These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Introducing Clone States & the Future of Access to EVE

First post First post First post
Author
ArmyOfMe
Teddybears.
Dead Terrorists
#241 - 2016-08-31 16:51:10 UTC
Bloodoff wrote:
Someone might have asked already but does it mean CCP will reimburse 5m SP to every one of us (Omega Master Race) since getting to that level of 5m SP is gonna be free? Big smile

i wouldnt mind that Lol
Doomsday operation straight to 5, even tho i will never fly one Lol

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.

FearlessLittleToaster
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#242 - 2016-08-31 16:53:30 UTC  |  Edited by: FearlessLittleToaster
SERIOUS QUESTION ABOUT IMPLEMENTATION HERE


Sorry about the caps and whatnot, but I do have what I think is a genuine question: Will faction/DEDspace modules be allowed for Alpha Clones?

This is relevant because lower skill requirements are one of the major perks for these modules. In fact in some cases they are otherwise Identical to T2.

For example a Corelum C-type Energized Membrane requires only hull upgrades III to fit, where as the T2 version of it requires Hull upgrades V, which is beyond what an Alpha clone can train. Personally I think they should be able to use them. It leaves a lot more options open, but at sharply increased cost which makes things interesting.

Also letting somebody use more than a single Alpha clone account from one computer, which many many other people have pointed out is a TERRIBLE idea, is in fact a terrible idea. Don't let it happen.

Other than that I'm cautiously optimistic. This looks like a change that could keep a lot of people in the game who enjoyed playing but didn't have time to get their $15 worth every month. Be flexible if problems pop up an I think it could work quite well.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#243 - 2016-08-31 16:56:31 UTC
motie one
Secret Passage
#244 - 2016-08-31 16:57:29 UTC  |  Edited by: motie one
Firstly, really nice idea, the core reasoning is good for EVE. I am sure you will be able to adapt and amend to avoid the exploits, and inbalances that will occur, and modify as required, it will get a lot of interest going, either way.

One suggestion, I understand the logic to limit to a single race for weapons systems, but it might be wise in conjunction with this, to eliminate base racial training on cruisers and below, and introduce new skills. Ie Amarr destroyer skill gets replaced with destroyer skill.

(Non race) Cruiser, destroyer and frigate.
Thereby Opening up a choice for alphas.

Together with these for access to more advanced vessels.

racial Cruiser specialisation, racial destroyer specialisation and racial frigate specialisation. Only trainable on Omegas, requires ship skill to IV.

This would be a lot cleaner, clearer, and manageable.
Roenok Baalnorn
Sadistically Sinister
#245 - 2016-08-31 16:59:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Roenok Baalnorn
Im honestly speechless. This is going to completely change Eve and im not so sure that its going to make it better. Going F2P has never been a good thing for any game ive ever played. Its always ended with the game being flooded with a year or two by all the trash that us paying Eve players pay to keep out of our game.

And thats what happens. You get a bunch of kids and trash and the people that actually pay to play the game get sick of dealing with them and just stop playing. Then the game tanks because all the paying players quit and the free players suck up everything and never invest money in the game.

This is a social game and WHO you play with is as important to most people here as what you are playing. If the social aspect of this game becomes like F2P games, ive played in the past, i likely wont stick around. I dont want to try to relax in the middle of Daycare Online.
Zappity
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#246 - 2016-08-31 17:01:52 UTC
Darkwing Fiftytwo wrote:
What about limiting system access to high-sec or high/lo-sec?? Is that a good or bad idea?

Good idea. Limit them to low and null.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Jed Airtech
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#247 - 2016-08-31 17:02:43 UTC
Can we train alpha skills on alts on accounts with an active subscription but who do not have an active training queue?
motie one
Secret Passage
#248 - 2016-08-31 17:03:07 UTC
Roenok Baalnorn wrote:
Im honestly speechless. This is going to completely change Eve and im not so sure that its going to make it better. Going F2P has never been a good thing for any game ive ever played. Its always ended with the game being flooded with a year or two by all the trash that us paying Eve players pay to keep out of our game.

And thats what happens. You get a bunch of kids and trash and the people that actually pay to play the game get sick of dealing with them and just stop playing. Then the game tanks because all the paying players quit and the free players suck up everything and never invest money in the game.

