These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Introducing Clone States & the Future of Access to EVE

First post First post First post
Author
motie one
Secret Passage
#1001 - 2016-09-01 21:45:13 UTC  |  Edited by: motie one
Liang Nuren wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:

As for t2, are we still beating the dead horse of "but you can't play eve without a trillion SP" Really. In FW lots of people use t1. I use t1 for plenty of things.


I'm not asking for a trillion SP and titans. I'm saying that flying a pulse ship without Scorch or an AC ship without Barrage is silly. These are literally going to be pay to win golden ammos.

-Liang


Well, you could put it that way, and yes, to do that would require they invest in the weapons systems as an omega. You are quite right, that these systems only become alive with T2

But

Eve is wonderfully wide and deep, so much to see, so much to do, let them get a full taste, and once their appetite is whetted, it is hoped they will become omegas. Joining all of us in the best game ever created.

Is that a bad thing?
Judaa K'Marr
Shadow Legions.
Pandemic Horde
#1002 - 2016-09-01 21:50:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Judaa K'Marr
Oradric Cube wrote:
Q: Won’t suicide ganking using free characters be a major problem?

A: We don’t think clone states will have much impact on suicide ganking or other harassment in high-sec. But, we will be paying very close attention and if this becomes an issue we can pursue options to improve the situation such as turning safety’s on for Alphas in high sec or making changes to the allowed skills list.


Dear CCP staff,
None of us truly believe that you are actually this naive. There will, with 100% certainty, be individuals that take advantage of this opportunity to create massive multiboxing fleets constructed of mostly alpha state accounts. We all know it, and we know that you know it. We also know that your "paying close attention" won't amount to much. You are willfully ignoring this issue because you *want* this to happen. If you don't design an automated mechanism (IE max 1 alpha per IP, no red safety on alpha, etc.) for preventing abuse then it will be abused. By not automating this you accept, condone and approve of the abuse. Just admit it.


Well you know what to do, instead of just posting, instead copy goons and abuse the mechanic yourself to within an inch of its life to make the protest.

Although I'd say the bigger opportunity was in spying and blue awoxing outside of highsec for anyone recruiting alpha accounts. Particularly of all those newly stationary rorquals.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1003 - 2016-09-01 22:10:28 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:

As for t2, are we still beating the dead horse of "but you can't play eve without a trillion SP" Really. In FW lots of people use t1. I use t1 for plenty of things.


I'm not asking for a trillion SP and titans. I'm saying that flying a pulse ship without Scorch or an AC ship without Barrage is silly. These are literally going to be pay to win golden ammos.

-Liang


No, they're what subscribers have always had. Regardless of the word "free" being used to describe what is factually an unlimited duration free trial, trial account restrictions don't make T2 ammo "pay to win" any more than they previously made being able to train cruiser skillbooks "pay to win".

If CCP had originally launched the game as a free to play model and then later introduced T2 ammo (etc) as a RMT only feature, you'd have a point. That kind of sleazy bait-and-switch is exactly what gives F2P games their bad rep. But what CCP are actually doing is in effect significantly increasing the scope of the free trial offer to their game.

No trial account players are worse off as a result of this change.
No subscribing players are better off as a result of this change.

You cannot therefore call it "pay to win". If you want to make an argument that people are going to call it "pay to win", then have at it, but please don't be part of the problem.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#1004 - 2016-09-01 22:28:09 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:

As for t2, are we still beating the dead horse of "but you can't play eve without a trillion SP" Really. In FW lots of people use t1. I use t1 for plenty of things.


I'm not asking for a trillion SP and titans. I'm saying that flying a pulse ship without Scorch or an AC ship without Barrage is silly. These are literally going to be pay to win golden ammos.

-Liang

ACs on mini ships without barrage are not that bad, scorch is life for pulses tho.
Dani Leone
How I learned to stop worrying and love the Rifter
#1005 - 2016-09-01 22:29:36 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:

As for t2, are we still beating the dead horse of "but you can't play eve without a trillion SP" Really. In FW lots of people use t1. I use t1 for plenty of things.


I'm not asking for a trillion SP and titans. I'm saying that flying a pulse ship without Scorch or an AC ship without Barrage is silly. These are literally going to be pay to win golden ammos.

-Liang


No, they're what subscribers have always had. Regardless of the word "free" being used to describe what is factually an unlimited duration free trial, trial account restrictions don't make T2 ammo "pay to win" any more than they previously made being able to train cruiser skillbooks "pay to win".

