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Dev Blog: Introducing Clone States & the Future of Access to EVE

First post First post First post
Author
Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#601 - 2016-08-31 22:38:08 UTC
The more i ponder this the more I am left with one bad feeling:

I pay for this game, a monthly fee of 10-15$ a month. The wonder of EvE is that at any moment I can lose everything that I have built up. However I am losing it to someone who is my equal - someone who has paid and built up their version of the game. So in a sense we are equals.

Now we are going to have a new class of folks, those that have invested nothing in to the game, paid not a nickle, and they potentially could have the same effect of destroying all that someone has built up and actually paid for. That to me does not seem 'fair'.

In every other MMO you don't lose your stuff when you die. You simply re spawn and move on, maybe pay a repair bill to take the damage out or refresh your armor. EvE is that unique and wondrous thing where dying has consequences.

Not that I should be stupid and carry everything in a T1 hauler, but there are those out there that do that. The more I think about it the more these accounts MUST be restricted in high sec. They cannot be allowed to gank, period.

I can justify dying to another sub, because we both have 'real isk', on the line. But dying to someone who has not paid a penny just simply does not seem fair.

I also have concerns about how they can be used in some of the war dec corps. Abuse of war dec to gain "ganking" access will be something CCP has to think long and hard about. We want newbro's to join corps, but to allow them to be abused by people who use VPN or other technologies and open up dozens of gank alts, this is where there is going to be a problem, I am not sure CCP has the technology or the staff levels to monitor and ensure that this is policed and does not become an issue.

I think those that wish to have the full pirate/gank experience should have to pay for it like I do. Failing to restrict these accounts from ganking will I believe be the nail in the coffin of this game, as many players I have spoken to are feeling this right now, we paid for a game, now someone can come in for 'free' and potentially destroy all that we have built, but never pay a cent or invest in EvE's future.
Andrea Cemenotar
Elena Minasse Operations
#602 - 2016-08-31 22:41:39 UTC
Regan Rotineque wrote:
The more i ponder this the more I am left with one bad feeling:

I pay for this game, a monthly fee of 10-15$ a month. The wonder of EvE is that at any moment I can lose everything that I have built up. However I am losing it to someone who is my equal - someone who has paid and built up their version of the game. So in a sense we are equals.

Now we are going to have a new class of folks, those that have invested nothing in to the game, paid not a nickle, and they potentially could have the same effect of destroying all that someone has built up and actually paid for. That to me does not seem 'fair'.

In every other MMO you don't lose your stuff when you die. You simply re spawn and move on, maybe pay a repair bill to take the damage out or refresh your armor. EvE is that unique and wondrous thing where dying has consequences.

Not that I should be stupid and carry everything in a T1 hauler, but there are those out there that do that. The more I think about it the more these accounts MUST be restricted in high sec. They cannot be allowed to gank, period.

I can justify dying to another sub, because we both have 'real isk', on the line. But dying to someone who has not paid a penny just simply does not seem fair.

I also have concerns about how they can be used in some of the war dec corps. Abuse of war dec to gain "ganking" access will be something CCP has to think long and hard about. We want newbro's to join corps, but to allow them to be abused by people who use VPN or other technologies and open up dozens of gank alts, this is where there is going to be a problem, I am not sure CCP has the technology or the staff levels to monitor and ensure that this is policed and does not become an issue.

I think those that wish to have the full pirate/gank experience should have to pay for it like I do. Failing to restrict these accounts from ganking will I believe be the nail in the coffin of this game, as many players I have spoken to are feeling this right now, we paid for a game, now someone can come in for 'free' and potentially destroy all that we have built, but never pay a cent or invest in EvE's future.


I think I get your point although I'm not sure if using word "fair" was a best choice here...... It is EvE after all, I thought the lack of any "fairness" was one of main selling points here?
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#603 - 2016-08-31 22:43:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
What I'm most worried about is the scenario where a pile of curious Alpha State newbies show up and are promptly sent running in tears for the exit by the terminally awful NPE and loudly telling all their friends not to bother with this impenetrable weird spreadsheet dressed as a game, as happened with previous influxes (This Is Eve, etc).

What is CCP doing to improve this situation?

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#604 - 2016-08-31 22:43:07 UTC
The Leopardess wrote:
Just because I send silly amounts of money to this game whenever I look at it sideways doesn't mean I think everyone should - or can. Free play means more people to kill and buy my crap! Yay! I doubt I will even bother owning an alpha unless maybe an extra scout or something.



yeah tell that to SWOTR.... god that game went down hill
Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#605 - 2016-08-31 22:45:03 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
What I'm most worried about is the scenario where a pile of curious Alpha State newbies show up and are promptly sent running in tears for the exit by the terminally awful NPE, as happened with previous influxes (This Is Eve, etc).

