forced to in order to get the current official picture of any feature regarding this game.

CCP Developers regularly bypassing Eve Online forums and using third party sites to communicate with a portion of the Eve Community is totally unprofessional IMO.

Galaxy Duck
Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing
#1029 - 2016-09-02 01:12:55 UTC
Agreed. Reddit is garbage.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#1030 - 2016-09-02 01:20:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
oiukhp Muvila wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Winter Archipelago wrote:

While true, they really need to learn to put the information they put there on here, as well.



Ideally, yes, but CCP has never been good at marketing or the dissemination of accurate, consistent information...EVER.




CCP Developers should be posting official confirmations on CCP forums as well as any third party forums regardless.

Many players don't read Reddit and should not be forced to in order to get the current official picture of any feature regarding this game.

CCP Developers regularly bypassing Eve Online forums and using third party sites to communicate with a portion of the Eve Community is totally unprofessional IMO.



You are 3x correct. Doc is not white-knighting for CCP (or promoting Reddit), they really just are that bad at communication and Community Management.


Looking at the bigger picture: how much longer do you think CCP will operate these forums in the same capacity as they have historically when they have repeatedly demonstrated they are primarily focused on obtaining new players, and Reddit provides a free venue to do both, including moderation and features not available here. We already know they are planning another forum "revamp", which in CCP terms could mean anything from replacement with something worse, up to and including removal.

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Toobo
Project Fruit House
#1031 - 2016-09-02 01:41:56 UTC
There's nothing wrong with using another website/SNS/forums to do PR work. All companies do this to reach wider audience.

But when it comes to EVE development/upcoming features/visions/work in progress/looking for community feedback on wild ideas for future, etc, etc, it HAS TO happen on EVE Forums - "You heard it here first!"

They can post 'simultaneously' on multiple platforms - ok fair enough. But using other channels BEFORE posting it on official EVE forums is just sh*t.

This may be a bit silly analogy, but how would you feel if a government minister posted on reddit,

"We are thinking about increasing tax by 200% and cutting down on social benefits to half. Your life may be affected but don't quote me on this - this is not an official press release or policy announcement anyway, it's only reddit, i.e. I can say whatever I want here and this is only reddit so it's unofficial hence I take absolutely no responsibility.

For official announcement of the new tax policy wait for the official government press release - by then we probably made our decisions based on feedbacks from this reddit thread & the policy would have been decided, so give us your feedbacks here on reddit, because people should be responsible and keep up to date with threads on Reddit right?

When the official press release is announced by the official spokes person for the government, you just lay down and take it as we give ya (because we already gave you chance to communicate with us on Reddit).


PS: BTW, as a rough idea, what you guys think about us implementing conscription policy? we thinking maybe 10 years of mandatory service in the armed forces for all boys and girls aged over 12. There are some other issues, such as legalising torture and building nuclear weapons, but we will open separate reddit thread for those

NOTE: Don't forget to follow us on Twitter too! We announce all the important life affecting national policy ideas on our Twitter account first! Also, don't bother tuning into government owned national broadcast TV channel for the news, because all the important bits will be shown on Youtube and Twitch first!"


erm... yeah.... :p



Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

oiukhp Muvila
Doomheim
#1032 - 2016-09-02 01:48:15 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:

...
Looking at the bigger picture: how much longer do you think CCP will operate these forums in the same capacity as they have historically when they have repeatedly demonstrated they are primarily focused on obtaining new players, and Reddit provides a free venue to do both, including moderation and features not available here. We already know they are planning another forum "revamp", which in CCP terms could mean anything from replacement with something worse, up to and including removal.



I would be totally cool with CCP offloading most of the discussion forums to a third party site that was controlled by a entity who does not play this game or could not moderate it in a way to promote their own agenda regarding the game.
I am not sure Reddit fits that description.

But, any Blogs / New Feature discussions or official responses to questions regarding those should be done on a CCP owned and controlled site.


Though I do agree that CCP may be heading in a direction to dump everything they can in order to cut costs. They could end up dumping more than they should, but we can only hope they don't.



Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1033 - 2016-09-02 01:56:47 UTC
Dibz wrote:
Blimey, so EVE finally goes free to play, based on the SWTOR model. Be interesting to see what happens.

Bikinis everywhere.

I know, they don't want it to be that kind of game. That just means it's another sacred cow to slaughter.

A signature :o

Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1034 - 2016-09-02 01:57:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Khan Wrenth
I tried using Reddit once, specifically looking for EvE news updates. And it's a complete mess. Looking at it again right now to confirm, I'd never use a forum like that, popular or not, until they updated their format. It looks like the sort of haphazard web design you might have gotten from a hastily created forum in the late 90's. Indented conversation lines? I honestly hadn't seen that since the turn of the century (except zkill. And it looks terrible and obsolete there, too).

The EvE forums here are nicely formatted, nested quotes are easy to understand and follow conversation, we have backgrounds and colors that are easy on the eyes, and we don't have a ton of high-contrast ads and sub-links on the right side of the page. These forums are, as forums should be. Reddit looks like a virus and trojan claptrap and I already feel like I should be running my AV software because those forums just look that shady.