This is a social game and WHO you play with is as important to most people here as what you are playing. If the social aspect of this game becomes like F2P games, ive played in the past, i likely wont stick around. I dont want to try to relax in the middle of Daycare Online.


I think your worries are valid, but I do not believe it will be as bad as you fear.

At the end of the day, we spend our time talking to our corp and alliance members, that will not change, and many corps will not accept these players for membership.

EVE is full of great players and people, and also full of complete idiots. Nothing will change, we just choose who we talk to.
Reinhardt Kreiss
TetraVaal Tactical Group
#249 - 2016-08-31 17:03:11 UTC
Rapala Armiron wrote:
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:
I can not believe CCP takes this path. One example: have multiple T1 ganker clones for free. Another one: have dozens of T1 mining alts emptying belts faster than they can spawn.

What are you thinking CCP?





They are thinking that they are out of ideas. They tried attracting casuals by making eve a more friendly place and that didnt work. They tried dumbing down the game and that didnt work. They forgot what made eve good in the first place, abandoning their base in favor of chasing after wow players. Nothing has worked. They are at the end of the rope. So like all mmo dev's who are out of ideas they throw in the towel and go ftp. Ofc this wont work. FTP attracts casuals - but eve is built around hardcore players - the casuals will spike eve's player count in the short term - but it wont last. It never does. The casuals being casuals they will fade away. A year from now eve will be in a worse place then it is today.

Free to play is the death knell for games. What I dont understand is why they feel they will be different then every other mmo that went ftp as a last desperate move before going belly up? This model doesnt even make sense - ftp is built around whales - this model ignores whales and micro transactions and instead its built around making the gaming experience inconvenient for its alphas e.g. they cant do this and they cant do that without purchasing a full account. But how are they going to convince casuals that what they are missing out on is so much better then what they are getting for free that it is worth spending 15$ a month for? Casuals already could try out the game on a trial account - if that trial account wasnt enough to convince a causal to subscribe how is giving them a permanent trial account for ever going to change that? CCP continues to burn its bridges to its core players. When this doesnt work will there be any going back?

Well it was a good run.


Quoting for emphasis.
Ginger Naari
Doomheim
#250 - 2016-08-31 17:05:18 UTC
Brodit wrote:
Okay. I'm down with the f2p aspect of this but your application of clone types is short sighted.

I have 6 chars spread over 2 accounts, and because I like to multi-box occasionally I have spent the last few years giving the alts some useful skills. Cloaking/Mining/Scanning/Combat and PI (I notice that alphas cannot do PI) They have been contributing in their own way to this game, for some, as long as 10 years. Okay they are not overwhelmed with skill points ranging between 450k to 30M sps but your proposal effectively neuters them. The Primary chars will be the Omega chars by default, and the alts on each account will become Alphas. No cloaking or PI and limited everything else. Cheers.

I'm not even sure there is a work around. If alt A wants to initiate PI, do I have to change them to omega clone then set the PI. If I then log on alt B make them Omega, will it halt the PI of alt A.

If your going down this route, I want a 3rd clone state. If an account is active (plex/sub'd) *Omega and Theta clones are in effect.
If an account is inactive (no plex/sub'd) clones are alpha.

Revised States

Omega clone. Active skill training. All Skills.
Theta clone. No skill training. All Skills.
Alpha clone. Reduced skill training. Reduced skills.

That is all.



If your account is subbed...every character on it is Omega, so 2 accs subbed, 6 Omegas..Try to keep up ;)
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
#251 - 2016-08-31 17:05:52 UTC
Roenok Baalnorn wrote:
Im honestly speechless. This is going to completely change Eve and im not so sure that its going to make it better. Going F2P has never been a good thing for any game ive ever played. Its always ended with the game being flooded with a year or two by all the trash that us paying Eve players pay to keep out of our game.

And thats what happens. You get a bunch of kids and trash and the people that actually pay to play the game get sick of dealing with them and just stop playing. Then the game tanks because all the paying players quit and the free players suck up everything and never invest money in the game.

This is a social game and WHO you play with is as important to most people here as what you are playing. If the social aspect of this game becomes like F2P games, ive played in the past, i likely wont stick around. I dont want to try to relax in the middle of Daycare Online.