If CCP had originally launched the game as a free to play model and then later introduced T2 ammo (etc) as a RMT only feature, you'd have a point. That kind of sleazy bait-and-switch is exactly what gives F2P games their bad rep. But what CCP are actually doing is in effect significantly increasing the scope of the free trial offer to their game.

No trial account players are worse off as a result of this change.
No subscribing players are better off as a result of this change.

You cannot therefore call it "pay to win". If you want to make an argument that people are going to call it "pay to win", then have at it, but please don't be part of the problem.


Agreed, so many forum warriors seem to see anything that does not directly benefit them, but they worry others can benefit from, as pay to win.

But, this alpha free play option seems to me to be win win all round, more players and possibly more subs, and for those who just like to dip in occasionally like 2 days a month, without having to fully sub for the whole month it's a great option, and I bet newbs and vets alike wont care they can't use scorch on the unpaid clone, they'll likely have strategies in mind to try to nullify the advantage, like a good old fashioned T1 Swarm.
Cara Forelli
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#1006 - 2016-09-01 22:30:01 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
No, they're what subscribers have always had. Regardless of the word "free" being used to describe what is factually an unlimited duration free trial, trial account restrictions don't make T2 ammo "pay to win" any more than they previously made being able to train cruiser skillbooks "pay to win".

It's not marketed as a free trial, it's marketed as free to play. Which will make it very pay to win for new players. There is a false expectation being pushed that you can be competitive without subbing.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#1007 - 2016-09-01 22:34:22 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

No, they're what subscribers have always had. Regardless of the word "free" being used to describe what is factually an unlimited duration free trial, trial account restrictions don't make T2 ammo "pay to win" any more than they previously made being able to train cruiser skillbooks "pay to win".

If CCP had originally launched the game as a free to play model and then later introduced T2 ammo (etc) as a RMT only feature, you'd have a point. That kind of sleazy bait-and-switch is exactly what gives F2P games their bad rep. But what CCP are actually doing is in effect significantly increasing the scope of the free trial offer to their game.

No trial account players are worse off as a result of this change.
No subscribing players are better off as a result of this change.

You cannot therefore call it "pay to win". If you want to make an argument that people are going to call it "pay to win", then have at it, but please don't be part of the problem.


See, I would agree with you if we want to view things from the perspective of an already paying customer. But I'm not. I'm looking at things as a new customer. And from that perspective, those ammos absolutely are pay to win. What I'm getting at is that the alpha clone isn't sufficient to bring people into the game. It needs more.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Dibz
Doomheim
#1008 - 2016-09-01 22:47:57 UTC
Blimey, so EVE finally goes free to play, based on the SWTOR model. Be interesting to see what happens.
Dom Analema
Dom's Shaved Ice Shack
#1009 - 2016-09-01 22:58:47 UTC
I agree with Liang's position but not with the reasoning behind it. I don't believe that if the alpha accounts were not given access to T2 modules that that would be considered to be pay 2 win because this is a subscription based game and has been since this latest news.

I feel that it is in CCP's best interest to allow them to use T2 modules so that they can get hooked.


Here is my reasoning, when these alpha players do happen to solo fight another tech 1 frig and come out the victor they will be more likely to get hooked into the game . Also, this will create better content for the rest of the community as these ships will have the ability to be properly fit and flown as to create greater and more numerous engagements across the game. Getting into gangs with these players would be much easier as well because you know they can fit T2 on frigs and dessies. This would create greater community involvement with these new players and help them transition to Omega

What I would limit the T2 modules to are up to the destroyer class though.

Let them have access to cruisers but only t1 modules on them to allow them a taste of bigger ships but an incentive to become an Omega Clone. Because of their experience with T1 frigs and Destroyers being properly fit they will learn that their T1 modules are the cause of their cruiser blowing up and not their skill. Now if they want to stay in the frigs and dessies let them. But eventually this game will suck them in and when that happens you will get multitudes of new subscribers.

This will allow returning players a chance to return to the game and get blown up relatively cheaply as they decide whether to go Omega again or not. Seeing as how they probably have many T2 fitted frigs and dessies lying around.

Steps for this to be successful:


1. Allow T2 on small modules and drones for Alpha. New players will get hooked with the structure of the game moving from T1 to T2 modules and drones, also giving them training goals for their favorite frigs and destroyers.

2. Profit.

3. Returning players can get blown up cheaply familiarizing themselves with the changes since they left. Eventually getting hooked again.

4. Profit some more

5. Some players may stay alpha forever and become frig and dessie Gods. Allow them that luxury for the content they create.

6. Profit some more again.

I am done now.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1010 - 2016-09-01 23:20:02 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

No, they're what subscribers have always had. Regardless of the word "free" being used to describe what is factually an unlimited duration free trial, trial account restrictions don't make T2 ammo "pay to win" any more than they previously made being able to train cruiser skillbooks "pay to win".

