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Dev Blog: Introducing Clone States & the Future of Access to EVE

First post First post First post
Author
Ledo Hashur
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#841 - 2016-09-01 11:01:59 UTC
A suggestion... consider sharding the game..... an Alpha shard and an Omega shard. That would certainly satisfy all the naysayers, such as myself. Smile
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#842 - 2016-09-01 11:04:46 UTC
Ledo Hashur wrote:
A suggestion... consider sharding the game..... an Alpha shard and an Omega shard. That would certainly satisfy all the naysayers, such as myself. Smile

Then how are they to experience new eden exactly, a pocket universe full of cruisers and lower ???
Scath Bererund
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#843 - 2016-09-01 11:11:21 UTC
This is pretty well thought out except 1 thing

I can train a competent suicide ganker on those skills.

You are gonna have to lock the safety to green or yellow in higsec or its gonna be carnage
Crack Spawn
Doomheim
#844 - 2016-09-01 11:12:35 UTC
After 12 years of paying yearly subscription I don't think I'll be doing that any more, I don't think it would be a wise investment......

Last 3 patches/Updates are like sex for the first time very quick and disappointing

Time for a change in management?

CCP staff might be a good idea updating linkedin Roll
Drazz Caylen
Team-Pyro Industries
#845 - 2016-09-01 11:15:09 UTC
Velores Prokhozai wrote:
For example on current 21 day trial you can't put some battleship blueprint to research 10/20 ME/TE for half of the year, because it will stuck there. But alpha will be just free slot for that kind of job.
No. Alphas are unable to learn the skill "Laboratory Operation" which limits their research slots to zero. Allow me to take this as peg to address a wide swath of players expressing their opinions here (so please don't take it as personal attack or insult).

A frightening amount of persons came here and posted things which were easy to answer by just reading the devblog in itself, making it harder for unlisted concerns to be filtered and making it harder for the devs and moderators to do their job.
Another frightening amount of persons don't even seem to know how the game works they've been playing, as skills they had for so many years became just self evident. Things just "happen". Or their perception for skills being warped by their association with words. A common mistake is Industry adding manufacture slots and Research adding research slots. But it's okay, it happens to newbros and Veterans the same Lol
Furthermore so many scream and point at Alphas about things trials are able to do already and could just be exploited the same way, and probably are being tried yet have failed. It doesn't get into my head why someone would think we'd be able to online more than one Alpha per session. Beats me.

These continued types of glaring oversights make me wonder how many people really know the EvE they are playing.

Ledo Hashur wrote:
A suggestion... consider sharding the game..... an Alpha shard and an Omega shard. That would certainly satisfy all the naysayers, such as myself. Smile
The only shard I could see having a profitable outcome, is "Mortality" -> deaths are permanent.
Eve online is not Rift where they sharded all trials to their own server in the past. It alienates communities and makes establishing contact to people you would subscribe to play with impossible.
It's all fine and dandy of people to think all the time how to circumvent exploit from veterans. It's kinda endearing. But if this is all you do, then there is nothing left for a new player and the only barrier left would be "Buy 2 play". Grab Eve for 45 bucks once and play forever, putting emphasis on a bigger cash shop. Which is a much worse idea than Alpha clones.
Hence why it is important to find the line between both which works.

Fedo Otsolen wrote:
THIS IS AN INGAME EVENT. ITS A DRIFFTER INVASION! Bear
Brilliant Sir, brilliant. Excellent. Bravo. I would salute you but I'm busy cleaning my screen right now Big smile
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#846 - 2016-09-01 11:22:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
CCP is afraid of calling it f2p because of the bad reputation in EVE community. Because whales, elitarism and fear of CCP pursuing a dream of cash grab, like in 2011 when Jita monument was destroyed. All fears materialized.

Everyone here probably at least tried some other f2p game. These can be very restrictive on what you can do when playing for free. Sometimes they start just like a glorified, extended into infinity trial with "BUY ME!!!" messages that constantly spam your screen. There are cases (AOC) when company started with this model, and even called it f2p because they thought it will make them more money. With time, company seeing how it doesnt make them any more money and subs are dropping constantly tried to extend freedom for f2p players. Didnt work either.

