These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Introducing Clone States & the Future of Access to EVE

First post First post First post
Author
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#581 - 2016-08-31 22:10:15 UTC
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:


he meant extracting "alpha allowed skills" as omega with 5mill+ in omega-only skills and then allowing it to drop back to alpha for reskilling those alpha allowed skills - but the longer I think about it, the more I get to think tha whole idea is just gimped less effective attempt of currently existing SP farms.....


Yeah, as somebody pointed out, not going to be possible.

Quote:
Q: Can Alpha clones inject and extract skills?

A: You can Inject skills regardless of your clone state. Currently, we are planning to require Omega state for skill extraction and also not allow the extraction of skills in the Alpha set.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

IcewaterKat
#582 - 2016-08-31 22:10:35 UTC
So the decision for free to play means end of life, like it does for every other game that goes that route.

Wanna be top dog, well pay to win is the way to go. I hate PTW games, it's just pathetic. So does this mean that EVE is turning into FarmVille? Obviously not, but I can see Alpha corps kicking more butt than paying customers.

There is no long any point for casual players to pay EVE any more, unless they just have to fly a tech 2 ship.

I see that any skill that an Alpha Clone can use symbolizes 'nerfed' skills. A lot of those level 4 skills are quite powerful and Level 5 anything is just overkill for what is allowed.

The level of irresponsible griefing that actual paid players can and some most certainly will without consequence, will exceed the level of what CCP will expect. You know we all surprise you with what we pull off already, if we can use it as an exploit for profit or revenge, it will be done with the skills that will surpass expectation.

__TL;DR__

I'm not mad. Nope. not yet. I'll wait until November for that.

I'm disappointed.

Not once was an attempt made to lower the price of subscriptions to try to encourage new players to come to Eve.

Truly disappointed and a bit ashamed that I pay to play EVE Online.

Kats loves cheese more than mouses. :p

oiukhp Muvila
Doomheim
#583 - 2016-08-31 22:10:37 UTC
Arkoth 24 wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Alpha clones will be accessible for free...

And so the horde of retаrded kids is coming.
.



They've been here for years. Roll
Andrea Cemenotar
Elena Minasse Operations
#584 - 2016-08-31 22:12:08 UTC
Pandora Carrollon wrote:


In addition...

  • No Advanced Modules
  • No Cloaks at all unless time limit given to prototype cloaks
  • T1 cruiser to L1 Mastery no further
  • No Mining Barges
  • Must maintain security status of -1 or higher
  • Cannot start a corporation or alliance
  • Abuse of the system/players using F2P will result in permaband of F2P accounts and any subbed accounts, with clear rules as to what constitutes abuse. Of course, this is predicated on the idea of being caught abusing it.
  • 1 Billion ISK cap of account. If they have enough ISK to buy Plex, they need to play free that way.
  • Market Sell cap of 500 million, can't have any more sell orders at a time than that in value.


I may edit this post with more as I think of it.

[1] covered in a blog [I think]
[2]straightly said in the blog
[3] I'd have to check how far in mastery allowed skills push the t1 cruiser mastery >.>
[4]Mining Barge skill is not on the alpha allowed skill list - hence covered already in a blog
[5] interesting note :)
[6]IIRC starting eny requires having a skill trained... which skill is not on the list of skilla allowed for alpha clone to use
[7]I think they have mentioned in a blog abusing still beign bannable?
[8]risky - plex often happens to be above 1bil isk in price
[9]that seems to me like redundant and not really needed - with skill limitains they have, what they would have been selling to exceed that mark anyway?
Mento Audrission
Dark Angel's Legion
#585 - 2016-08-31 22:13:09 UTC
The only question is......why?
Andrea Cemenotar
Elena Minasse Operations
#586 - 2016-08-31 22:14:55 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:


he meant extracting "alpha allowed skills" as omega with 5mill+ in omega-only skills and then allowing it to drop back to alpha for reskilling those alpha allowed skills - but the longer I think about it, the more I get to think tha whole idea is just gimped less effective attempt of currently existing SP farms.....


Yeah, as somebody pointed out, not going to be possible.

Quote:
Q: Can Alpha clones inject and extract skills?

A: You can Inject skills regardless of your clone state. Currently, we are planning to require Omega state for skill extraction and also not allow the extraction of skills in the Alpha set.


now I feel stupid for reading the blog from the beginning to the end and not noticing the part " and also not allow the extraction of skills in the Alpha set." in Q/A >.<
Lugh Crow-Slave
#587 - 2016-08-31 22:16:12 UTC
Crack Spawn wrote:


Skills based system for spying/infiltrating



lol what?
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#588 - 2016-08-31 22:17:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Roenok Baalnorn wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Roenok Baalnorn wrote:

2) Lots of free players do not always mean lots more paying customers. In a F2P/P2W game about 50% of the players will never pay 2 play despite the fact they are at a significant disadvantage. The Clone model of eve doesnt put them at a significant disadvantage. They can still do everything paying players can, just in crappier ships with crappier mods.


