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Dev Blog: Introducing Clone States & the Future of Access to EVE

First post First post First post
Author
Andrea Cemenotar
Elena Minasse Operations
#561 - 2016-08-31 21:45:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Cemenotar
Juvenius Drakonius wrote:

be able to make cynos?

This is too big of a change for a simple post in a blog/forum this the biggest game shift since capitals where introduced, this needs special attention.....please more info, more details



the amount of ppl that comments without bothering to read the devblog is astonishing - there are two thing STRAIGHTLY mentioned in a blog that alpha clone WON'T be able to do - traiing up [and using] cynos and cloacking devices

EDIT:
Cinders Tekitsu wrote:
instead of pausing training because of an omega skill, skip it, and move down the list to the first alpha trainable skill and carry on. if you get to the end of the list with nothing trainable then pause it.
you could also bring back the old training queue for alphas (24 hour window)... forcing them to log in "every day" to continue their training. that alone might be enough to make it too inconvenient to create a 1 person fleet of 50 alpha clones



hmmm as it was not mentioned I though that alphas will follow trial mechanics here - all skills scheduled in the que must start within 24h window from the point of scheduling
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#562 - 2016-08-31 21:51:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Soltys
TBH I'm not now even sure if it qualifies as typical (+premium) f2p.

For example, I've a friend that has some small yet decent cash and flies one type of T3C. Told him about "f2p" and he responded - "Well I know, but what's the point for me ? I can't fly anything I normally fly, I cannot use most racial stuff as I trained into other areas and should I even want to train them I'm well beyond 5m sp".

For any potential veteran / returnee - this is not f2p, this is completely pointless (they can at best "retry" the game on some fresh alt) - and IMHO it's good. Not like subbing by any means out there is an issue these days.

For genuinly new players it's just evolved trial with no explicit time limit, which is notably better deal than they have now. But also with rigid constraints in terms of what they can really do/skill in game. It's less that we could do in 2003 at the release day.

I rarely agree with CCP ideas these days, but this one is good (and literally harmless for normal "endgame" or even "midgame").

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#563 - 2016-08-31 21:52:57 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
You'll have to make it so all alpha skills are unable to be extracted, otherwise it will be very easy to milk free SP at no cost.

And by the way, I don't think this will influence subscribers unless it is matched by an improvement in the NPE.

This is basically just the same as the free trial in many respects, and so I wouldn't expect any major changes in subscriber numbers as a result. The possibilities for exploitation though are great if this isn't implemented carefully.



the minimal amount of sp you have to have prior to using extraction is 5.5 million SPs

in the dev blog they say that fully maxed in skillz alpha should have around 5mill SPs which is somewhere around 500k SPs short to use an extractor anyway

so officially stating "alphas cannot use extractor" would be imo kinda redundant

[other thing being old toons with advanced skills trained that turned alpha and wish to extract SPs from "locked out" skillz]

1. Get a 5mil SP character who's SP is not allocated in the Alpha skills.

2. Revert to an Alpha clone.

3. Train all the Alpha skills to maximum of 5mil SP worth.

4. Subscribe for a month and extract all the Alpha skill SP.

5. Revert to an Alpha clone.

6. Train all the Alpha skills to maximum of 5mil SP worth.

7. Subscribe for a month and extract all the Alpha skill SP.

8. Repeat for free SP.

It doesn't take much for someone to work this out and then scale it onto hundreds of accounts.


You cannot extract below 5 million SP, IIRC.

So, not going to work. You'll have to train above 5 million which will require a paid sub.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Caco De'mon
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#564 - 2016-08-31 21:55:32 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
It doesn't take much for someone to work this out and then scale it onto hundreds of accounts.



It doesn't take much for someone who doesn't know what the F he is talking about to make shat up and play Chicken Little all day....

*"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."

Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
#565 - 2016-08-31 21:58:06 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
TheVirus32 wrote:

- Flexible plex prices, AKA: the more the demand the more the prices get closer to regular 1 month membership prices, to ensure that plex doesn't go through the roof (and that's coming from someone who never plexes, because I like keeping my iskies)


Uhhh...why? Are Alpha's going to be buying PLEX? For what purpose? If anything they'll likely be selling them to get ISK.

Errr for upgrading to omega? The change to the F2P model is supposed to attract people who cant afford paying the sub with real money, so PLEX will be in high demand if the F2P model is successful.

I dont think that players who cant afford a 12€ subscription will buy many 20€ PLEX.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#566 - 2016-08-31 21:58:31 UTC
I guess they just really dont want any freighters to move in hisec at all.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#567 - 2016-08-31 21:59:03 UTC
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:
win189 wrote:
i think there should be Some Exceptions to this like for example if a Alpha logs in and a omega logs in it will allow but it will only restrict one alpha at a time



can't upvote it enought! :)

Moac Tor wrote:
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
You'll have to make it so all alpha skills are unable to be extracted, otherwise it will be very easy to milk free SP at no cost.