If you want money, work on core gameplay.
Arkoth 24
Doomheim
#847 - 2016-09-01 11:25:44 UTC
Rendering wrote:
I'm sure this was far more clever in your head...

That's what she said.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#848 - 2016-09-01 11:26:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Kusum Fawn
Drazz Caylen wrote:
[quote=Velores Prokhozai]
A frightening amount of persons came here and posted things which were easy to answer by just reading the devblog in itself, making it harder for unlisted concerns to be filtered and making it harder for the devs and moderators to do their job.
Furthermore so many scream and point at Alphas about things trials are able to do already and could just be exploited the same way, and probably are being tried yet have failed. It doesn't get into my head why someone would think we'd be able to online more than one Alpha per session. Beats me.

These continued types of glaring oversights make me wonder how many people really know the EvE they are playing.

[quote=Dev Blog]
Q: Are there restrictions on simultaneous log on for Alpha Clones?

A: We have not decided whether the simultaneous log on restrictions from the current trial system will apply to Alpha Clones. The decision will partly depend on your feedback, as well as our technical investigations over the coming months.


A frightening amount of persons came here and posted things which were easy to answer by just reading the devblog in itself, making it harder for unlisted concerns to be filtered and making it harder for the devs and moderators to do their job.


If one would only read the Dev blog like one was suggesting to others, one would know that the screaming you hear from people talking about alpha swarms is not entirely unfounded.

The current iteration of alphas do not have a restriction and because unlike the trial accounts one has access to them after the 61 days of the longest trial, any passive isk making ventures will be farmed by large numbers of nontraining alphas totally free accounts to support a main somewhere. Very much unlike trial accounts.

also ganking alts that have no expiration like trials do, who needs cloaked scouts when you can put a noobship character onto a gate, every gate, and one at a safe spot to record local?

it will take a max skilled alpha 17 minutes to fill a venture. i wonder how many extra those nullsec multi boxers will add to their fleets to work on the spud rocks that everyone seems to hate. its not fast for them but who cares when you have a thousand of them?

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Titus Cole Dooley
Fuel Blocks for Dante
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#849 - 2016-09-01 11:34:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Titus Cole Dooley
Uba Stij wrote:
Titus Cole Dooley wrote:
Sad thing is no matter how much people don't like this change its still going to happen. we would have to have a real burn Jita 2 and then unsub like 10k players. never know maybe its just a cycle we will have to go through to keep the game going the way we want it.


There is far more positive/optimistic comments and views on this than you're willing to admit. Mostly because those people actually read the dev blog (reading comprehension is hard for you apparently), and used common sense.



I like how you insult me to show how smart you are way to go man hope you feel good.
Tialano Utrigas
Caldari Minutemen
#850 - 2016-09-01 11:34:40 UTC
What will happen if your in a ship that you cant fly when the clone state reverts to Alpha?
Gregorius Goldstein
Queens of the Drone Age
#851 - 2016-09-01 11:36:39 UTC
Anyone else here that played D&D online when it went "free to play" as one of the first MMOs to do so?
From my personal experience I can say that it changed the game form nearly dead to the most fun I had with a MMO so far.

Drazz Caylen
Team-Pyro Industries
#852 - 2016-09-01 11:40:07 UTC
See, while I disagree with you on many points, and while some of your concerns have been raised by others and counter-argumented as well, the good tone you set up allows me to welcome this discussion instead of groaning at glaring oversights spouted into the thread. This makes me want to comment a lot of your thought-laden post just by virtue of you taking your time posting behaved. So let's have a look:

The several people you pointed out who innately refuse F2P games since they believe they are pay2win based on hearsay is irrelevant. If they don't try it out for themselves to make an informed opinion, they're likely not cut for EvE in the first place.