Sooo...they can't do everything a paying player can. Can they use a cloak for a variety of reasons? No. Can they light a cyno? No. Can they use capitals? No. Can they invent T2 modules and the like? No.


Im comparing game models not what a free player eve can do to what a paying player can do.... totally different. In F2P/ P2W models they use a sheep/wolf concept. You either volunteer to be the sheep or you pay to be the wolf. It works because once you get past a 2-4 weeks in game, everything gets stupidly long and you start needing special items for things that can only be bought. Imagine training amarr BS level 5 and it taking 350 days for that one level. Training Amarr dread level 3 and it taking 480 days. training Amarr titan 4 and it taking 2369 days. Then you are offered 5 day speed ups, 50 day speed ups, 500 day speed ups, etc. Every few weeks they move the goal post and introduce new special items that make everything else obsolete or underpowered. It becomes a massive money sink. You would spend less money drunk in Las Vegas than you would just too stay competitive.


What?

Quote:
In Eve that wont happen. Because i can start a gallente character. And basically farm high sec for months or years and never pay for anything. I dont have to try to compete no more than anyone else. I cant use more powerful ships. But so what? Its high sec.


Wow, you are going run missions and mine for years. Holy Hell I can't think of anything more depressing.

Quote:
Give me a Vexor and i can do amazing things with farming in high sec. In fact can Alphas use faction/deadspace? If alphas can use faction and deadspace then they could use a VNI with faction amps, faction prop, and faction tank mods and farm nearly as well as a player that can T2 fit everything. I have an alt that is pro at a gila ( even though Alphas couldnt use this because of the dual ship train) and can get 650 dps out of with less than 5 mil SP and a good enough tank to do DED 5/10s.


Cause farming HS is everything in Eve. Roll

Oh, and if they want to fit deadspace stuff to their VNI fine, I'll look forward to the whine threads on the forums after they get ganked. Hell I might take up ganking mission runners as well.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#589 - 2016-08-31 22:18:20 UTC
IcewaterKat wrote:

There is no long any point for casual players to pay EVE any more, unless they just have to fly a tech 2 ship.

T2 ships, most T2 mods, Battlecruisers, battleships, faction ships, cloaks, mining in anything more than a Venture, any type of activity in a wormhole above C2 (with the exception of small bits of exploration), Entosis, research, invention, large-scale manufacturing of anything that makes ISK, PI, effective combat scanning, ice mining, anything to do with any type of structure that matters...

I think I've made my point, so I'm just going to stop here.
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#590 - 2016-08-31 22:27:17 UTC
Mento Audrission wrote:
The only question is......why?

Because subscription numbers, as best as we can tell, have fallen off a cliff compared to a few years ago.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#591 - 2016-08-31 22:27:49 UTC
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:


he meant extracting "alpha allowed skills" as omega with 5mill+ in omega-only skills and then allowing it to drop back to alpha for reskilling those alpha allowed skills - but the longer I think about it, the more I get to think tha whole idea is just gimped less effective attempt of currently existing SP farms.....


Yeah, as somebody pointed out, not going to be possible.

Quote:
Q: Can Alpha clones inject and extract skills?

A: You can Inject skills regardless of your clone state. Currently, we are planning to require Omega state for skill extraction and also not allow the extraction of skills in the Alpha set.


now I feel stupid for reading the blog from the beginning to the end and not noticing the part " and also not allow the extraction of skills in the Alpha set." in Q/A >.<


Don't feel bad, seems most of us missed it too.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
#592 - 2016-08-31 22:28:17 UTC
President Donald Trump will Make America Great Again.

Yeah, this Alpha/Omega Clone idea. I really liked it when I heard it. Having read quite a few posts in here, I think there are some significant problems with it if it isn't tweaked. But I hardly login anymore so it really doesn't matter what I think.
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
Apocalypse Now.
#593 - 2016-08-31 22:33:01 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Maybe you should read the DevBlog....?

They already state cloaking is out as are cynos for Alphas. Mining barges too based on the requirements are not in the Alpha Skill list. And I think the alliance thing is also covered in the skill lists. As for corporations, that is allowed as players can train corp management to level 1.