If CCP had originally launched the game as a free to play model and then later introduced T2 ammo (etc) as a RMT only feature, you'd have a point. That kind of sleazy bait-and-switch is exactly what gives F2P games their bad rep. But what CCP are actually doing is in effect significantly increasing the scope of the free trial offer to their game.

No trial account players are worse off as a result of this change.
No subscribing players are better off as a result of this change.

You cannot therefore call it "pay to win". If you want to make an argument that people are going to call it "pay to win", then have at it, but please don't be part of the problem.


See, I would agree with you if we want to view things from the perspective of an already paying customer. But I'm not. I'm looking at things as a new customer. And from that perspective, those ammos absolutely are pay to win. What I'm getting at is that the alpha clone isn't sufficient to bring people into the game. It needs more.

-Liang

Looking at things as a new customer should first and foremost make it clear that paying a sub unlocks the full game. That's different from winning. It's made very clear that as an Alpha clone you aren't getting everything there is same as the trial. Functionally a reasonable person should know what it is and designing for the unreasonable is a losing proposition.
Andrea Cemenotar
Elena Minasse Operations
#1011 - 2016-09-01 23:23:41 UTC
ok guys thing is really simple here:

single scenario:

you have newcommer alpha clone player, he hooks up into the game and at some point decides to.. lets say go for some low sec PvP

so he grabs his t1 desroyer, fit it with t1 fit, maybe if was lucky to receive proper instruction he'll load it with factional ammo [he should have access to that, right?]

so he goes to the lowsec, and is utterly anihilated by the very first assault frig he meets, or even better a tactical destroyer

he looks up the ship that pwned him and realise that looking by numbers, that ship is superior to his - now blown to pieces t1 dessie. also he realises that he cannot use it until he pays real money [or farm for plex]

at this point possibility of two possible outcomes can emerge:

if he started playing game believing EvE has turned f2p, [which is possible for th moment being considering all the press forgetting actuall definitions of stuff and not-so-straight-way-of-CCP-saying-things] he WILL find it extremely p2w [let us remember we talk here about 100% fresh player with decent ability to use his brain]

the other case - if he was for the whole time fully aware that alpha clone is nothing more than trial account wihout time limit slapped ontop of it, he won't get the wrong idea about game being p2w, will move on and is more likely to consider buying the sub on the later date to enjoy those shinier toys.

What is really important now though is for CCP to properly accent the truth about alpha clones, before people will flock to "now-f2p-eve" only to start spewing crosss the internetz how eve is "p2w rubbish"
motie one
Secret Passage
#1012 - 2016-09-01 23:30:24 UTC
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:
ok guys thing is really simple here:

single scenario:

you have newcommer alpha clone player, he hooks up into the game and at some point decides to.. lets say go for some low sec PvP

so he grabs his t1 desroyer, fit it with t1 fit, maybe if was lucky to receive proper instruction he'll load it with factional ammo [he should have access to that, right?]

so he goes to the lowsec, and is utterly anihilated by the very first assault frig he meets, or even better a tactical destroyer

he looks up the ship that pwned him and realise that looking by numbers, that ship is superior to his - now blown to pieces t1 dessie. also he realises that he cannot use it until he pays real money [or farm for plex]

at this point possibility of two possible outcomes can emerge:

if he started playing game believing EvE has turned f2p, [which is possible for th moment being considering all the press forgetting actuall definitions of stuff and not-so-straight-way-of-CCP-saying-things] he WILL find it extremely p2w [let us remember we talk here about 100% fresh player with decent ability to use his brain]

the other case - if he was for the whole time fully aware that alpha clone is nothing more than trial account wihout time limit slapped ontop of it, he won't get the wrong idea about game being p2w, will move on and is more likely to consider buying the sub on the later date to enjoy those shinier toys.

What is really important now though is for CCP to properly accent the truth about alpha clones, before people will flock to "now-f2p-eve" only to start spewing crosss the internetz how eve is "p2w rubbish"


I think, most even partially rational human beings will realise from the start that there is a difference if you pay money.
That hardly counts as pay to win though.