The P2W debate is as old as Plex and still not convincing. As for how crippled an unpaid account is, I think you project too much requirements for what you think is mandatory to play the game, after all your years in EvE. The debate has come and gone time and again how skilled players in t1 fits have been a match and more for t2 pilots who can't think on their feet, even if you scale it up. Putting the tools you have to good use is better than just believing "purple is win".
You can have fun with t1 in pvp. Maybe it's just not your type of fun.
Highskill pilots using t1 ships to do high level missions is not new. Lowskill pilots doing high level missions in t1 ships isn't new either.

The skill list is much more inclusive than you think. Not so long ago, Trials were unable to even use industrials. Being able to skill to about 5 Million SP with all allowed Alpha skills is huge. It extends the time roughly to 3 months for testing quite a lot of parts of the game without investment before the limit is reached. The key is diversity and taking time to test the basics of careers.

EvE online is a very social game. The people you meet on average have a larger impact on you staying than other factors. Some unpaid characters will stick to the game simply to be around and chat. Creating potential microtransaction buyers. Creating potential encounters.

I believe you focus too much on gear and disregard the pilot. A pilot who is being taught how to put what they have to good use will be a better pilot when advancing to better ships.
It's like teaching your little brother a game and practice with him, telling him the tricks you learned so he can advance faster to be a better playing partner sooner. It's the quintessence of education to have your pupils surpass the peers. If you keep cheating on your little brother and withhold his progression, then you just want to feel superior. A one eyed king to the blind.
Grab the Newbies. Guide them. Make them forge content on their own which you can participate in too.

Your notion of starting races always been cosmetic is factually wrong. Back in the day, creating a new character prompted you a career / background choice. A Minmatar Engineer had different starting skills than any other racial engineer for example, and I don't talk about racial ship and weapon skills. Why else were Achura scientists the go-to research alt?
I see the race limit as an easy fix preventing Alphas from using faction ships without extra coding effort. To date, there is no other restriction than skill restriction. See the Gnosis entry earlier on.

Further I see no issue with different ships in different areas and so called resistance holes. Alphas still can field passive resistance modules, and tank against the opposite of their "natural enemies", whatever that is. Doesn't prevent you from making a Caldari and hunt Caldaris and Missiles can do all damages. But it's a moot point.

Additional paid clone levels between Alpha and Omega is something I can get behind and agree with. It would be a smart business model.

I can see merit to the idea of raising the skill cap but restricting to frigates only. But it reeks too much of "anti gank" and not enough player tease to get hooked. Without a sense of progression and meaning, players won't get hooked. A bigger ship hull has more psychological effect on this gratification than another level of a skill is. It also smells like too much pvp oriented thinking. Look at highsec. If we look at EvE by the numbers, it's not a straight PvP game. You have an awful lot of mission runners too. No matter what your idea of an MMO is or how to play EvE, some people like to log in and just do a mission or two all on their own as they chat with friends and are happy.

I keep reading Safety to green for Alphas and I ask why? Trials don't have this limit. What prevents a dedicated suicide ganker to create trial accounts every day and put in skills in the queue, so he has readily available characters after a few days forever who are more than enough to wipe out ships? Nothing. Let them explore stealing from wrecks and get their ships blown up. Let them explore what happens if you shoot another ship in highsec. Suicide gankers aren't the problem. Targets of opportunity are.
The only good middle ground I see is Safety to green AND yellow for trials and Alphas. Yellow still means you can engage in lowsec fights and you can steal stuff when nobody is around.

It's easy to say how people will run multiple alpha accounts despite the EULA. If you do not believe EvE is doing a good job there, will you dare and try the risk of getting all your main accounts linked to your computer permabanned because you've been caught running multiple Trials on VMs? Blink

Let me close this post by saying I believe you have the heart at the right spot for the outlook of EvE. You seem to want to welcome the new players and be inclusive of them. Which I like. Your concerns and doubts are not unreasonable, and we all have to weigh the merits and the flaws of each idea for what they're worth.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#853 - 2016-09-01 11:47:23 UTC
Drazz Caylen wrote:
Why else were Achura scientists the go-to research alt?


because we could put the lowest number of attribute points into charisma of all the different starting characters. Eve alt autists who did nothing but research and copy.