If devs want to use Reddit, well, I honestly don't have a problem with that. Other people listed good reasons for devs to do so. But there is no excuse for updating Reddit but not updating here where their actual playerbase is asking for information. Whichever one they want to update first, whatever, so long as the other party gets it immediately thereafter as well. If the information is to be disseminated, you can't go around telling complete strangers and hoping that some of them will eventually tell the playerbase. That's like calling your mother to ask how she's doing, but instead of telling you, she tells some random neighbor and hopes said neighbor will call you back to let you know.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1035 - 2016-09-02 02:10:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
One thing I'll note regarding Reddit in particular is that there seems to be more information specifically sought from other sources and shared there. And this in done mostly by non-CCP posters. Tweets, info gathered from presentations (eve vegas/fanfest/etc) and other social media musings seems to be captured, broken down and disseminated far father there than here if it hits here at all (and ironically when it does it's often a complaint about CCP posting it on reddit when it's actually a player who managed a screen grab).

This is of course an anecdotal observation, but given the idea that one needs to be in some way invested to post here, sometime the ones over there act as if things are the reverse.

Also they automate capture of dev blogs so the official forums doesn't even have that advantage.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1036 - 2016-09-02 02:43:37 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
We already know they are planning another forum "revamp", which in CCP terms could mean anything from replacement with something worse, up to and including removal.

Judging from CCP's recent track record, I'd bet these forums will be removed. Just like the Jukebox, Ingame Browser, Evelopedia, Aura NPE and other various aspects of this game.

I hate to say this but it looks like the Die is cast.

Ugh



DMC
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1037 - 2016-09-02 02:53:47 UTC
Wait wat pay to win. Nah joking sounds good I was already thinking to stop paying eve but this well sounds good. lets hoop it is.
Circumstantial Evidence
#1038 - 2016-09-02 02:59:00 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
We already know they are planning another forum "revamp", which in CCP terms could mean anything from replacement with something worse, up to and including removal.

Judging from CCP's recent track record, I'd bet these forums will be removed. ....
CCP Falcon has solicited feedback on a forums revamp or replacement in this thread.
Max Groote
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1039 - 2016-09-02 04:07:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Groote
This is a great change IMO: it actually drove me to resubscribe and start training my skills up so that I'm ready when November hits.

Some specific feedback:
Character sheet: I know this is a WIP, but the sideways text is really hard to read and the grid arrangement doesn't make any sense (also, a significant increase in real-estate required). Overall this seems like a significant step back in UX, but hopefully the final design ends up looking a lot like the current character sheet, which is both nice to look at *and* highly functional. Everything should be listed vertically for compactness and to avoid a character sheet that bloats sideways to gigantic proportions as new skills/skill categories are added.

Multiple Alpha Clones: There absolutely needs to be a restriction of 1 Alpha clone per computer, just like how you can only run one trial per computer right now. If this is not done, there will be hordes of free alts run by existing vets, which I don't think is the intended consequence of this change. In addition, just like the existing trial restrictions, 1 Alpha clone should only be allowed to fly when there are no subbed accounts active (otherwise every existing vet will end up with a scout for free, which would take away from the incentive to sub another account to gain that powerful capability)

Gas Huffing: I can see why you chose to not allow Alpha clones to harvest gas (free gas farming by vets), but with the changes above new players will be able to experience the excitement of gas mining in a wormhole (because it honestly is exciting, active gameplay if you don't want to die) without causing hordes of multi-boxed Ventures to ravage wormholes. One Alpha clone active per computer won't negatively impact new players looking for some excitement, but it will prevent Alpha clone abuse.
Edit: Oh, and Alpha clones should only be able to fit T1 harvester modules

High-Sec Mechanics: I imagine that even with the above changes, high-sec podding will increase if Alpha clones are allowed to do so (why not? It's a free account anyway). In my opinion, alpha clones should not be allowed to switch into "red safeties" in high-sec, but this is something that I would be willing to see tested live instead of changed right now.

Thanks for reading, and great work on these initial changes!
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#1040 - 2016-09-02 04:14:25 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:

ACs on mini ships without barrage are not that bad, scorch is life for pulses tho.


The reason why T2 guns (and to smaller extent tanking modules) are "pay to win" is not because T1 could never win but because if two ships of equal skill meet in space the one with T2 guns is at such an advantage that the dude with T1 guns would be unlikely to win. That this never or ultra rarely happens is irrelevant as the perception in this matter is what is important. If the free-to-play dude figures out that he is at significant disadvantage against paying customer and no amount of "git guud" will make him win a fight against roughly equal skill paying customer he is exceptionally unlikely to stick around long enough to invest sufficient time into the game to spend money on it. On top of EVE getting "pay to win" sticker all over the net discouraging any potential new dudes joining.

It will not be only classical EVE problem but in turn also give worse image to any other projects CCP is up to which are also free-to-play, like, dor example, Valkyrie or (potentially) upcoming Dust 514 successor. Even if in these games the free-to-play model would be well balanced and not a clear pay-to-win.

Some amount of pay-to-win argument can not be avoided as there must be restrictions on free accounts obviously. But if the Alpha dude can fly at least something as good as Omega can one can argue against this notation by pointing out how the playing field is fair in the intended niche of Alphas. Frigates are ideal in that regard as there is sufficient amount of frigate reserved content in EVE to give the Alpha good experience. Frigate wormholes, FW, L4 burners, smallest anomalies and some fleet roles are first things that come from top of my head. Even with properly competitive access to skills and equipment at frigate level the Alphas would be at disadvantage in some scenarios, like, for example, in frigate wormholes because of no access to a cloak even if they would be able to fly, for example, sisters frigate.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.