But in this world where a bag of peanuts has a label saying "warning may contain nuts" you may be right.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#1013 - 2016-09-01 23:34:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:
ok guys thing is really simple here:

single scenario:

you have newcommer alpha clone player, he hooks up into the game and at some point decides to.. lets say go for some low sec PvP

so he grabs his t1 desroyer, fit it with t1 fit, maybe if was lucky to receive proper instruction he'll load it with factional ammo [he should have access to that, right?]

so he goes to the lowsec, and is utterly anihilated by the very first assault frig he meets, or even better a tactical destroyer

he looks up the ship that pwned him and realise that looking by numbers, that ship is superior to his - now blown to pieces t1 dessie. also he realises that he cannot use it until he pays real money [or farm for plex]

at this point possibility of two possible outcomes can emerge:

if he started playing game believing EvE has turned f2p, [which is possible for th moment being considering all the press forgetting actuall definitions of stuff and not-so-straight-way-of-CCP-saying-things] he WILL find it extremely p2w [let us remember we talk here about 100% fresh player with decent ability to use his brain]

the other case - if he was for the whole time fully aware that alpha clone is nothing more than trial account wihout time limit slapped ontop of it, he won't get the wrong idea about game being p2w, will move on and is more likely to consider buying the sub on the later date to enjoy those shinier toys.

What is really important now though is for CCP to properly accent the truth about alpha clones, before people will flock to "now-f2p-eve" only to start spewing crosss the internetz how eve is "p2w rubbish"


This is really the crux of what I'm getting at. However, it's actually a bit worse.

A few new players start Eve together. They've heard how much fun the game is, and they're eager to try it out. They're on alpha clones since the game just went free to play, and they're well aware of the limits they've got - T1 frigates, destroyers, and cruisers. They spend a bit of time skill training, running missions, mining, and generally seeing what the game has to offer. Then one of them has the great idea to try PVP.

They buy some fancy meta fit Comets and do enough research to know that going into a novice plex will mean they won't get slaughtered by scary T3Ds, T3s, battlecruisers, or capitals. They find a plex with a couple of guys also in Comets. They go in. And then they get wrecked. The five of them managed to gang up and kill one of them, but overall they lost everyone. They go and look at the single killmail they got. Of course. He fit pay to win guns and pay to win ammo.

**** this game.

-Liang

Ed: It's funny, but the overwhelming importance of Scorch, Barrage, and Null will make scram kiting the new pay-to-win mechanic in novice plexes.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Dom Analema
Dom's Shaved Ice Shack
#1014 - 2016-09-01 23:42:09 UTC
#T2forAlpha
Marsha Mallow
#1015 - 2016-09-01 23:46:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Marsha Mallow
Liang, when was the last time you did small gang pvp in lowsec? The preferred ship I've seen in use both by friends I fly with and others I watch soloing on stream appears to be the tristan. They win fights in these ships already with a meta fit. T2 fitting does not guarantee a win. Module tiericide has made sub t2 fitting much more viable - perhaps this was part of an internal roadmap to pave the way for this change?

Also, if being restricted on trial/alpha is a pay to win sign, it's already in place. Massive amounts of skills already have trial restrictions. But let's be honest here, subbing your account to unlock skills hardly equates to 'winning' eve, and neither does going out and selling a load of plex to buy a wtfpwnmobile or millions of SP via injectors. In fact the reverse, if the new player is dumb enough to try buy their way to success. Yet again, this argument was used over the introduction of tradable SP - that it would encourage new players to try skip over the acquisition of ingame skill acquired over time in favour of buying raw sp, which they would then feel cheated over. I haven't seen a single complaint from a new player of this nature since SP trading was introduced, so whoever came up with that one has a bit of explaining to do.

@ CCP - these complaints in the thread about developer responses being made on reddit seem fair. If confirmation of specifics is being made (such as Manifest's remark that the NPE will be revamped by November, or Fozzie confirming Alpha accounts can use the Gnosis) they need to be relinked into the original blog and possibly the OP here. This topic is already hard enough to follow as a single threadnaught let alone trying to keep an eye on 2 forums because devs are chosing to ignore their own forum. This really needs to stop btw, you are feeding this argument that devs are more willing to engage with potential players on reddit as opposed to their existing customers. It's a bad signal to be putting out.*

*ed. I do understand the desire to engage with potential and unsubbed players, but the information being issued needs to be rigorously duplicated or centralised so we can all follow it.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1016 - 2016-09-01 23:50:45 UTC
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:
ok guys thing is really simple here:

single scenario:

you have newcommer alpha clone player, he hooks up into the game and at some point decides to.. lets say go for some low sec PvP

so he grabs his t1 desroyer, fit it with t1 fit, maybe if was lucky to receive proper instruction he'll load it with factional ammo [he should have access to that, right?]

so he goes to the lowsec, and is utterly anihilated by the very first assault frig he meets, or even better a tactical destroyer

he looks up the ship that pwned him and realise that looking by numbers, that ship is superior to his - now blown to pieces t1 dessie. also he realises that he cannot use it until he pays real money [or farm for plex]

at this point possibility of two possible outcomes can emerge:

if he started playing game believing EvE has turned f2p, [which is possible for th moment being considering all the press forgetting actuall definitions of stuff and not-so-straight-way-of-CCP-saying-things] he WILL find it extremely p2w [let us remember we talk here about 100% fresh player with decent ability to use his brain]

the other case - if he was for the whole time fully aware that alpha clone is nothing more than trial account wihout time limit slapped ontop of it, he won't get the wrong idea about game being p2w, will move on and is more likely to consider buying the sub on the later date to enjoy those shinier toys.