Drazz Caylen wrote:
What prevents a dedicated suicide ganker to create trial accounts every day and put in skills in the queue, so he has readily available characters after a few days forever who are more than enough to wipe out ships? Nothing.
...
...
It's easy to say how people will run multiple alpha accounts despite the EULA.


one is forgetting the restrictions on trial accounts that are not currently listed as being on alphas.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#854 - 2016-09-01 11:50:48 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


CCP aren't calling this "f2p". Marketing this change to your friends as an "unlimited free trial" might help, because that's what it is.

Incidentally, for those who are quitting because eve is getting unlimited free trial access, what's the longest trial account term you feel is ethical? Obviously it's at least 52 days, since we've had 51 day trials before. What's the maximum you'd accept?

Might as well make it 90 days. That seems to be a number CCP likes.

Forum threads are locked after 90 days.

Epic Arcs can be repeated after 90 days.

Blink



DMC


So a 92 day free trial would be unacceptable to you?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

David Grogan
NerdHerd
#855 - 2016-09-01 11:51:38 UTC  |  Edited by: David Grogan
Brodit wrote:
Okay. I'm down with the f2p aspect of this but your application of clone types is short sighted.

I have 6 chars spread over 2 accounts, and because I like to multi-box occasionally I have spent the last few years giving the alts some useful skills. Cloaking/Mining/Scanning/Combat and PI (I notice that alphas cannot do PI) They have been contributing in their own way to this game, for some, as long as 10 years. Okay they are not overwhelmed with skill points ranging between 450k to 30M sps but your proposal effectively neuters them. The Primary chars will be the Omega chars by default, and the alts on each account will become Alphas. No cloaking or PI and limited everything else. Cheers.

I'm not even sure there is a work around. If alt A wants to initiate PI, do I have to change them to omega clone then set the PI. If I then log on alt B make them Omega, will it halt the PI of alt A.

If your going down this route, I want a 3rd clone state. If an account is active (plex/sub'd) *Omega and Theta clones are in effect.
If an account is inactive (no plex/sub'd) clones are alpha.

Revised States

Omega clone. Active skill training. All Skills.
Theta clone. No skill training. All Skills.
Alpha clone. Reduced skill training. Reduced skills.

That is all.


i think you have misunderstood

ccp calling them alpha and omega clones is actually incorrect and may cause confusion

its actually alpha and omega accounts not clones


in otherwords

an unsubbed/nonplexed account is alpha - limited skills on all toons linked to the account

a subbed/plexed account is omega - unlimited skills on all toons linked to the account

Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#856 - 2016-09-01 11:55:46 UTC
Ledo Hashur wrote:
A suggestion... consider sharding the game..... an Alpha shard and an Omega shard. That would certainly satisfy all the naysayers, such as myself. Smile



Frightened of the competition...?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Juvenius Drakonius
#857 - 2016-09-01 11:57:18 UTC
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:
Juvenius Drakonius wrote:

be able to make cynos?

This is too big of a change for a simple post in a blog/forum this the biggest game shift since capitals where introduced, this needs special attention.....please more info, more details



the amount of ppl that comments without bothering to read the devblog is astonishing - there are two thing STRAIGHTLY mentioned in a blog that alpha clone WON'T be able to do - traiing up [and using] cynos and cloacking devices

EDIT:
Cinders Tekitsu wrote:
instead of pausing training because of an omega skill, skip it, and move down the list to the first alpha trainable skill and carry on. if you get to the end of the list with nothing trainable then pause it.
you could also bring back the old training queue for alphas (24 hour window)... forcing them to log in "every day" to continue their training. that alone might be enough to make it too inconvenient to create a 1 person fleet of 50 alpha clones



hmmm as it was not mentioned I though that alphas will follow trial mechanics here - all skills scheduled in the que must start within 24h window from the point of scheduling



This is the biggest change in EVE social mechanics since sov was introduced, this for all players. Its not a simple re-balancing of ship dps/tank.....this is fundamentally a change that can impact the long investment that many players have made in EVE....since in a way the appeal to EVE was its exclusiveness, its hard game play and in a way its social niche.....this is too big of a SHIFT in EVE just to make it a simple forum post.......THIS IS A TOWN hall meeting in need.