There's an exception: SWTOR. F2P made it playable, because it was essentially DOA - a casual arcade MMO dressed up as a 'WoW-killer'. It's really only worth subscribing to it if you can accept it and enjoy it for what it is. I subscribe, despite the fact that giving EA money in any form makes me sick to my stomach, but the fact is I can't deny enjoying the game for what it is, and it really is a fun little casual themepark experience. That being said, this is not what EVE is. EVE was meant to be the heavy metal to SWTOR's pop-rock. EVE going F2P is like Linkin Park going electronica tbh.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Assaj Ventress
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#252 - 2016-08-31 17:07:11 UTC
Well, here's to more high-sec ganking catalysts
Ghenghis Kralj
POS Party
Ember Sands
#253 - 2016-08-31 17:08:41 UTC
I think this is a great, great step in the right direction for EVE. My feedback is you should consider limiting actions rather than SP limits. Let free accounts participate in most if not all pvp and early pve content. Let those free accounts even skill up more if they use their plex. After their paid period is over, allow those skills to be used in free account mode; however, limit ISK making and certain pvp actions to keep things in check.

For example
Things free accounts can do:
1. Train up to the limit you set out
2. Undock in mining frigates
3. Activate lower end mining modules
4. Accept and complete lower end missions
5. Get reduced ISK from ratting

Things paid accounts can do
1. Cyno
2. Activate cloak
3. DD or maybe just caps in general. Alternatively, create list of ships that only paid accounts could use to keep things in check. Maybe logi becomes a problem? Ok, only paid accounts can undock and use t2 logi.
4. Significant money making activities (higher level missions, strip mining, gas huffing, etc.)
5. Skill extraction

I think this is the direction we need to go in to make a hybrid system work for everybody.
Rapala Armiron
Bagel and Lox
#254 - 2016-08-31 17:10:47 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Rapala Armiron wrote:
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:
I can not believe CCP takes this path. One example: have multiple T1 ganker clones for free. Another one: have dozens of T1 mining alts emptying belts faster than they can spawn.

What are you thinking CCP?





They are thinking that they are out of ideas. They tried attracting casuals by making eve a more friendly place and that didnt work. They tried dumbing down the game and that didnt work. They forgot what made eve good in the first place, abandoning their base in favor of chasing after wow players. Nothing has worked. They are at the end of the rope. So like all mmo dev's who are out of ideas they throw in the towel and go ftp. Ofc this wont work. FTP attracts casuals - but eve is built around hardcore players - the casuals will spike eve's player count in the short term - but it wont last. It never does. The casuals being casuals they will fade away. A year from now eve will be in a worse place then it is today.

Well it was a good run.



EVE isn't over, this kind of thing , even if we don't like it that much, isn't enough to destroy the game. But you are right in that it is the latest in a long line of moves aimed at bringing in new players that is again likely to fail because it doesn't address the core issues that keep people out of EVE:

Of the top of my head those issues are:

-Space setting (most people want elves and crap)

-non-consensual pvp (most mmo players despise this)

-The way ships are "flown" (of to Massively OP and read the comments, you will see this come up time and again)

-Lack of Avatars for people to "identify with

-Permanent loss of items/"death penalty"

-Sandbox nature of the game (most gamers want to experience a story, not make one)

And I'm sure there are more. The real problem is that the EVE community is mostly made up of ANTI-MMO players who like that EVE isn't like the others with all the leveling and sharding and pvp flags and instancing and safe cities and whatnot.

A game like EVE is forever going to be a niche that mostly attracts non-mainstream folks, and while it's natural for any business to try to squeeze every dime they can out of a property, there is simply a limit on how far that can go. That's true of everything, not just EVE.

My prediction is it doesn't destroy everything but it ends up like "opportunities" and the new NPE and such things: in the end it will have little to no positive or negative effect.


I agree that this wont work because ftp doesnt work. But list of reasons why people dont play eve is flat wrong. Eve is a niche game that catered to hardcore players. It was counter programming to games like wow. When eve embraced its hardcore status it thrived. The more articles that appeared in the news about big fights, assassinations and corp thefts, the more eve grew.