I have read the blog and about everything I can get my hands on ATM, however, I also assume that anything that CCP says at this point is FLUID and thus I want my "voice" to remain on the named issues. I may not hate what CCP is doing but I certainly don't trust them to keep their current position.

I have my reasons for all of them, most of the reasons are based on things I can already think in my head on how to abuse.
The Leopardess
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#594 - 2016-08-31 22:33:12 UTC  |  Edited by: The Leopardess
Just because I send silly amounts of money to this game whenever I look at it sideways doesn't mean I think everyone should - or can. Free play means more people to kill and buy my crap! Yay! I doubt I will even bother owning an alpha unless maybe an extra scout or something.

龴ↀ◡ↀ龴

Thomas Lot
Astrocomical
Warped Intentions
#595 - 2016-08-31 22:33:16 UTC
Idea...

Limit Alpha clones to High and Low security space. Only let the Alpha clones set safety to red if they are in Low Sec. If in High Sec, the safety is set to green/yellow..
Hendrick Tallardar
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
#596 - 2016-08-31 22:33:25 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Ripard Teg wrote:
3) Pity any poor idiot in high-sec. This is the biggest buff to high-sec ganking that I've ever seen. There will be literally no reason why every EVE player shouldn't have a basic ganking account, if not lots of them (see #2).

We can already do that because of the last stupid feature the SP extractor. A suicide ganker has a very limited set of kills he needs. Once that is trained up you can simply extract and sell the excess SP to get the next PLEX. I reduced my subscriptions from 3 to 1 and have now 4 account, 3 of them get PLEXed this way.

So looks like you once again make a drama about nothing.


Ripard making up stuff on a subject he knows nothing about? I'm shocked!
Drazz Caylen
Team-Pyro Industries
#597 - 2016-08-31 22:33:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Drazz Caylen
I just entertained quite the amusing thought.
...for every unsubscribed cap / supercap / titan pilot waiting for the day to be worth subscribing again,
...for every unsubscribed bittervet unsatisfied with too many gameplay changes,
...for every unsubscribed person disagreeing with the direction of the game,
you have one (or several) Alpha accounts per old eve player who likely has more than enough combat experience to make these maxed out alpha pilots count on t1 ships.
And they could come back. All they have to do is log back in.
There is this gleeful amusement I harbour how CCP keeps talking about new players, about fresh blood, so many other things... but never about how bringing players back they've lost over the years, or have frozen accounts of existing players resurface.

Here is me painting a picture how these capsules will thaw and seed into "low tier" ships, as old blood returns with a vengeance, bite and ruthlessness which New Eden hasn't seen in a while.
You look for new blood, CCP. That's fine, let them come and struggle with an awful NPE. Let those few percent of players managing to overcome the hurdles be welcomed and embedded in the community while the rest gets torn apart.
My eyes rest on a different edge of the horizon, seeing how many of the old blood resurface and what they will be up to.


Vic Jefferson wrote:
Quality product almost always sells.
Why not focus all these efforts on making the product better, rather than simply opening up more avenues to selling it?
Work on the NPE driving players to seek other players.
Throw a bone to the veteran, persistent subscribers, and soon.
What I said before. Unless plans are revealed to majorly polish the NPE (which seems to be ), they will open the polished gates decorated with false promises and let players experience the rough truth.

But what's much more bitter is how CCP seems to be unable to do anything for their NPE, as they've solely relied on the community and third party services to do this job for them for too many years. Unless they show wonders in November, I remain sceptical and say they just can't do it any more. Be it lacking experience from other people leaving or be it decisions done in the wrong direction. They're simply unable.
I invite CCP to surprise me and prove me wrong.

Marsha Mallow wrote:
The complaint that I don't get here is the 'oh god we're going to be overrun by kiddies and gold sellers and bots.' Uhm, this isn't the type of game that is likely to attract or retain kiddies
Are so few ones remembering how terrible gold sellers and mining bots have been a problem before plex have been introduced? Is this forgotten already? Spam in local and NPC corp was abysmal. "report ISK spammer" right click option was legacy code from right there. It was used plenty. Overnight, it died. CCP did some good job implemented anti-botting and anti-RMT features and they kept on the ball for the longest time. I'd like to pretend they could easily do it again.
Also, why would it be different with Alphas than with Trial accounts? Trial accounts have negligible chat spam restrictions. If RMTs really want to make gold in eve, they would still be trying their hardest and trial account abuse would still be giant.
Alpha clones will not change that. Everything working right now to prevent any and all these practices, will prevent Alpha surges. We might see a little bit more in November, and CCP will monitor and hammer it back again.