What is CCP doing to improve this situation?



CCP dev posted earlier that NPE will be getting an overhaul.
XeeN Aurilen
VX-Spice
#606 - 2016-08-31 22:48:10 UTC
Wat next? drive your Vanquisher for 119.99 DDK per month?
Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#607 - 2016-08-31 22:49:25 UTC
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:
Regan Rotineque wrote:
The more i ponder this the more I am left with one bad feeling:

I pay for this game, a monthly fee of 10-15$ a month. The wonder of EvE is that at any moment I can lose everything that I .


I think I get your point although I'm not sure if using word "fair" was a best choice here...... It is EvE after all, I thought the lack of any "fairness" was one of main selling points here?


I was searching for the correct word to use, but kept coming back to fair.....I agree one of the greatest appeals of EvE is that you can lose everything. To some that is fantastic to the risk adverse its utter terror.

For me its more about having paid and invested in to something, only to now have to lose it to someone who has done nothing basically, except fit a kitty or thrasher which are the most basic of basics.

Zappity
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#608 - 2016-08-31 22:49:52 UTC
Thomas Lot wrote:
Idea...

Limit Alpha clones to High and Low security space. Only let the Alpha clones set safety to red if they are in Low Sec. If in High Sec, the safety is set to green/yellow..

Why would you keep them out of null? If anything, keep them out of highsec.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#609 - 2016-08-31 22:53:42 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
The Leopardess wrote:
Just because I send silly amounts of money to this game whenever I look at it sideways doesn't mean I think everyone should - or can. Free play means more people to kill and buy my crap! Yay! I doubt I will even bother owning an alpha unless maybe an extra scout or something.



yeah tell that to SWOTR.... god that game went down hill



You sir are 100% correct SWTOR has become nothing but a meh game attached to a Pay Shop.
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
#610 - 2016-08-31 22:56:39 UTC
Roenok Baalnorn wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


What?

Ill try to dumb it down for you..

In P2W games they have a system in which free players are no more than sheep...that is they are basically there for P2W players to farm. That intentional mechanic provides content for P2W players and acts as an incentive to "buy in". Eve has no such mechanic because players are protected by concord. There has never been a reason to have such a system in Eve. So a free player in Eve can literally farm for an infinite amount of time and as long as they dont leave high sec be mostly protected from being farmed themselves.


Quote:
Wow, you are going run missions and mine for years. Holy Hell I can't think of anything more depressing.
You really should undock more. There are people in Eve that do nothing but mine for 8-12 hours a days for years on end. And there will be players doing every faucet of PVE like that. And Eve players arent even close to what free play will bring in. Your going to see farmers on a whole new level. Farmers that will keep ratting, mining, and running sites like little lemmings despite the obstacles you put in their way.

You think Eve PVERs are bad you havent seen anything yet, Wait till you get a load of the F2P crowd.


Quote:
Cause farming HS is everything in Eve. Roll
For some people mining in high sec is enough. Not everyone requires the same level of entertainment. Just like some people can sit on the front porch for hours and be entertained by the nothingness that happens in front of their house.

CCP, listen to this man.
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#611 - 2016-08-31 22:57:05 UTC
Regan Rotineque wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
What I'm most worried about is the scenario where a pile of curious Alpha State newbies show up and are promptly sent running in tears for the exit by the terminally awful NPE, as happened with previous influxes (This Is Eve, etc).

What is CCP doing to improve this situation?



CCP dev posted earlier that NPE will be getting an overhaul.

On Reddit, of course. No sense in making mention of it in the Dev Blog that's devoted to an idea to bring new players in, nor anywhere in the 30+ page thread it spawned.

Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/50hcpc/welcome_to_free_to_play_eve/d741gzt
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#612 - 2016-08-31 22:59:08 UTC
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#613 - 2016-08-31 22:59:45 UTC
Soltys wrote:
For any potential veteran / returnee - this is not f2p, this is completely pointless (they can at best "retry" the game on some fresh alt)

A long-time player who's been unsubscribed could log back on to their existing character in the Alpha clone state and play the game that way for a while, reconnect socially, and maybe buy a PLEX in-game or pay for a subscription if something exciting happens or they decide it's worth it, and drop back to free play when things slow down for them.

A veteran player who's paying monthly now but has to take a month or two away from serious Eve play for personal reasons could end their subscription but still log on occasionally to stay involved, then resubscribe and be back where they had been when it makes sense.