What is really important now though is for CCP to properly accent the truth about alpha clones, before people will flock to "now-f2p-eve" only to start spewing crosss the internetz how eve is "p2w rubbish"


And lets further assume he pays a sub, gets into a svipul, and then heads off to LS and....gets blown to smithereens again, now by 2 guys in some other ships he has not yet skilled.....

A sub is not pay to win. It is pay for more access.

And are we really to believe that this will not be made abundantly clear to players when they are registering? I suppose they could just ignore any such messaging, but isn't that kind of on them?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1017 - 2016-09-02 00:07:26 UTC
Zappity wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
I can't believe I went through and read 42 pages, liked a bunch of the replies and quoted those that mirrored my own feelings about this topic which is basically NO, NO, NO.

Maybe I'm mistaken but for some reason I seem to remember years and years ago CCP saying quite a few times that this game would never be Free to Play or Pay to Win.

Within my 8+ years of playing this game, I've seen way too many good Dev's get fired and this game has been hurting for it ever since, especially in the last couple of years. Recently it seems the term 'New Content' mainly refers to graphics being redone or needless changes to UI or implementing drastic changes to game mechanics basically placing rules and restrictions on game play, etc.

Trying to portray the topic of this Dev Blog and thread as 'New Content' is an insult since it's actually an announcement about changes to subscription policy, more importantly, it totally goes against the core aspect that this game was founded on. Course the same was said years ago about introducing Micro Transactions into the game.

Anyway, despite all the objections posted in various threads about this topic, CCP will do what they want. I won't log into the game as much as I use to do but I'll definitely keep this account subbed so my character can continue training skills. I hope CCP will soon see the folly of their ways, come back to their senses and get back to releasing game expansions that produce excellent game content. That is what gains paid subscriptions. Having that content be bug free and not break any existing content is what keeps paid subscriptions.

If not, at least I'll be able to say I was there when Eve was real.


DMC

Why don't you wait for your dire prognostications to come true before quitting?

The subscription model had undoubtedly been hindering EVE's growth in recent years. The market had changed and people are much more willing to spend money for spending isk than a subscription.

Heh, I never said I was quitting. Maybe you should really read what's posted first before making a reply.

By the way, the reason for Eve's growth being in decline over the past few years isn't due to subscription costs. It's due to CCP constantly introducing sub-par expansions and changing game mechanics which only encourages high sec griefing.

DMC
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#1018 - 2016-09-02 00:13:59 UTC
You know what all these Alpha toons are gonna call Omega toons?

Pay to win!

When all these Alpha toons see current players (Soon to be Omega pilots) flying and using things they can't on a free account, and stomping all over them everywhere, they will not think EVE is F2P game, they will see itnas Pay To Win game.

So ironically, EVE will become pay to win by allowing F2P lol.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#1019 - 2016-09-02 00:20:37 UTC
Slowy....Thanks Dryson....I would like to ask this question.

Your clone state will be determined by your account status. Characters on subscribed or PLEXed accounts will be granted Omega state, while Alpha state will be given to characters on any unsubscribed account.

I know what a subscribed account is but this unsubscribed account is rather perplexing. Wouldn't an unsubscribed account be someone that doesn't even interact with the environment? Basically everyone on Earth is getting an Alpha Capsule, correct?
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#1020 - 2016-09-02 00:24:26 UTC
Toobo wrote:
You know what all these Alpha toons are gonna call Omega toons?

Pay to win!

When all these Alpha toons see current players (Soon to be Omega pilots) flying and using things they can't on a free account, and stomping all over them everywhere, they will not think EVE is F2P game, they will see itnas Pay To Win game.

So ironically, EVE will become pay to win by allowing F2P lol.


Yeah its going from "pay to play" to "pay to win." CCP just need to make it clear that they really only intend the alpha to be for extended trials and for when people are mostly dormant from the game. Alpha is not intended for serious business spaceships.

But your post is prophetic.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815