And by the way, I don't think this will influence subscribers unless it is matched by an improvement in the NPE.

This is basically just the same as the free trial in many respects, and so I wouldn't expect any major changes in subscriber numbers as a result. The possibilities for exploitation though are great if this isn't implemented carefully.



the minimal amount of sp you have to have prior to using extraction is 5.5 million SPs

in the dev blog they say that fully maxed in skillz alpha should have around 5mill SPs which is somewhere around 500k SPs short to use an extractor anyway

so officially stating "alphas cannot use extractor" would be imo kinda redundant

[other thing being old toons with advanced skills trained that turned alpha and wish to extract SPs from "locked out" skillz]

1. Get a 5mil SP character who's SP is not allocated in the Alpha skills.

2. Revert to an Alpha clone.

3. Train all the Alpha skills to maximum of 5mil SP worth.

4. Subscribe for a month and extract all the Alpha skill SP.

5. Revert to an Alpha clone.

6. Train all the Alpha skills to maximum of 5mil SP worth.

7. Subscribe for a month and extract all the Alpha skill SP.

8. Repeat for free SP.

It doesn't take much for someone to work this out and then scale it onto hundreds of accounts.


hmmmm I have to admitt I haven't thought about it this way

but then to be honest the amount of time needed for each cycle makes it feels [to me] quite ineffective - at least compared to currently existing SP farms


It is not free SP unless you consider subbing every other month to be "free".

Further, the subbed character is no longer an Alpha, they are no Omega clones. So, the idea of preventing Alphas from using extractors won't mean anything.

If you really wanted to stop this, prevent extractors from working when there are unallocated SP.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Dayltor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#568 - 2016-08-31 21:59:08 UTC
If they cut into my gobloons, this is a horrible change.

Otherwise, great change. Can't wait to see it happen.
Caco De'mon
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#569 - 2016-08-31 22:00:09 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
I guess they just really dont want any freighters to move in hisec at all.



Then get into the shipping escort biz....

When you think CCP give you lemons, make lemonade!

*"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."

Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
Apocalypse Now.
#570 - 2016-08-31 22:01:05 UTC
I vote only 1 F2P Account allowed on same IP as a sub account, otherwise, 1 Account only.

Also, no skills beyond level 3...

In addition...

  • No Advanced Modules
  • No Cloaks at all unless time limit given to prototype cloaks
  • T1 cruiser to L1 Mastery no further
  • No Mining Barges
  • Must maintain security status of -1 or higher
  • Cannot start a corporation or alliance
  • Abuse of the system/players using F2P will result in permaband of F2P accounts and any subbed accounts, with clear rules as to what constitutes abuse. Of course, this is predicated on the idea of being caught abusing it.
  • 1 Billion ISK cap of account. If they have enough ISK to buy Plex, they need to play free that way.
  • Market Sell cap of 500 million, can't have any more sell orders at a time than that in value.


I may edit this post with more as I think of it.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#571 - 2016-08-31 22:02:10 UTC
Roenok Baalnorn wrote:
snip


1. Eve already has undesireables. Twisted

2. True, remains to be seen if this will increase player counts.

3. If an alliance can organize a thousand+ players to engage in a single system which produces TIDI - more power to them. That's a thousand+ players in EVE that otherwise wouldn't be here. If an alliance (say, TEST or PH) can organize a thousand+ Alpha players and take SOV with them, more power to them.

4. What sort of resources do you mean? Server CPU cycles? Doubtful. Asteriods? Also doubtful. And from the devblog: "As you know, EVE is a very special game. Our single shard server means that every player truly affects every other, whether through economics, resource gathering, direct combat or bad posting. This in turn means that our universe is more interesting, more exciting and more dangerous with each additional citizen."

5 & 6. Perhaps, but that remains to be seen.

7. I'm fine with that so long as you can't have more than one of them online at once.

8 & 9. Slow support ticket response time or having to hire new suport staff are no reasons to not try to get new players in the game.

10. Crowd Omega players out of highsec? Good. But there are plenty of resources to go around in highsec anyway, don't worry.

11. That's simply a function of having more people in the game. We want more people in the game.

12. CCP will continue to iterate on the game.

Quote:
You want an answer to the trial BS... here it is:

1) Set up a free to play server that is separate from TQ.
2) No restrictions on this server
3) No customer support for this server. You want customer support you have to pay for it.
4) No plexes or skill injectors on this server.
5) The server is wiped clean every 6 months.
6) At any time you may transfer your character and your assets to TQ with your character in its current state. The cost of this transfer is that you buy a 1 month sub plus $5 transfer fee. The transfer fee is waived with a 3 month sub or more.