A player who would love to keep playing but can't justify the subscription cost can drop back to Alpha status on their existing character and stay involved, remain connected with their corp, fly in fleets with their friends, and be under no pressure to grind out the ISK for a PLEX.

If clone states were just an extended trial, it wouldn't offer these options to veteran Eve players.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Myopic Thyne
Accounts Payable.
#614 - 2016-08-31 23:01:04 UTC
Please explain to me how you're going to stop me using multiplexikng software in disposable VMs with a proxy? You cannot play an infinite game of cat and mouse with the would-be abusers of this. You're adding an infinite into the mix here, and if you give people infinite time and infinite tries, they're going to beat you at being able to stop them, this is a forgone conclusion. In no world will the amount of money you make allow you to stop thousands of botters with infinite free tries.

Why is there this reckless greed? This isn't about 'adding more players' or 'making the game more fun' this is about haphazard and reckless greed, are the $80 monocles and "Greed is Good" campaign coming back, too?

Alpha clone players are ALSO not going to get what they expect, the general expectations of a free to play game are they you are allowed to play on even footing with other people. The literal first rule of free to play is "Don't sell power" what do you THINK what you're doing is? If anything you're going to be working towards a reputation that will take only a month or two before over a decade of awesome reputation is obliterated by being a bad free to play game, but that's ok if you can try to force some more money out of eve, right?

Get with a someone who actually knows how to handle a free to play and discuss this, do not handle it on your own, because you're not handling it, you're making a mistake so big that even as the company who we jokingly make fun of for it's mistakes I find it hard to believe that you would even consider this a good idea.
Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#615 - 2016-08-31 23:03:19 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Soltys wrote:
For any potential veteran / returnee - this is not f2p, this is completely pointless (they can at best "retry" the game on some fresh alt)

A long-time player who's been unsubscribed could log back on to their existing character in the Alpha clone state and play the game that way for a while, reconnect socially, and maybe buy a PLEX in-game or pay for a subscription if something exciting happens or they decide it's worth it, and drop back to free play when things slow down for them.

A veteran player who's paying monthly now but has to take a month or two away from serious Eve play for personal reasons could end their subscription but still log on occasionally to stay involved, then resubscribe and be back where they had been when it makes sense.

A player who would love to keep playing but can't justify the subscription cost can drop back to Alpha status on their existing character and stay involved, remain connected with their corp, fly in fleets with their friends, and be under no pressure to grind out the ISK for a PLEX.

If clone states were just an extended trial, it wouldn't offer these options to veteran Eve players.



It is this that I support 100%. During the past year and half I have had 10 weeks of chemo and a bunch of other bloody awful things happen. I did unsub for a bit, and I truly missed those friend I had in game, not being able to just stop in and say hello etc.. I still had some I could text and stuff, but it was somehow not the same.

Now that I am partially better I have resubed, however should the need arise again I may have to unsub, now I can at least come back and say hello when I am able. That is a good thing I think.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#616 - 2016-08-31 23:05:18 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Soltys wrote:
For any potential veteran / returnee - this is not f2p, this is completely pointless (they can at best "retry" the game on some fresh alt)

A long-time player who's been unsubscribed could log back on to their existing character in the Alpha clone state and play the game that way for a while, reconnect socially, and maybe buy a PLEX in-game or pay for a subscription if something exciting happens or they decide it's worth it, and drop back to free play when things slow down for them.

A veteran player who's paying monthly now but has to take a month or two away from serious Eve play for personal reasons could end their subscription but still log on occasionally to stay involved, then resubscribe and be back where they had been when it makes sense.

A player who would love to keep playing but can't justify the subscription cost can drop back to Alpha status on their existing character and stay involved, remain connected with their corp, fly in fleets with their friends, and be under no pressure to grind out the ISK for a PLEX.

If clone states were just an extended trial, it wouldn't offer these options to veteran Eve players.



CCP the last thing you want to do is try to defend this as F2P you would be better off saying it is extended trial.


basically stop digging you'll hit bedrock before long
Lugh Crow-Slave
#617 - 2016-08-31 23:06:28 UTC
Regan Rotineque wrote:
CCP Darwin wrote:
Soltys wrote:
For any potential veteran / returnee - this is not f2p, this is completely pointless (they can at best "retry" the game on some fresh alt)

A long-time player who's been unsubscribed could log back on to their existing character in the Alpha clone state and play the game that way for a while, reconnect socially, and maybe buy a PLEX in-game or pay for a subscription if something exciting happens or they decide it's worth it, and drop back to free play when things slow down for them.