There is no shame in saying you don't know something, and there is no glory in keeping knolege to yourself.

David Grogan
NerdHerd
#858 - 2016-09-01 12:05:19 UTC
if this goes ahead jf/freighter runs will get expensive real fast.

imagine uedema to niarja full of alpha account gankers. no freighter/jf will get through

step 1 bump freighter/jf

step 2 gank webber

step 3 gank freighter jf

lol

Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.

Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#859 - 2016-09-01 12:07:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Andre Vauban
After thinking about this some more, I really think 99.9% of the issues with this idea revolve around people abusing alpha clones to scale alts in ways that haven't been thought out yet.

The way to solve this is to limit the number of alpha accounts belonging to a single human that can be simultaneously logged in to one. The problem here is that people are clever and just using a simple 1 account per PC check isn't sufficient in the days of people having multiple computers and VMs and containers (the real scary one because containers scale much better).

The way to achieve this is really to tie all characters to a human being (name, credit card number, street address, mobile phone number, etc). Make alpha players pay 1 USD/EUR via credit card to verify they are a real person. Make players do mobile phone verification via SMS text messages. Etc, etc, etc.

Then, completely scrap the concept of having multiple accounts. Every human gets exactly 1 account. This new account can have an unlimited number of alpha characters on it (or some large limit that CCP sets for database reasons). The new account also gets the ability to log in a single alpha character (ie 1 simultaneous login). Whenever you purchase a monthly subscription (plex, time card, monthly fee) you get the following: designate 3 characters on your account that are upgraded to omega clone and you get +1 simultaneous logins for omega clones. You can let people remap which characters are omega clones using a timer similar to the attribute remap timer.

Then update the EULA to make it a perma-ban offense for for any human to attempt to have more than 1 Eve online account. The only issue here would be when multiple people in the same household play Eve and in that case there are minors involved so some extra verification is warranted anyway. Also update the EULA to make it a temp ban offense to use alpha clones to circumvent criminal timers or do anything else that you don't want people creating armies of alpha characters for.

If you do this, then you really nip this problem in the bud. NOBODY will attempt to circumvent the 1 account per person problem for fear of getting all their character banned.

.

David Grogan
NerdHerd
#860 - 2016-09-01 12:12:17 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
After thinking about this some more, I really think 99.9% of the issues with this idea revolve around people abusing alpha clones to scale alts in ways that haven't been thought out yet.

The way to solve this is to limit the number of alpha accounts belonging to a single human that can be simultaneously logged in to one. The problem here is that people are clever and just using a simple 1 account per PC check isn't sufficient in the days of people having multiple computers and VMs and containers (the real scary one because containers scale much better).

The way to achieve this is really to tie all characters to a human being (name, credit card number, street address, mobile phone number, etc). Make alpha players pay 1 USD/EUR via credit card to verify they are a real person. Make players do mobile phone verification via SMS text messages. Etc, etc, etc.

Then, completely scrap the concept of having multiple accounts. Every human gets exactly 1 account. This new account can have an unlimited number of alpha characters on it (or some large limit that CCP sets for database reasons). The new account also gets the ability to log in a single alpha character (ie 1 simultaneous login). Whenever you purchase a monthly subscription (plex, time card, monthly fee) you get the following: designate 3 characters on your account that are upgraded to omega clone and you get +1 simultaneous logins for omega clones. You can let people remap which characters are omega clones using a timer similar to the attribute remap timer.

.



i have multiple paid accounts as do many players. by doing what you suggest you would end up killing off all our paid alt accounts, years of training have gone into them.


no to this. just limit alpha accounts like they do trial accounts only 1 per computer.

Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.