Play your heart out free player. When your sick of being reset, come join us on TQ. Otherwise take all the time you need to learn game mechanics. You could also leave the trial up on TQ as is and give people that option.
OMG NO. This is horrible. We want new players to engage in the shared world, not keep them separate.
Max Fubarticus
K Diamond Holding LTD.
Bullets Bombs and Blondes
#572 - 2016-08-31 22:03:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Fubarticus
Oh! this is going to end well LOL

I predict the "Great Alpha Omega War" in YC... whatever year 2017 is.

Imagine... Burst Omega boosters in an Alpha fleet.
"Frenemy" Alpha Fleets
"Awoxing Alphas"
etc.

Let the great Clone Wars begin!!Shocked

Max


Coming to a theater near you!
Another cinematic classic from the producers of the critically acclaimed " Gone with the Nerfs " and " Gank this B***h ".
The epic saga of two star crossed lovers...Alpha and...Omegggaaaa.

[music intro] - Icelandic mating song
[trailer starts]

Alpha: " I begin you "

Omega: " I end you "

Alpha: " I Kill you "

Omega: " Oh Crap! "

[Credits]: brought to you by Epic Failure Gaming, in association with "What do we do now?" productions.
This production has not yet been rated by the association of "Really smart people".


Big smileCome on! Just poking a little fun at this before things get too seriousBig smile

Civil discourse is uniquely human. After all, when is the last time a pride of lions and a herd of water buffalo negotiated SOV over a watering hole? Never. Someone either gets their ass kicked or eaten. At the end of the day someone holds SOV.

Andrea Cemenotar
Elena Minasse Operations
#573 - 2016-08-31 22:04:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Cemenotar
Quote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


hmmmm I have to admitt I haven't thought about it this way

but then to be honest the amount of time needed for each cycle makes it feels [to me] quite ineffective - at least compared to currently existing SP farms


It is not free SP unless you consider subbing every other month to be "free".

Further, the subbed character is no longer an Alpha, they are no Omega clones. So, the idea of preventing Alphas from using extractors won't mean anything.

If you really wanted to stop this, prevent extractors from working when there are unallocated SP.


he meant extracting "alpha allowed skills" as omega with 5mill+ in omega-only skills and then allowing it to drop back to alpha for reskilling those alpha allowed skills - but the longer I think about it, the more I get to think tha whole idea is just gimped less effective attempt of currently existing SP farms.....
Anah Sarlai
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#574 - 2016-08-31 22:06:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Anah Sarlai
Please don't forget , ppl can gank with numbers of alts that are free to create. There should be engagement limitations in highsec

Imagine the literally Alphastrike team with 100-200 alts by a few players on freighters.

Ppl will just harass the s*ht out of ppl with multiple logged in alphas for scout/potential eye for ganks...
Yes it will increase newcomers numbers, maybe increase eve community, but in the other hand will boost up ppl with power to use extra alts...

I would try to find out a method, you can only use this alpha account when you dont have around multiple mains/subscripted accs

I would personnaly with the current rules make 10-20 alts like this, log on them and infest nullsec systems to harass out ppl and kill ADM-s at a zone... if i can do it, anyone can and image in a war there will be 10-20 alpha accounts sitting each system in a region...

I say its a smart idea until you get in the factor of ppl who use alts to get intel/gank/harass
Not talking about the scams with buy orders/contracts... and im pretty sure others have pretty good ideas what profit can be achieved by these massive alt accounts.

Thats my feeling bout it, so please try to work on a system that limits such exploits
EDit:
if you can find a way to limit logons based on IP-s (that are arent masked with VPN and other stuff) with alpha accounts to only 1 it can solve the problem. OR make an auth system that ensures only one alpha account is logged on.
other than that you will end up limiting the accounts so much that its not even worth logging on anymore.

Other games basicly just limit the players in a playground till the customer decides to pay and get the full glimpse of the game. Would limit the startingzone as constellation that they can do there whatever they want till they upgrade. Players already are somewhere cant undock till they change to school zone. If they are undocked donno...
Kolmogorow
Freedom Resources
#575 - 2016-08-31 22:06:48 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:


4. Subscribe for a month and extract all the Alpha skill SP.



Extracting SPs from the Alpha skill set won't be allowed as the Dev Blog says:

"Currently, we are planning to require Omega state for skill extraction and also not allow the extraction of skills in the Alpha set."
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#576 - 2016-08-31 22:06:50 UTC

f2p p2w what's next? I'm about to sell my toons and never bother with subs. My Alpha army is coming...