A veteran player who's paying monthly now but has to take a month or two away from serious Eve play for personal reasons could end their subscription but still log on occasionally to stay involved, then resubscribe and be back where they had been when it makes sense.

A player who would love to keep playing but can't justify the subscription cost can drop back to Alpha status on their existing character and stay involved, remain connected with their corp, fly in fleets with their friends, and be under no pressure to grind out the ISK for a PLEX.

If clone states were just an extended trial, it wouldn't offer these options to veteran Eve players.



It is this that I support 100%. During the past year and half I have had 10 weeks of chemo and a bunch of other bloody awful things happen. I did unsub for a bit, and I truly missed those friend I had in game, not being able to just stop in and say hello etc.. I still had some I could text and stuff, but it was somehow not the same.

Now that I am partially better I have resubed, however should the need arise again I may have to unsub, now I can at least come back and say hello when I am able. That is a good thing I think.



this is why my friends and i use things like TS and even a FB page for our in game toons
Soleil Fournier
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#618 - 2016-08-31 23:06:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Soleil Fournier
It's annoying to try and read the new skills window categories section because the wording goes sideways and from bottom to top. This has the effect of making me want to turn my head to the left horizontally to read them.

It would be much easier to read if the wording on these categories flowed vertically from the top to bottom instead. This would make it so I wouldn't need to crank my head in order to read them.
MidnightWyvern
The Bosena Accords
Warclone Initiative
#619 - 2016-08-31 23:07:03 UTC  |  Edited by: MidnightWyvern
Regan Rotineque wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
The Leopardess wrote:
Just because I send silly amounts of money to this game whenever I look at it sideways doesn't mean I think everyone should - or can. Free play means more people to kill and buy my crap! Yay! I doubt I will even bother owning an alpha unless maybe an extra scout or something.



yeah tell that to SWOTR.... god that game went down hill



You sir are 100% correct SWTOR has become nothing but a meh game attached to a Pay Shop.

In that case, however, the free-to-play mechanics came in AFTER the game was already headed downhill in a hurry, and that was entirely related to the lackluster design of the original game. It was basically a 4-player co-op game that attempted to also be an MMO and failed.

I think you guys are getting your causation mixed up. Yes, in the majority of cases where an MMO went free-to-play, it came in after a dramatic loss of players associated with bad design decisions, but that isn't the case here. EVE has experienced a slow decline in players primarily due to old veterans growing up and moving on with their lives, and more people deciding they don't want to get locked in to spending $15 a month for years to play a video game.

The whole thing of every reduction of the PCU count being as a result of CCP driving away their customers is bullshit. That's the same bullshit that was brought up before EVERY update this game has ever had even while it was expanding in player count year after year. As many people have pointed out before me, EVE Online is the game that has been dying and in it's last few months of life ever since it launched in 2003 if you believe the Forums.

Again, pointing out your concerns so they can be addressed is exactly what CCP has been requesting multiple times in each of these last two DevBlogs, but throwing around doom prophecies because you're scared of change isn't going to help anything.

Yes, when Skill Injectors were first announced, I had a STRONG knee-jerk reaction and thought it was a terrible idea. Then I took some time to think about how the idea was presented and how it would function and realized that it would actually have no impact whatsoever on my day-to-day experience and would be quite beneficial for others. Everyone here in this thread right now needs to give themselves the time to calm down and think rationally.

Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!

Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)

Kon Kre8r
#620 - 2016-08-31 23:07:17 UTC
Now you want to pay your employees to spend more time altering this game so free loaders can stall your Ti-Di and ruin the experience for current paying players (known as Customers) - instead of making the game better to attract new customers? [/b]

You could even extend the free trial period :)
Now that really would handle this "huge problem of new players needing more time to decide to pay for game"

You could get people more willing to pay to play.
You could get the customers so pleased and so excited that they even show support with purchases of things like posters -- as well as monthly account subs!

You could start doing any of the things Paying Customers are suggesting!

You could even start with something simple to ease into this new concept of Customer Satisfaction.
...like allowing Black Ops Ships to use Covert Cloaks as well as the Covert Jumps to Covert Cynos!

You could alter the game to make use of "high-end/64 bit" capable systems like the Nintendo 64 !
You could attract paying customers to the idea of running multiple PAID accounts at the same time via this game's new and better use of dual-graphics cards.

You could even consider paying an employee to be dedicated to considering our ideas and Actually passing along these ideas to yet Another employee that is dedicated to Actually making them happen :)

Black Ops ships using Covert Jump Portals with Covert Cynos are NOT allowed to use Covert Cloaks. That makes sense.