Eve only went off the rails when CCP started chasing casuals. Just as an example - when I first started playing there was a pretty good chance that someone would haze you in a starting player system - they would put up a can saying something like "tactical supplies" waiting for you to take it and when you did they would blap you. Sure it was not sporting - but it gave players a taste of the true eve - while those that didnt like it left, others, htfu and figured out how to survive - those survivors became long term players. Now, ccp has made it so the starter zones are safe bubbles divorced from the real rules of eve. So a starting player does not get to experience being ganked until later in his career - so instead of losing an ibis in a starter zone they loss a faction bs which they bought with plex in a lvl4 mission system. Since they hadnt been hazed early in their career and no one told them about pvp in their tutorial new player experience - they had no idea that they could be ganked and when they lose that faction bs they rage and maybe quit. By making eve starter systems more safe and friendly - all ccp did was make the lessons harder to swallow in the long run.

PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#255 - 2016-08-31 17:10:59 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
I have a question regarding scalabillity of multi-boxing alpha accounts - specifically, how you plan to address it? Two examples will illustrate the issue concisely:


1) I'm in a medium fac war plex on my omega main, say in a Gila. I also have 4 alpha accounts with me in tech 1 fitted Griffins/Blackbirds. Individually, these low skilled tech 1 ewar alts are pretty crap, but taken together they can be quite oppressive - especially against solo roamers. Would this not lead to a fairly cancerous meta where everyone is packing an essentially free backup fleet of ewar/logi for their mains?



2) With regards to ratting - Alphas are allowed to use ships up to and including cruisers. A T1 vexor with 5M SP can easily put out 200-300 dps if not more. What's to stop me from running sanctums/havens with 20 of these T1 vexors? The drones will auto target rats, 20 vexors will have no issues tanking any anom, and the running costs of each alpha account are essentially zero. Doesn't this open the floodgates for isk faucets?
Debbie Jellinsky
Probe Launcher Offline
#256 - 2016-08-31 17:11:06 UTC
Boy, you thought the trade hub locals were a **** show before... we'll see endless new scammers, ads, junk links - who knows what else.
Zappity
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#257 - 2016-08-31 17:11:19 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:
I hope CCP reconsiders locking Alpha Clones into a single race.

I quite like it. It gives some meaning (albeit short-lived if you upgrade) to race selection. It also gives the new player another reason to subscribe.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#258 - 2016-08-31 17:11:26 UTC
omega clone master race!

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Atrum Veneficus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#259 - 2016-08-31 17:12:42 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
This is a great idea and I can already see several potential uses for the alpha clones.

I would have one feature request however:

Much like Dust players were visually distinct in local, can we have some kind of similar visual cue to recognize alpha clone players? We don't necessarily have to go to the striking visual extremes of Dust players, a simple icon or badge would suffice. Pirate


Edit: Inappropriate content removed, CCP Phantom
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#260 - 2016-08-31 17:13:01 UTC
For the folks saying F2P won't actually help new players, I disagree.

I work with new players a lot, and one of the common concerns I (and others) have had is that, with the current 14- / 21-day trials, new players just don't have the ability to become invested in the game. That isn't enough time to socialize with people and get to know them while also learning about a game that's unlike any other they've ever played. Once their trial has ended, most people aren't going to continue looking into a game that they've already experienced.

EVE is a huge game and it has many, many facets to it. For many new players, however, those facets largely stop at mining in highsec. They aren't around long enough to learn more about what's available in the game, and with a lack of emphasis on socializing and often staying in the same new-player systems, they lose out on a lot of interaction with vets who could talk to them about the deeper topics.

How many people are likely to stick around after the trial period if they have to pay $15 / month to mine in a Venture in highsec? Not too many. Extended trials, or even this F2P method, would allow them to stick around longer, giving them a much higher chance of encountering vets who can help them or at the very least learning more about what EVE has to offer.

If done right, this has a chance to have a huge impact on improving the lives of new players, if only because it gives them a chance to actually experience more of EVE without making them pay to learn the basics. More time in the game means more chances to meet others and to socialize, which itself will lead to more people sticking around. EVE is a fun game when played with others, but can be awful when playing solo. This, hopefully, can help alleviate the tight time constraint to overload them in such a short window of time.