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#577 - 2016-08-31 22:06:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
I vote only 1 F2P Account allowed on same IP as a sub account, otherwise, 1 Account only.

Also, no skills beyond level 3...

In addition...

  • No Advanced Modules
  • No Cloaks at all unless time limit given to prototype cloaks
  • T1 cruiser to L1 Mastery no further
  • No Mining Barges
  • Must maintain security status of -1 or higher
  • Cannot start a corporation or alliance
  • Abuse of the system/players using F2P will result in permaband of F2P accounts and any subbed accounts, with clear rules as to what constitutes abuse. Of course, this is predicated on the idea of being caught abusing it.
  • 1 Billion ISK cap of account. If they have enough ISK to buy Plex, they need to play free that way.
  • Market Sell cap of 500 million, can't have any more sell orders at a time than that in value.


I may edit this post with more as I think of it.


Maybe you should read the DevBlog....?

They already state cloaking is out as are cynos for Alphas. Mining barges too based on the requirements are not in the Alpha Skill list. And I think the alliance thing is also covered in the skill lists. As for corporations, that is allowed as players can train corp management to level 1.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#578 - 2016-08-31 22:07:45 UTC
Kolmogorow wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:


4. Subscribe for a month and extract all the Alpha skill SP.



Extracting SPs from the Alpha skill set won't be allowed as the Dev Blog says:

"Currently, we are planning to require Omega state for skill extraction and also not allow the extraction of skills in the Alpha set."


Poor Moac.... P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Roenok Baalnorn
Baalnorn Heavy Industries
#579 - 2016-08-31 22:10:06 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Roenok Baalnorn wrote:

2) Lots of free players do not always mean lots more paying customers. In a F2P/P2W game about 50% of the players will never pay 2 play despite the fact they are at a significant disadvantage. The Clone model of eve doesnt put them at a significant disadvantage. They can still do everything paying players can, just in crappier ships with crappier mods.


Sooo...they can't do everything a paying player can. Can they use a cloak for a variety of reasons? No. Can they light a cyno? No. Can they use capitals? No. Can they invent T2 modules and the like? No.


Im comparing game models not what a free player eve can do to what a paying player can do.... totally different. In F2P/ P2W models they use a sheep/wolf concept. You either volunteer to be the sheep or you pay to be the wolf. It works because once you get past a 2-4 weeks in game, everything gets stupidly long and you start needing special items for things that can only be bought. Imagine training amarr BS level 5 and it taking 350 days for that one level. Training Amarr dread level 3 and it taking 480 days. training Amarr titan 4 and it taking 2369 days. Then you are offered 5 day speed ups, 50 day speed ups, 500 day speed ups, etc. Every few weeks they move the goal post and introduce new special items that make everything else obsolete or underpowered. It becomes a massive money sink. You would spend less money drunk in Las Vegas than you would just too stay competitive.

In Eve that wont happen. Because i can start a gallente character. And basically farm high sec for months or years and never pay for anything. I dont have to try to compete no more than anyone else. I cant use more powerful ships. But so what? Its high sec.

Give me a Vexor and i can do amazing things with farming in high sec. In fact can Alphas use faction/deadspace? If alphas can use faction and deadspace then they could use a VNI with faction amps, faction prop, and faction tank mods and farm nearly as well as a player that can T2 fit everything. I have an alt that is pro at a gila ( even though Alphas couldnt use this because of the dual ship train) and can get 650 dps out of with less than 5 mil SP and a good enough tank to do DED 5/10s.

They are restricted on trains/ mods/ ships. But there are ways around that without paying and they can farm high sec for infinity competing with paying players who really cant do anything but suicide gank them. Welcome to Space Farmville. Leave your wallet at home, its not needed here. Advanced Alpha Newbro Frustration level V training and will be completed as soon as i scan down my 15th plex today and find a newbro in a caracal/vexor running it for the 14th time.
James Zimmer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#580 - 2016-08-31 22:10:13 UTC
First, I'm very excited about the change. I can already think of a friend who isn't willing to subscribe right now who may be willing to try out a free, limited account.

The next thing is that I think there is an extremely delicate balance that has to be achieved when it comes to skills. Too much and the wrong ones, and they'll become an exploitable alt army (I checked for gas harvesting almost immediately and am relieved that it is not on the list). On the other hand, too few skills, and we're going to have a lot of frustrated newbies who leave EVE with a bad taste in their mouth.

To that end, may I suggest allowing Alphas to fly interceptors. Because of their ability to zip through bubbles and insta-warp, interceptors are the taxi of nullsec, and a huge quality of life improvement for those living there. It would be much easier to recruit someone into a nullsec corp if they could fly them.