And for all that's worth, we don't get the raging foaming "Call of Battlefield" type kiddies. The teens of this type trying at the game do not last the trial period anyway. The younger ones who do enjoy it, stay. Their mindset is completely different. Thus they play different games, like EvE.

Iowa Banshee wrote:
Was a reply to someone request cyno be added to list of skill ...read the posts...Sheesh
I did, which didn't make your statements of supposed encouragement for a doomed idea any less ridiculous. It's still wrong and will remain wrong in regards to Alpha / Trial accounts being used as Candles. Only because they've trained the skill doesn't mean they can use it as Alpha Clone. Because they can't. They never will. And CCP won't allow it. CCP knows well enough how much they would break the game if the'd allow it. Cynosural Field Theory was never trainable on trial accounts to my knowledge, regardless of NPE iteration. For a reason.

Ima Wreckyou wrote:
- Can only use ships to run level 2 missions? Buy a PLEX with $ and get more ISK!
- Only extremely slow SP accumulation? Buy more PLEX with $ and get more SP!
- Only crappy ships and modules? Pay 15$ a month to access all the other toys!
- Paid those 15$ and now you need even more SP and ISK? Get some more PLEX for $!!!
This just looks really horrible for a new player
How out of touch with reality are you? All these restrictions have been imposed on trial accounts for the longest of times until the recent changes a few months ago, though I'd like to see a newbro going anywhere with a battleship in less than 14 / 30 days.

Seriously. Folks frothing at the mouth how bad Alpha players will have it starting as if trial accounts never existed. Reality check.

Zockhandra wrote:
Okay, so what happens when you need to evac your stuff from a pos/Citadel. But then you cant fly your x ship.
Or your in a super, but only you cant jump and you cant pay a sub because x problem?
Alternatively, your a new player who can no longer afford to sub after 4 months of subbed play, now all your skills are gone and your back to square one?
How about writing a support ticket and see where it will lead? There was a time when people's capitals got moved through a ticket because they've been months in "hostile space" if memory serves me correctly.
Andrea Cemenotar
Elena Minasse Operations
#598 - 2016-08-31 22:33:38 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:


he meant extracting "alpha allowed skills" as omega with 5mill+ in omega-only skills and then allowing it to drop back to alpha for reskilling those alpha allowed skills - but the longer I think about it, the more I get to think tha whole idea is just gimped less effective attempt of currently existing SP farms.....


Yeah, as somebody pointed out, not going to be possible.

Quote:
Q: Can Alpha clones inject and extract skills?

A: You can Inject skills regardless of your clone state. Currently, we are planning to require Omega state for skill extraction and also not allow the extraction of skills in the Alpha set.


now I feel stupid for reading the blog from the beginning to the end and not noticing the part " and also not allow the extraction of skills in the Alpha set." in Q/A >.<


Don't feel bad, seems most of us missed it too.


b..but for half the thread I'm bashing ppl for not reading the devblog and asking about cyno and cloacking :P
Roenok Baalnorn
Sadistically Sinister
#599 - 2016-08-31 22:34:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Roenok Baalnorn
Teckos Pech wrote:


What?

Ill try to dumb it down for you..

In P2W games they have a system in which free players are no more than sheep...that is they are basically there for P2W players to farm. That intentional mechanic provides content for P2W players and acts as an incentive to "buy in". Eve has no such mechanic because players are protected by concord. There has never been a reason to have such a system in Eve. So a free player in Eve can literally farm for an infinite amount of time and as long as they dont leave high sec be mostly protected from being farmed themselves.


Quote:
Wow, you are going run missions and mine for years. Holy Hell I can't think of anything more depressing.
You really should undock more. There are people in Eve that do nothing but mine for 8-12 hours a day for years on end. And there will be players doing every faucet of PVE like that. And Eve players arent even close to what free play will bring in. Your going to see farmers on a whole new level. Farmers that will keep ratting, mining, and running sites like little lemmings despite the obstacles you put in their way.

You think Eve PVERs are bad you havent seen anything yet, Wait till you get a load of the F2P crowd.


Quote:
Cause farming HS is everything in Eve. Roll
For some people mining in high sec is enough. Not everyone requires the same level of entertainment. Just like some people can sit on the front porch for hours and be entertained by the nothingness that happens in front of their house.
Roland Schlosser
Meteor Industrial Complex
#600 - 2016-08-31 22:34:36 UTC
Alphas should not be allowed multiple clients open. The feature is intended to bring new blood in, not allow current players to have as many disposable alts as they please.

Corporation management should also be removed form the Alpha skills list, same reasoning as above. New, potentially temporary, players should be funneled into existing Corps, not allowed to create permanent in game entities.